[FredA]

@Currawong it would be great if you can discuss this issue of how and where the R-28 does its ‘native’ DSD and PCM decoding and playback when you do your R-28 review (or preview). Really looking forward to that one! Any idea when you’re getting one?

Well Kingwa states it on his website: pcm and dsd are supported natively. I trust Kingwa and know by experience that when switching to dsd, there is a subtle noise in the transition indicating an increased operation frequency. Another clue is the sound is totally different. Would not be the case with a conversion to pcm. These clues are enough for me to draw a conclusion.

 

[gLer]

As soon as the current batch gets off the testing rack. I'll ask Kingwa about DSD decoding.

Thanks that would be great! I’ve asked before but didn’t manage to decode his response. He is super responsive though, would be an honour to meet him one day.

 

[gLer]

Well Kingwa states it on his website: pcm and dsd are supported natively. I trust Kingwa and know by experience that when switching to dsd, there is a subtle noise in the transition indicating an increased operation frequency. Another clue is the sound is totally different. Would not be the case with a conversion to pcm. These clues are enough for me to draw a conclusion.

I have no doubt DSD and PCM are processed differently, it would just be interesting to understand exactly how it’s done in the R-28 and the other AGD ladder dacs. I do know the Amanero board is responsible for DSD ‘conversion’, but where it goes from there (and in which format) is anyone’s guess. I wonder if the info is proprietary and something Kingwa would even be willing to share.

As an aside, I’m one of the R2R-11 users that pointed out the critical noise flaw in that unit’s DSD playback, which makes some but not all DSD files unplayable on the R2R-11 due to unacceptable noise levels. Won’t go into detail here as it’s not part of this thread, but hoping any such issues are non-existent on the R-28.

 

[FredA]

I have no doubt DSD and PCM are processed differently, it would just be interesting to understand exactly how it’s done in the R-28 and the other AGD ladder dacs. I do know the Amanero board is responsible for DSD ‘conversion’, but where it goes from there (and in which format) is anyone’s guess. I wonder if the info is proprietary and something Kingwa would even be willing to share.

As an aside, I’m one of the R2R-11 users that pointed out the critical noise flaw in that unit’s DSD playback, which makes some but not all DSD files unplayable on the R2R-11 due to unacceptable noise levels. Won’t go into detail here as it’s not part of this thread, but hoping any such issues are non-existent on the R-28.

Amanero passes dsd through. Does not convert as far as specifications mention. So you are left with either the da-7 or da-8 board doing a conversion or not. I know they dont't. But i am interested in the details as well.

 

[FredA]

Could also be the dsp doing the job for dacs that have it. But it's not. To different a sound.

 

[xenithon]

A few points to consider in this interesting discussion:
- There is a difference between DSD "decoding" and DSD "transport" as the two are often confused. The transport can be a native to the chip where it is decoded, or it can be DSD encapsulated in a PCM stream (DoP)
- An R2R chip cannot, as far as I know, do both the DSD and PCM conversion to analog. These are typically always separate - ranging from the likes of a Denafrips Ares (R2R DAC for PCM and proprietary 6-bit ladder DAC for native DSD), through to something like a Holo Audio Cyan (which has either a PCM module and headamp module, or a PCM module and DSD DAC module - the DAC doing the conversion for PCM and DSD are different)
- Where confusion can also be created is that manufacturer's typically do not specify where the conversion takes place, whether it be native or not. So if DSD is natively converted by the Amanero board, it can still be labeled as doing native DSD

 

[wietschebehr]

Subscribed. This is about to get interesting!

NFB-1 Amp owner here. Still trying to figure out if R2R-1 is worth it to get and complete the 1-stack. Since the stack and the R-28 are closely related, this will be very insightful indeed. Especially the DSD talks.

My opinion so far is that the NFB-1 is a stellar amp. I do however miss that warmer and sightly bass biased sound of the R2R-11. I am not sure if it was the AMP or DAC section of the R2R-11 (or maybe the combo's integrated design) that gave it that property. The R2R-11 DAC output to another amp did not quite have that same sound signature, if I can remember correctly..

So I have some questions - can someone describe the sound of the latest R2R dacs from Audio-gd, and, is it possible that the R2R-1 and R-28 DACs will inject that warmer magical analog sound I remember from the R2R-11 into my amplifier and ears?

