[thebkt]

I wouldn’t worry. The ‘stack’ has some advantages too, like separate discrete power supplies for the amp and dac, more inputs and outputs, and NOS/OS front panel controls. The sound will be virtually identical, so you’re not missing out on anything.

Plus, you've got the option to easily upgrade either amp or DAC should you trip over and land in a pile of money at some point

 

[gLer]

I'm interested in both the amp section and the DAC. I'm one of those that like to experiment and try everything. So what does the R-28 do better than other amps / dacs that you've owned.

Well it’s still early days but already the R-28 is proving to be a significant upgrade over my previous favorite dac/amp, the Audio-gd R2R-11. I’m finding it has more resolution, clarity and a wider soundstage with each of my headphones, by virtue of the headphones themselves scaling up nicely with the better amp/dac sections.

The R2R-11 was never lacking, but having only one mode (NOS) you either liked the smoother, perhaps slightly less detailed sound, or you didn’t. With the R-28 I can swap between three NOS modes and multiple OS modes to find a great balance between accurate/organic, neutral/warm etc. This does involve opening up the top and changing jumpers, but it’s not that much of a deal.

Ultimately I’ll settle on one preferred mode and keep it that way, and to my surprise that’s currently OS 8x mode. I’m enjoying the slightly more neutral, highly resolving, noise free, punchy sound in this mode, especially with my warm of neutral headphones. It’s almost a blend of an accurate delta sigma dac with the musicality of a ladder.

The amp section is very transparent and insanely powerful with all my headphones, so I’m never in doubt if they’re getting enough juice. The only slight kink is that I’m not finding the synergy between the R-28 and 300-ohm Atticus as good as it was with the R2R-11, and as a result may be trimming my trifecta of headphones from three to two in the near future.

 

[gLer]

Plus, you've got the option to easily upgrade either amp or DAC should you trip over and land in a pile of money at some point

There’s always that. Of course you can do the same without discarding the R-28...

 

[gLer]

@gLer makes a good point. I do like being able to switch between 8x OS for hip-hop, modern pop and EDM, and NOS for just about everything else on the R2R-1.

It’s a bit strange that Kingwa didn’t add this functionality to the R-28. It’s not like he was lacking space on the front panel. Minor gripe, but life goes on.

 

[wietschebehr]

I wouldn’t worry. The ‘stack’ has some advantages too, like separate discrete power supplies for the amp and dac, more inputs and outputs, and NOS/OS front panel controls. The sound will be virtually identical, so you’re not missing out on anything.

I can add some more differences to consider between the R28 and NFB1/R2R1 Stack that is not necessarily sound and feature related:

Size:
@gLer mentioned that the R28 takes less space. It's not entirely true, but I know what he means. The R28 takes about one and a half the table space of a single NFB1/R2R1 unit. The NFB1 and R2R1 next to each other is a third larger with same height as the R28. BUT, the stack configuration takes double the height while using less table space. If you have lots of vertical space but limited horizontal space (say a small table), the stack would actually take up less usable space. Unless you do a vertical placement of the R28 like someone did early in this thread

Looks:
The stack however is 2 units with lots of cables at the back that could look bad if not managed well, where the R28 is a super clean single unit that will work 100% with only 2 wires connected (power and digital audio input) and there are obvious benefits like possibly less interference noise induced in the cables, and no need for good quality interconnect cables with the R28.

Upgradability:
Single units are fixed packages and upgradability is limited where you will have to sell the whole unit to change something. Of course you can just buy more equipment to plug it into the R28 (as it has all the inputs and outputs you need) if you have the money and don't need to sell to upgrade. But then you end up with a stack anyway that is now even larger. I don't think amps advance so quickly as DACs, and if like me, you will be into digital audio for a long time, you will probably want to upgrade the DAC in a couple of years and really want to keep your well run-in and great sounding mature amp.

Marketability:
Larger units with higher prices might sell more difficult than smaller lower priced pieces due to less people in the market with available cash. Even though the stack is more expensive combined, you might find it much easier to sell the amp and/or dac separately, making an upgrade easier for yourself and the buyer. There are lots of guys building up to a dream system, piece by piece as they manage to save some money, and are at different stages of the journey. So it will change hands quicker I believe.


For me personally, I will gladly rather wait and save up a bit more and buy the Audio-GD 1 Stack for the above reasons, especially if it sounds identical to the R28. I don't think the one is better than the other, but you have to take all the mentioned points and apply to your own environment, your personality and what your future plans are with your system. What works for you will not work for everyone else. I've seen @gLer 's setup and have an idea what he likes. The R28 fits him perfectly.

