[dukja]

Thanks!  Great info to bear in mind.
 
Actually, I never feel my Phoenix + Ref 7 to be too dark and they are perfect for DT880 and T1.  It is just LCD2 is "less bright" and hence my concern.
 
The only thing appeals me was maybe additional bass impact and weight.  Again, I have no complain on my current system at all.  The bass I had now is very solid and deep.  But you know, people always curious about apples on the other tree. 

 
However, I would not trade the openness (opposite of congestion) and focusing with additional bass since bass was not significant component in my music genre.

 
Quote:

If you're happy with the tonal balance of the T1...the HD650 is a definitive downgrade
 
Me personally, I don't think the LCD2 is too dark with anything - NOS dacs and warms amps sound good to me with the LCD2   The Phoenix and Reference 7 combo is not dark in anyway whatsoever...my BCL amp is brighter, yet for me it was less able to retrieve ambient cues that exist in the upper frequencies.  Nor is the combo tube like warm, although I feel it has the staging and imaging advantage that I thought was exclusive to tubes.  I think more burn-in with both combos have had the combo seriously "opening" up and my initial impressions are a lot different to what I think now. 
 
VRLN had exactly the same setup as I did...with Norse Audio balance cable as well...but he had serious problems with "congestion" with the LCD2 and sold them...yet he had no such sensation with the HD650, so I can't say for sure how you will feel.
 
I see you have T1 and DT880...if you have a complaint that they are too bright then I would say the LCD2 is worth a shot, if you like them then I say the T1 is up there in the bigger scheme of things alongside the LCD2 and HD800.
 

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Thanks!  Great info to bear in mind.
 
Actually, I never feel my Phoenix + Ref 7 to be too dark and they are perfect for DT880 and T1.  It is just LCD2 is "less bright" and hence my concern.
 
The only thing appeals me was maybe additional bass impact and weight.  Again, I have no complain on my current system at all.  The bass I had now is very solid and deep.  But you know, people always curious about apples on the other tree. 

 
However, I would not trade the openness (opposite of congestion) and focusing with additional bass since bass was not significant component in my music genre.

 

 

When I had the T1 with me, the best thing about them was its unique bass presentation style - the HD800 and LCD2 has the same "airy" bass type presentation, the T1 had a very alluring pleasant "flicky" bass, one which I could not EQ into either the HD800 or LCD2...it was the T1s most memorable feature.
 
On a different note, what volumes do you guys listen at.  For me it is as follows (all balanced and at the 99 scale)
 
D7000 - 1
HD650 - 3
K701 - 4
LCD2 - 3
 
Thats for background music, I can listen forever with no fatigue (most of my headtime).  For enthusiastic levels and testing anywhere between 18-30 on indulgent occassions - after which I suffer temporary hearing loss afterwards - but its worth it!  For a one hour session, probably between 8-14.
 
I originally only used the 70 scale, but when I balanced the D7000, I needed that lower volume of the 99 scale.  It also dawned on me that all those individual resistors might need burning in?

 

[dukja]

Thanks! Good to know that.
Quote:

When I had the T1 with me, the best thing about them was its unique bass presentation style - the HD800 and LCD2 has the same "airy" bass type presentation, the T1 had a very alluring pleasant "flicky" bass, one which I could not EQ into either the HD800 or LCD2...it was the T1s most memorable feature.

 
My listening level is about 70~80 dB.  And I use 70 levels with my Phoenix (the difference on 70 & 99 was very controversial).  The level I used are:
             classical recording      modern hot recording
T1                     12                               09
DT880               14                               11
 
My T1 with 03/77 level has only about 60 dB with modern hot recording.  My DT880/600 need most voltage gain (level) to drive in all my experience (DT880/250, HD600, K702, T1).
 
