[xoxiax]

and there's no way to measure soundstage with numbers etc (or is there? I don't know)

Yes, It's perfectly objective, it's measured in square meters of immersion sense.

By the way, another and cheaper trick for improving soundstage is using some perception technology as wine.

 

[Tetonpowskier]

Did you guys use them with an Amp, or at least the cipher, and still not like the soundstage?

I thought it was great with the Cipher. Although, maybe the intense seperarion was what had me feeling like they were larger than they really are. I need to use them for more than 10 minutes..

They'll be here next week.

I would also buy a version 2 if it had more bass. I love bass.

 

[Gaben]

If you guys want to get the most of the Sines get the over-ear pads from VesperAudio, they significantly improve both the soundstage and comfort compared to the stock earpads.

And this is a matter of preference I'm sure but these headphones work great with some crossfeed, giving them deeper bass, larger soundstage and making the sound feel more "natural", kind of like the sound you get from listening to a pair of speakers.

Since I'm using them with the Cipher cable I bought the VOX music player for like 4$ since it has built in BS2B crossfeed.

 

[phthora]

Did you guys use them with an Amp, or at least the cipher, and still not like the soundstage?

I thought it was great with the Cipher. Although, maybe the intense seperarion was what had me feeling like they were larger than they really are. I need to use them for more than 10 minutes..

I used them with the iBasso P5 (1340 mW into 32 ohm), the Violectric HPA v90 (~1800mW into 32 ohm), and the iFi Black Label (4000mW into 16ohm). They were in no way under-driven. In fact, the Violectric has spectularly low crosstalk for a single-ended and brings out the best of any headphones' soundstage. They still sound pretty narrow. Not congested. The imaging is still quite good, instrument separation too, the soundstage just isn't very wide. Now, this isn't something that really bothers me, nor are they the narrowest I've heard. Perhaps the Cipher cable does something more than just up the bass...

 

[Tetonpowskier]

I also have never used a DAC much before that. Besides the ones that come stock on computers and phones. Maybe I was noticing that more than anything. It'd be funny if I use the Sine with the regular cable, and see if I still like it.

Or get a desktop DAC and have all my other cans come to life.

 

[sup27606]

I also have never used a DAC much before that. Besides the ones that come stock on computers and phones. Maybe I was noticing that more than anything. It'd be funny if I use the Sine with the regular cable, and see if I still like it.

Or get a desktop DAC and have all my other cans come to life.

I would say, cipher is just the beginning or baseline for a headphone like Sine. I used it with the cipher in the beginning, but after I listened to it through other DAC/amps with dedicated battery power, I almost never went back to the cipher. Cipher I think is mainly about convenience, and it does fairly well being powered by only the iphone and being able to drive a planar can, but if you stick to it, you may never find out the full potential of the Sine.

 

[phthora]

I also have never used a DAC much before that. Besides the ones that come stock on computers and phones. Maybe I was noticing that more than anything. It'd be funny if I use the Sine with the regular cable, and see if I still like it.

Or get a desktop DAC and have all my other cans come to life.

Although, maybe the intense seperarion was what had me feeling like they were larger than they really are. I need to use them for more than 10 minutes...

Good separation and imaging can give you that effect sometimes, making it seem like the soundstage is wide. As I understand it, 'separation' refers to how distinctly you can hear each instrument separate from each other; 'imaging' refers to how precisely you can place instruments on the XYZ axes in the soundstage; 'soundstage' refers to the how distant things can sound from your head. I apologize if you already knew all that. I'm not trying to be pedantic, just making sure we are on the same page. Those three elements seem to go hand-in-hand, but not always. My Shure 846's have an average soundstage, but outstanding imaging, and outstanding separation. My Philips X2's have a very wide soundstage, but only average imaging. Etc. I would say that the Audeze SINE have narrow soundstage, but very good imaging, and great separation. For me personally, I don't think soundstage is nearly as important as imaging or separation, or several other elements of sound.

A good DAC would definitely improve all three elements, and an amp with low crosstalk would help bring out better soundstage and imaging. If you aren't used to using those you may be hearing the improvement they give, rather than the absolute quality. It also depends on your frame of reference, experience, expectations, preferences, and a hundred other things.

But, hell, man, if you like them, that's all that matters. This soundstage talk is only useful for helping people understand why they like the headphones they do so that they can buy headphones they like again in the future. Once you figure out what you like, you waste a lot less money in this hobby. (Notice I said 'waste' not 'spend' )

 

[Tetonpowskier]

I would say, cipher is just the beginning or baseline for a headphone like Sine. I used it with the cipher in the beginning, but after I listened to it through other DAC/amps with dedicated battery power, I almost never went back to the cipher. Cipher I think is mainly about convenience, and it does fairly well being powered by only the iphone and being able to drive a planar can, but if you stick to it, you may never find out the full potential of the Sine.

Hmm. Whats a good cheap desktop Dac/Amp for these? I have a Fiio A5, and I may sell it and get something else.

 

[sup27606]

That depends on your definition of cheap. Ifi iDSD Black Label goes for $380 used on head-fi, which would be a great compact and powerful solution for Sine, that would also run on battery if needed.

I myself use the Cayin C5 and HifimeDIY Sabre 9018 DAC (total costed me about $200) that I think synergizes very well with Sine. Of course you can do better with the Ifi iDSD, or if you want a dedicated desktop DAC, I would highly recommend Schiit Modi Multibit ($250), but then you need to buy a separate AMP. You can get the newly released Magni 3 for $100.

This is my mobile solution for now (Cayin C5 + HifimeDIY Sabre 9018 DAC)

 

[Tetonpowskier]

I heard the Schiit stuff makes things sound bright. I dont want bright. I like warm. I gotta do my research.

 

[sup27606]

I heard the Schiit stuff makes things sound bright. I dont want bright. I like warm. I gotta do my research.

That was some of their old stuff. Modi Multibit is not bright (heard it myself), and the Magni 3 is on the warm side, according to reports here on head-fi. If you live in Southern California, you can go in person to the Schiit store to audition yourself.

 

[Tetonpowskier]

SoCal dreamin'

 

[dpwolfordMD]

Cipher cable for pure convenience alone but for best results go for the ifi black label with Xbass boost ON, 3D/crossfeed OFF. Not only does this give even better bass than the cipher but nicely improves instrument separation as well.

 

[Gaben]

If you guys want to get the most of the Sines get the over-ear pads from VesperAudio, they significantly improve both the soundstage and comfort compared to the stock earpads.

And this is a matter of preference I'm sure but these headphones work great with some crossfeed, giving them deeper bass, larger soundstage and making the sound feel more "natural", kind of like the sound you get from listening to a pair of speakers.

Since I'm using them with the Cipher cable I bought the VOX music player for like 4$ since it has built in BS2B crossfeed.

Found out that Foobar2000 Mobile also has a crossfeed plugin built in called "Meier Crossfeed" and it's free.

The Meier crossfeed seems to have a more subtle effect than the B2SB crossfeed, though it accomplishes it without making the sound "murkier" unlike the latter.

EDIT: After comparing the two side-by-side I find the B2SB crossfeed plugin in VOX to be superior.

 

[acia]

They are on sale on Adorama for $299 with cipher cable! You have to go through a Deal website first though..

At that price I couldnt resist, but I also have TH-X00 purplehearts coming tommorow. I may need to sell something now

what's the link for the deal please?