Cheers,
W

 

[FredA]

A few points to consider in this interesting discussion:
- There is a difference between DSD "decoding" and DSD "transport" as the two are often confused. The transport can be a native to the chip where it is decoded, or it can be DSD encapsulated in a PCM stream (DoP)
- An R2R chip cannot, as far as I know, do both the DSD and PCM conversion to analog. These are typically always separate - ranging from the likes of a Denafrips Ares (R2R DAC for PCM and proprietary 6-bit ladder DAC for native DSD), through to something like a Holo Audio Cyan (which has either a PCM module and headamp module, or a PCM module and DSD DAC module - the DAC doing the conversion for PCM and DSD are different)
- Where confusion can also be created is that manufacturer's typically do not specify where the conversion takes place, whether it be native or not. So if DSD is natively converted by the Amanero board, it can still be labeled as doing native DSD

A ladder can do dsd playback if switched fast enough. It has to be designed to respond fast enough to be switched in the MHz. Denafrips does it with a 6-bit ladder, still a ladder.
The amenero does no dsd conversion to pcm (don't count dsd over pcm as pcm, i don't think it does that either).. The r2r 7 and r2r 1 support dsd through i2s, so forget the amanero for them. Dsd converted to pcm sounds like pcm. Dsd makes my dac sounds like a delta-sigma. Native dsd playback being stated as a feature in a product description can't mean anything other than an actual dsd playback handled by the conversion board/chip as such.

 

[capetownwatches]

Subscribed. This is about to get interesting!

NFB-1 Amp owner here. Still trying to figure out if R2R-1 is worth it to get and complete the 1-stack. Since the stack and the R-28 are closely related, this will be very insightful indeed. Especially the DSD talks.

My opinion so far is that the NFB-1 is a stellar amp. I do however miss that warmer and sightly bass biased sound of the R2R-11. I am not sure if it was the AMP or DAC section of the R2R-11 (or maybe the combo's integrated design) that gave it that property. The R2R-11 DAC output to another amp did not quite have that same sound signature, if I can remember correctly..

So I have some questions - can someone describe the sound of the latest R2R dacs from Audio-gd, and, is it possible that the R2R-1 and R-28 DACs will inject that warmer magical analog sound I remember from the R2R-11 into my amplifier and ears?

Cheers,
W

Hi Wietsche!

Nice to see you here.

Remind us again which DAC(s) you are currently using with the NFB1?

 

[FredA]

Subscribed. This is about to get interesting!

NFB-1 Amp owner here. Still trying to figure out if R2R-1 is worth it to get and complete the 1-stack. Since the stack and the R-28 are closely related, this will be very insightful indeed. Especially the DSD talks.

My opinion so far is that the NFB-1 is a stellar amp. I do however miss that warmer and sightly bass biased sound of the R2R-11. I am not sure if it was the AMP or DAC section of the R2R-11 (or maybe the combo's integrated design) that gave it that property. The R2R-11 DAC output to another amp did not quite have that same sound signature, if I can remember correctly..

So I have some questions - can someone describe the sound of the latest R2R dacs from Audio-gd, and, is it possible that the R2R-1 and R-28 DACs will inject that warmer magical analog sound I remember from the R2R-11 into my amplifier and ears?

Cheers,
W

The interconnect you choose has a significant impact on the signature you get. This being said, maybe the r2r 1 used in nos mode could be close enough with a properly chosen cable. Email Kingwa. For one thing, my r2r 7 combined to the nfb-1amp sounds even warmer than the r2r 11 because of the hp extension cablei use. The main thing you will get going up the ladder is a more dynamic sound. At first, i liked the r2r 11 even more than my r2r-7/nfb-1amp stack. But now that i am finished with the tweaking, the stack is safely on top, as it should.

 

[FredA]

Just one thing missing on the r-28: a mode swtich to go from NOS to OS mode. Really nice feature the r2r 1 and r2r 2 have.

 

[gLer]

Just one thing missing on the r-28: a mode swtich to go from NOS to OS mode. Really nice feature the r2r 1 and r2r 2 have.

This is true, although all the modes are still available via jumpers. I guess they had to leave something out!

 

[wietschebehr]

Hi Wietsche!

Nice to see you here.

Remind us again which DAC(s) you are currently using with the NFB1?

Hi A!

Yes! Same here!

Well, I had/have a range of DACs connected to the NFB1, comparing and swapping out extensively. Schiit Modi Multibit, NuPrime uDSD, Allo Boss Player, Allo DigiOne Player (feeding other dacs), Audio-GD R2R-11 and a Breeze Audio Sabre ES9018S DSD DAC.

Currently, my favourite paring with NFB1 Amp are the following:

• Allo DigiOne Player feeding the Breeze Audio DAC via COAX for a very detailed but brighter sound, and this is lovely on acoustic and classical music
• and then the Allo Boss Player feeding RCAs straight into the NFB1 that gives the lovely warm full bodied Burr Brown sound that I prefer more for long listening sessions and to get lost with my favorite female vocal artists.