Quote:

On a different note, what volumes do you guys listen at.  For me it is as follows (all balanced and at the 99 scale)
 
D7000 - 1
HD650 - 3
K701 - 4
LCD2 - 3
 
Thats for background music, I can listen forever with no fatigue (most of my headtime).  For enthusiastic levels and testing anywhere between 18-30 on indulgent occassions - after which I suffer temporary hearing loss afterwards - but its worth it!  For a one hour session, probably between 8-14.
 
I originally only used the 70 scale, but when I balanced the D7000, I needed that lower volume of the 99 scale.  It also dawned on me that all those individual resistors might need burning in?

 

[vrln]

Agreed. If you have no problem with the T1 tonality, you will probably not like the HD 650. That said, you might not like the LCD-2 either. T1 is really good at the "out of head" soundstage. About LCD-2 darkness, I don´t think it was all that dark on the Phoenix either. There are quite a few here who absolutely love the Phoenix/LCD-2 combo. My problem with the LCD2/Phoenix combo wasn´t really in any way related to what the Phoenix sound signature does. It´s usually considered an amp that opens up the soundstage. The LCD-2´s issues, if you ask me, are (1) the soundstage, (2) severely recessed highs and (3) the weight/design. It´s just not comfortable enough for daily PC use. You never for a second forget they are on. On the other hand I found the HD 650 clamp perfect, which a lot of people are not fond of. So it all depends on your head size etc.
 
I´ve also found that I almost value comfort as much as sonics in headphones. But the main issue was the soundstage performance. It felt like an IEM that´s trying to reach outside the head, but doesn´t manage to do it. It´s in an odd limbo stage, which I just couldn´t get used to. But I fully admit to being an open air style soundstage fan (diffuse field). The LCD-2 just isn´t that airy and wide, it´s a very intimate experience. The HD 650 is intimate too, and actually also shares the LCD-2´s high´s roll off, but it doesn´t overdo it. I feel the HD 650 is a better implementation of the sound signature the LCD-2 is aiming for. It isn´t as good as the T1 or HD 800 soundstaging wise, but it´s the critical league above the LCD-2 in that sector. It also has a far better sense of layering and depth. Oh and even with these flaws, if only the soundstaging was on the same level as the previous dynamic headphone flagships, I might have kept it. Judging from what I´ve read though, it seems orthos just can´t manage the out of head sound. I use headphones because I can´t use speakers that much - the closer my headphones get to the speaker experience, the better they are for me. The LCD-2 aims for something entirely different. You might love it though, it all depends on what you are looking for. For me, the main issue with the LCD-2 is just that the canvas the headphones "paint on", is just too small for me to really appreciate the detail.
 
By the way, I´m letting go of my Phoenix (if anyoe in the EU is reading this, feel free to message me about a potential sale) as I got a STAX deal I just couldn´t refuse. It´s a fantastic amplifier though, and I still stand by my view that the HD 650 + Phoenix is the best I´ve heard out of dynamics or orthos.
 
Last but not least, the LCD-2 are very cheap to try out. They sell out within 24 hours on the for sale forums usually, and at a price that´s pretty much almost the same Audeze asks for them.

 

[dukja]

@ vrln
 
Thanks a lot for your sharing.  I do love the tonality and soundstage of DT880/600 and T1.  Before T1, I have three DT880. 

 
My hesitation of getting LCD2 comes from the speculation that exactly you described.  Thanks for the help to ease my impulse of getting LCD2.

 
Sorry to see you leave Audio-GD's club.  Good luck and keep us updated on the STAX gear comparing with your old gear!
 
Quote:

Agreed. If you have no problem with the T1 tonality, you will probably not like the HD 650. That said, you might not like the LCD-2 either. T1 is really good at the "out of head" soundstage. About LCD-2 darkness, I don´t think it was all that dark on the Phoenix either. There are quite a few here who absolutely love the Phoenix/LCD-2 combo. My problem with the LCD2/Phoenix combo wasn´t really in any way related to what the Phoenix sound signature does. It´s usually considered an amp that opens up the soundstage. The LCD-2´s issues, if you ask me, are (1) the soundstage, (2) severely recessed highs and (3) the weight/design. It´s just not comfortable enough for daily PC use. You never for a second forget they are on. On the other hand I found the HD 650 clamp perfect, which a lot of people are not fond of. So it all depends on your head size etc.
 