Cheers,
W

 

[gLer]

I can add some more differences to consider between the R28 and NFB1/R2R1 Stack that is not necessarily sound and feature related:

Size:
@gLer mentioned that the R28 takes less space. It's not entirely true, but I know what he means. The R28 takes about one and a half the table space of a single NFB1/R2R1 unit. The NFB1 and R2R1 next to each other is a third larger with same height as the R28. BUT, the stack configuration takes double the height while using less table space. If you have lots of vertical space but limited horizontal space (say a small table), the stack would actually take up less usable space. Unless you do a vertical placement of the R28 like someone did early in this thread

Looks:
The stack however is 2 units with lots of cables at the back that could look bad if not managed well, where the R28 is a super clean single unit that will work 100% with only 2 wires connected (power and digital audio input) and there are obvious benefits like possibly less interference noise induced in the cables, and no need for good quality interconnect cables with the R28.

Upgradability:
Single units are fixed packages and upgradability is limited where you will have to sell the whole unit to change something. Of course you can just buy more equipment to plug it into the R28 (as it has all the inputs and outputs you need) if you have the money and don't need to sell to upgrade. But then you end up with a stack anyway that is now even larger. I don't think amps advance so quickly as DACs, and if like me, you will be into digital audio for a long time, you will probably want to upgrade the DAC in a couple of years and really want to keep your well run-in and great sounding mature amp.

Marketability:
Larger units with higher prices might sell more difficult than smaller lower priced pieces due to less people in the market with available cash. Even though the stack is more expensive combined, you might find it much easier to sell the amp and/or dac separately, making an upgrade easier for yourself and the buyer. There are lots of guys building up to a dream system, piece by piece as they manage to save some money, and are at different stages of the journey. So it will change hands quicker I believe.


For me personally, I will gladly rather wait and save up a bit more and buy the Audio-GD 1 Stack for the above reasons, especially if it sounds identical to the R28. I don't think the one is better than the other, but you have to take all the mentioned points and apply to your own environment, your personality and what your future plans are with your system. What works for you will not work for everyone else. I've seen @gLer 's setup and have an idea what he likes. The R28 fits him perfectly.

Cheers,
W

Well said and expertly articulated Wietsche. Valid points all. I would add the given how much some people spend on cables (digital, audio and power), the actual cost of the stack would likely be considerably higher than the purchase price itself. You did allude to that above,, but I think it's worth emphasising.

 

[Gambitek]

Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?

 

[capetownwatches]

I can add some more differences to consider between the R28 and NFB1/R2R1 Stack that is not necessarily sound and feature related:

Size:
@gLer mentioned that the R28 takes less space. It's not entirely true, but I know what he means. The R28 takes about one and a half the table space of a single NFB1/R2R1 unit. The NFB1 and R2R1 next to each other is a third larger with same height as the R28. BUT, the stack configuration takes double the height while using less table space. If you have lots of vertical space but limited horizontal space (say a small table), the stack would actually take up less usable space. Unless you do a vertical placement of the R28 like someone did early in this thread

Looks:
The stack however is 2 units with lots of cables at the back that could look bad if not managed well, where the R28 is a super clean single unit that will work 100% with only 2 wires connected (power and digital audio input) and there are obvious benefits like possibly less interference noise induced in the cables, and no need for good quality interconnect cables with the R28.

Upgradability:
Single units are fixed packages and upgradability is limited where you will have to sell the whole unit to change something. Of course you can just buy more equipment to plug it into the R28 (as it has all the inputs and outputs you need) if you have the money and don't need to sell to upgrade. But then you end up with a stack anyway that is now even larger. I don't think amps advance so quickly as DACs, and if like me, you will be into digital audio for a long time, you will probably want to upgrade the DAC in a couple of years and really want to keep your well run-in and great sounding mature amp.

Marketability:
Larger units with higher prices might sell more difficult than smaller lower priced pieces due to less people in the market with available cash. Even though the stack is more expensive combined, you might find it much easier to sell the amp and/or dac separately, making an upgrade easier for yourself and the buyer. There are lots of guys building up to a dream system, piece by piece as they manage to save some money, and are at different stages of the journey. So it will change hands quicker I believe.


For me personally, I will gladly rather wait and save up a bit more and buy the Audio-GD 1 Stack for the above reasons, especially if it sounds identical to the R28. I don't think the one is better than the other, but you have to take all the mentioned points and apply to your own environment, your personality and what your future plans are with your system. What works for you will not work for everyone else. I've seen @gLer 's setup and have an idea what he likes. The R28 fits him perfectly.

Cheers,
W

All very good points, but you missed two: a stack is better 'cos there's more stuff to play with, like cables and (usually) more buttons and switches, and secondly, an imposing stack is always sexier than a single box...

 

[gLer]

Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?

The R-28 is definitely different enough that you'd pass a double blind test between the two, especially with headphones that can take advantage of the better hardware in the R-28.

How much better though is subjective. Definitely not 3x better sound, but that’s just the law of dininishing returns. Past a certain point you’re paying twice the price for single digit ‘improvements’ and those improvements are often just a change in flavour rather than technical proficiency.

Is an LCD-3 worth twice the price of an LCD-2? That depends. It’s not ‘twice as good’ but it’s appreciably better in key aspects. Same with the R-28 and R2R-11.