@FredA: Thanks for your inputs, very much appreciated. The above 2 options use exactly the same interconnects that I have extensively tested to have the same sound and compared them to some serious snake oil cables and some top quality Cardas and Mogami cables that sounded exactly the same. These cables are so short (30cm) that I also think it makes minor differences to sound when you have at least good quality cables to start with. My intention will be to eventually connect the stack with the ACSS cables to get rid of the RCAs and the extra current to voltage conversions.

The R2R-11 had the best of the 2 options above. Detailed like with the sabre dac, but still warm and bassy sounding like the Boss. But somehow this does not carry over so nicely to the NFB1 amp when used as a DAC only. And yes it could be the interconnects as FredA pointed out.. I think its just better on its own as per main design intentions, at least in SE mode. I think it was driving my headphones at least as good as the NFB1 in SE mode.

I believe that it is possible for the R2R-1 with its easy filter/mode switching to be able to replace all my DAC options at once and be my final DAC. But I am not yet sure of this and reluctant to fork out my hard earned cash for it. Shipping to our country wrecks havoc to the value proposition of most imports due to various reasons... So it should be a clear upgrade and immediately noticeable, or its not worth it for me. Its just a pity that good reviews and impressions/comparisons of these 2 Audio-GD R2R DACs are so scarce. I can't wait for someone like Currawong to pull the R2R-1 and R-28 apart and delve deeply into them for a review and reputation I can trust.

So I am very keen to hear any R2R-1 and R-28 news and impressions/comparisons.

Thanks guys! I never manage to keep it short... but its almost weekend!

Cheers,
W

 

[FredA]

Hi A!

Yes! Same here!

Well, I had/have a range of DACs connected to the NFB1, comparing and swapping out extensively. Schiit Modi Multibit, NuPrime uDSD, Allo Boss Player, Allo DigiOne Player (feeding other dacs), Audio-GD R2R-11 and a Breeze Audio Sabre ES9018S DSD DAC.

Currently, my favourite paring with NFB1 Amp are the following:

• Allo DigiOne Player feeding the Breeze Audio DAC via COAX for a very detailed but brighter sound, and this is lovely on acoustic and classical music
• and then the Allo Boss Player feeding RCAs straight into the NFB1 that gives the lovely warm full bodied Burr Brown sound that I prefer more for long listening sessions and to get lost with my favorite female vocal artists.

@FredA: Thanks for your inputs, very much appreciated. The above 2 options use exactly the same interconnects that I have extensively tested to have the same sound and compared them to some serious snake oil cables and some top quality Cardas and Mogami cables that sounded exactly the same. These cables are so short (30cm) that I also think it makes minor differences to sound when you have at least good quality cables to start with. My intention will be to eventually connect the stack with the ACSS cables to get rid of the RCAs and the extra current to voltage conversions.

The R2R-11 had the best of the 2 options above. Detailed like with the sabre dac, but still warm and bassy sounding like the Boss. But somehow this does not carry over so nicely to the NFB1 amp when used as a DAC only. And yes it could be the interconnects as FredA pointed out.. I think its just better on its own as per main design intentions, at least in SE mode. I think it was driving my headphones at least as good as the NFB1 in SE mode.

I believe that it is possible for the R2R-1 with its easy filter/mode switching to be able to replace all my DAC options at once and be my final DAC. But I am not yet sure of this and reluctant to fork out my hard earned cash for it. Shipping to our country wrecks havoc to the value proposition of most imports due to various reasons... So it should be a clear upgrade and immediately noticeable, or its not worth it for me. Its just a pity that good reviews and impressions/comparisons of these 2 Audio-GD R2R DACs are so scarce. I can't wait for someone like Currawong to pull the R2R-1 and R-28 apart and delve deeply into them for a review and reputation I can trust.

So I am very keen to hear any R2R-1 and R-28 news and impressions/comparisons.

Thanks guys! I never manage to keep it short... but its almost weekend!

Cheers,
W

If you nfb-1 is still new, it could gain some treble with time. I use a slightly bright cable with mine: audio art ic-3 in balanced version. Good choice if you need to boost the treble a bit. And cheap enough. Needs 150 hours of burning... Ms-audio (ebay) has very good, even better cables for not much more. The litz struture silver cable is excellent.

 

[wietschebehr]

If you nfb-1 is still new, it could gain some treble with time. I use a slightly bright cable with mine: audio art ic-3 in balanced version. Good choice if you need to boost the treble a bit. And cheap enough.

Yes, its still very new. Will keep that in mind thanks.