I´ve also found that I almost value comfort as much as sonics in headphones. But the main issue was the soundstage performance. It felt like an IEM that´s trying to reach outside the head, but doesn´t manage to do it. It´s in an odd limbo stage, which I just couldn´t get used to. But I fully admit to being an open air style soundstage fan (diffuse field). The LCD-2 just isn´t that airy and wide, it´s a very intimate experience. The HD 650 is intimate too, and actually also shares the LCD-2´s high´s roll off, but it doesn´t overdo it. I feel the HD 650 is a better implementation of the sound signature the LCD-2 is aiming for. It isn´t as good as the T1 or HD 800 soundstaging wise, but it´s the critical league above the LCD-2 in that sector. It also has a far better sense of layering and depth. Oh and even with these flaws, if only the soundstaging was on the same level as the previous dynamic headphone flagships, I might have kept it. Judging from what I´ve read though, it seems orthos just can´t manage the out of head sound. I use headphones because I can´t use speakers that much - the closer my headphones get to the speaker experience, the better they are for me. The LCD-2 aims for something entirely different. You might love it though, it all depends on what you are looking for. For me, the main issue with the LCD-2 is just that the canvas the headphones "paint on", is just too small for me to really appreciate the detail.
 
By the way, I´m letting go of my Phoenix (if anyoe in the EU is reading this, feel free to message me about a potential sale) as I got a STAX deal I just couldn´t refuse. It´s a fantastic amplifier though, and I still stand by my view that the HD 650 + Phoenix is the best I´ve heard out of dynamics or orthos.
 
Last but not least, the LCD-2 are very cheap to try out. They sell out within 24 hours on the for sale forums usually, and at a price that´s pretty much almost the same Audeze asks for them.

 

[vrln]

I had the DT 880 too... They were too treble happy to me... If you like those, I think you´re in for a huge disappointment if you get the LCD-2 The LCD-2 is the exact opposite of those! If you can lend the HD 650, you can use those as a small test. If you like the HD 650 treble roll off, then the LCD-2 is like a more closed, smaller soundstage version of that tonality direction done even further (too far if you ask me, HD 650 does it well), along with more detail and better bass. If you want an "easy listening" headphone to complement the T1, the HD 650 is worth a try.
 
Oh I´m not leaving the Audio-gd club at all Actually I´m expanding my Kingwa product lineup... My speaker rig will be all Audio-gd: CD7 to NFB-8 to MASTER-1 to active monitors (Genelec). I´m just splitting my PC headphone rig. And my source for the STAX (PC rig) is the REF7/Digital Interface. It´s just the Phoenix I´m letting go. Might even get an NFB-11 or 12 for work. You can still count me as a fan My main issue with the Phoenix is that it´s very big, I don´t have the space for it on my PC desk. If Audio-gd could shrink the size to a smaller dual chassis build, while retaining the same sound quality, that would be a nice improvement. The Phoenix is just fantastic value and a great all rounder too.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

If the only problem you had with the HD600 is a "loose" and "unfocussed" sound, and not the tonal balance.  Then IMO, nothing fixes that, and the HD650 suffers the same fate...as I mentioned, there is virtually no resolution improvements with the HD650 from mid level amps/dacs to hi end amps/dacs - there will be plenty of soundstage improvements, but there is a limit on the HD650s drivers acceleration rate - which for me is heard as greater definition and transparency, and that limit is met by mid level equipment.
 