But the differences go beyond sound quality alone. For example you can’t plug an external dac into the R2R-11 and just use the amp section, because it has no analogue inputs. That’s a dealbreaker for many people and could be reason alone to spend extra on something like an R-28. The R-28 is also fully balanced (and more powerful in that mode), so if you have headphones that can take advantage of the extra power and technicalities of a balanced connection, that’s another tick. It also has a bigger and more powerful power supply, which makes a big difference to the overall sound and other aspects of operation. It has a relay based volume dial, which some prefer. It has multiple NOS and OS modes, so is far more flexible. I can go on but you get the point.

Sound quality-wise I never found the R2R-11 lacking at all. In fact I sold a bunch of more expensive gear once I heard it. As a dac it can keep up with dacs costing more than twice as much, so much so that the (excellent) amp is almost a free bonus. But it has its limitations, and if you want to go past those limitations, you have to pay for it.

Personally I’d have to pay at least twice as much as the R-28 to move up a few ticks in sound quality, which would be subtle at best. Twice the price of the R-28 is well beyond what I’d want to pay for an amp and dac, and so it makes sense that the R-28 is the end of the line for me - at least until something significantly better comes along for the same money.

 

[alota]

the question is simple: some people love separate, some people integrated. i had separate components in the past and was annoyed with space, cables, etc. today only integrated stuffs

 

[Gambitek]

The R-28 is definitely different enough that you'd pass a double blind test between the two, especially with headphones that can take advantage of the better hardware in the R-28.

How much better though is subjective. Definitely not 3x better sound, but that’s just the law of dininishing returns. Past a certain point you’re paying twice the price for single digit ‘improvements’ and those improvements are often just a change in flavour rather than technical proficiency.

Is an LCD-3 worth twice the price of an LCD-2? That depends. It’s not ‘twice as good’ but it’s appreciably better in key aspects. Same with the R-28 and R2R-11.

But the differences go beyond sound quality alone. For example you can’t plug an external dac into the R2R-11 and just use the amp section, because it has no analogue inputs. That’s a dealbreaker for many people and could be reason alone to spend extra on something like an R-28. The R-28 is also fully balanced (and more powerful in that mode), so if you have headphones that can take advantage of the extra power and technicalities of a balanced connection, that’s another tick. It also has a bigger and more powerful power supply, which makes a big difference to the overall sound and other aspects of operation. It has a relay based volume dial, which some prefer. It has multiple NOS and OS modes, so is far more flexible. I can go on but you get the point.

Sound quality-wise I never found the R2R-11 lacking at all. In fact I sold a bunch of more expensive gear once I heard it. As a dac it can keep up with dacs costing more than twice as much, so much so that the (excellent) amp is almost a free bonus. But it has its limitations, and if you want to go past those limitations, you have to pay for it.

Personally I’d have to pay at least twice as much as the R-28 to move up a few ticks in sound quality, which would be subtle at best. Twice the price of the R-28 is well beyond what I’d want to pay for an amp and dac, and so it makes sense that the R-28 is the end of the line for me - at least until something significantly better comes along for the same money.

Thanks for the feedback. Would balanced really make a difference, though? AudioGD says they have the same power delivery from both balanced and SE.

 

[PopZeus]

Thanks to everyone who answered my earlier questions. Honestly, how big of a difference is it between the R2R-11 and R-28? I'm doubting it's 3x better sound (the cost), but would someone be able to pass a blind A/B?

There's almost a universal law of diminishing returns with audiophile gear. The biggest gap in quality is between $20-$350, not $350-$700. But I'd rather pay for more technical improvements, knowing the musicality was intact and only boosted by the better specs. As opposed to taking a risk on both the tonality/musicality as well as the technical performance (specs).

 

[gLer]

Thanks for the feedback. Would balanced really make a difference, though? AudioGD says they have the same power delivery from both balanced and SE.

That was previously the case, but Kingwa took ‘S’ mode out before the R-28 shipped as it apparently compromised sound quality. So balanced is quite a bit more powerful than SE (and the website text that says otherwise is incorrect). Whether or not balanced improves the sound in other ways...that’s a bigger discussion. You’ll have to trust your ears on that one.

 

[gLer]

There's almost a universal law of diminishing returns with audiophile gear. The biggest gap in quality is between $20-$350, not $350-$700. But I'd rather pay for more technical improvements, knowing the musicality was intact and only boosted by the better specs. As opposed to taking a risk on both the tonality/musicality as well as the technical performance (specs).

Agreed. It also depends on the transducers you’re using, be they speakers or headphones. If you’re only buying $200 headphones it’s probably prudent not to spend too big on an amp or dac because your headphones likely won’t know the difference (unless they’re made to scale, like the Sennheiser 6x0 series). But if you’re buying $1000, $2000 or $3000 headphones it’s a bit silly to skimp on an amp and dac and not take advantage of everything your expensive cans can do. Of course there’s a balance to be struck somewhere, and everyone will have a different view on it, but that’s my take anyway.

 

[Gambitek]

Yeah I'm running Blackwood Auteurs out of an R2R-11 and I'm wonder if the R-28 would noticeably improve my experience.