The LCD2 is very different in this regard, even if many categorise both headphones as a dark can.  For me, balancing does not increase resolution, it increases spatial perception, many will be able to perceive more details from a more spread out and less congested soundscape, but in my mind there is little change in resolution.  Tonal balances changes a touch, as it seems to me an extra layer of electronic haze is removed and the "blacker background" can also be interpreted as either a darker presentation or a smoother, more relaxed and natural presentation.  I subscribe to the latter.
 
IMO, the increase in slew rate by going balanced is not realised by todays transducers.  There is sometimes an increase in bass control due to the 100 percent increase in available power on standby in quick class A mode.  Come think of it, yes the bass does seem to tighten up going balanced.

Balanced mode IIRC controls both the + and the - excursion of the respective drivers...SE'd only controls the positive movements.
 
On another note planar based drivers can take quite a while to break in so early impressions will not match later impressions...the diaphragm/substrate material needs to be worked quite a bit before it's at it's best. The same thing happens with big planar drivers (ET and Maggies)...I've found it took around 500 hours to break the panels in fully...I would imagine planar cans are no different.
 
Peete.

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

Balanced mode IIRC controls both the + and the - excursion of the respective drivers...SE'd only controls the positive movements.
 
On another note planar based drivers can take quite a while to break in so early impressions will not match later impressions...the diaphragm/substrate material needs to be worked quite a bit before it's at it's best. The same thing happens with big planar drivers (ET and Maggies)...I've found it took around 500 hours to break the panels in fully...I would imagine planar cans are no different.
 
Peete.

500 hours seems to be a pretty common number with you haha
 

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

500 hours seems to be a pretty common number with you haha
 

Yeah you are right....interesting coincidence for sure
 
Peete.

 

[lmswjm]

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I went to the Fall NYC meet with my Audio-GD chain (CD7, Ref 1 & Phoenix) with the purpose of auditioning the LCD2 and HE6. The LCD2 was too treble shy for my taste. I loved the HE6 though. I also owned the orignal HE5. They both require about the same power. I would recommend the HE6 and Phoenix combo to all except those who listen loud. I listen to uncompressed music on my mod'd D7000's at about 20/70. With the same music, I could easily get into the 60's range on the Phoenix with the HE6 balanced. Of course this was all under "meet conditions". In the end I passed on the HE6 because I felt my custom D7000's were a lot more effortless with a similar signature with more thump. I would have liked to hear the HE6 on a speaker amp. The Phoenix definitely blew the EF5 out of the water. I was ready to buy the HE6 for a steal at the $899 meet price too. Good to see Brad posting again...........

 

[tim3320070]

D7000 Phoenix is a great combo that I will have to return to soon as I can. Currently can't seem to care to upgrade from my balanced DT770/600 with the Phoenix. Surprisingly good combo. I have always felt the Phoenix "tightens" up bass heavy cans like the two mentioned.

 

[dukja]

Thanks for the hint.  I had HE-5 for less than a month and have to return it.  Its tonality was just not my cup of tea.  I feel that DT880 surpassed it in every way.  That was also my hesitation for HE-6.
 
It is rather hard to hold on myself after being brainwashed by all the praises of those ortho in this board. 

  But I had my reasons.  Ortho's sound signature and their low impedance (for my CSP2+ is an OTL) may be the main reasons.

Good to know that you still have AG gears.
 
Quote:

I had the DT 880 too... They were too treble happy to me... If you like those, I think you´re in for a huge disappointment if you get the LCD-2 The LCD-2 is the exact opposite of those! If you can lend the HD 650, you can use those as a small test. If you like the HD 650 treble roll off, then the LCD-2 is like a more closed, smaller soundstage version of that tonality direction done even further (too far if you ask me, HD 650 does it well), along with more detail and better bass. If you want an "easy listening" headphone to complement the T1, the HD 650 is worth a try.
 
Oh I´m not leaving the Audio-gd club at all Actually I´m expanding my Kingwa product lineup... My speaker rig will be all Audio-gd: CD7 to NFB-8 to MASTER-1 to active monitors (Genelec). I´m just splitting my PC headphone rig. And my source for the STAX (PC rig) is the REF7/Digital Interface. It´s just the Phoenix I´m letting go. Might even get an NFB-11 or 12 for work. You can still count me as a fan My main issue with the Phoenix is that it´s very big, I don´t have the space for it on my PC desk. If Audio-gd could shrink the size to a smaller dual chassis build, while retaining the same sound quality, that would be a nice improvement. The Phoenix is just fantastic value and a great all rounder too.

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I went to the Fall NYC meet with my Audio-GD chain (CD7, Ref 1 & Phoenix) with the purpose of auditioning the LCD2 and HE6. The LCD2 was too treble shy for my taste. I loved the HE6 though. I also owned the orignal HE5. They both require about the same power. I would recommend the HE6 and Phoenix combo to all except those who listen loud. I listen to uncompressed music on my mod'd D7000's at about 20/70. With the same music, I could easily get into the 60's range on the Phoenix with the HE6 balanced. Of course this was all under "meet conditions". In the end I passed on the HE6 because I felt my custom D7000's were a lot more effortless with a similar signature with more thump. I would have liked to hear the HE6 on a speaker amp. The Phoenix definitely blew the EF5 out of the water. I was ready to buy the HE6 for a steal at the $899 meet price too. Good to see Brad posting again...........

I think the way the power works out the Phoenix actually outputs similar power as many speaker amps head-fiers are using.
 
2.3 watts at 50 ohms is way different than 8 ohm ratings. I could be wrong though.
 
I will have to compared my D7000 with my  HE-6 when I get the D7000 back. I don't know that they sound THAT similar but they do indeed have some common traits.
 
Just goes to show how good the D7000 really are if you could pass up a flagship ortho for them.
 

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Balanced mode IIRC controls both the + and the - excursion of the respective drivers...SE'd only controls the positive movements.
 

As I understand it, this is a common misconception.  A sinewave is an AC signal going from positive to negative - the graph picture always shows the wave crossing the 0 amplitude, or in an amplifiers case, 0 volts.  Then on its way from positive to negative, in voltages in the amplifiers case.  A 12 volt sine wave output would be an AC signal of +6 and -6 volts, regardless if the signal is dual differential or single ended.
 
This link explains it.
 
I understand voltage difference in the above and how it relates to common mode noise...but if anything I can't understand how a speaker knows to pull in or push out with a differential signal.  Perhaps someone can enlighten me.  I suspect that it's because of the 180 degree phase difference, the positive signal must start before the negative by half a period.  EDIT:  Come think about it, I don't think an inverted musical signal is delayed at all as in that sinewave example in the link - so anyone care to chime in with this hole in my understanding?

 

[lmswjm]

Quote:

I think the way the power works out the Phoenix actually outputs similar power as many speaker amps head-fiers are using.
 
2.3 watts at 50 ohms is way different than 8 ohm ratings. I could be wrong though.
 
I will have to compared my D7000 with my  HE-6 when I get the D7000 back. I don't know that they sound THAT similar but they do indeed have some common traits.
 
Just goes to show how good the D7000 really are if you could pass up a flagship ortho for them.
 

Actually the HE6, IMO, sounds much different and much better than a stock D7000. Before there was an HE6, I almost sold my D7K's in favor of the HE5, but ultimately the lack of bass in the HE5 compelled me to tinker with the D7K. If you change it to an open back design and also let air properly pass through under the earpads, you allow the powerful, congested drivers to open up and blossom. 
 
 
The Phoenix does power the HE6 okay, but I just feel that they could eat more power than the Phoenix can deliver. Of course Kingwa did not design the Phoenix for orthos. It would take a true speaker amp to take the HE6 by the scruff. But there wasn't a speaker amp at the meet, so I can't confirm this.