Audeze Mobius Review / Preview - Head-Fi TV

[sxr71]

Not sure what you’re trying to prove. At the end of the day this is their entry-level over-ear headphone and that’s what people are paying for even if you can add head tracking to any pair of headphones. I’m sure it’s more polished here than simply doing that.

You seem offended. I’m looking for a solution myself which is why I am here. However I don’t want to buy something half baked.

I also want to get info into what exactly I am getting for $400. I know you head fi kiddies think that is pocket change.

I remember saving up money to buy $400 years ago when I was a student. But now that I work hard for my money I look at value as a virtue. Not because I have to but because it makes sense. But it’s offensive to call a $400 headphone “entry level”.

However it clearly is entry level for Audeze. But that shouldn’t excuse it. I have thousands of dollars of headphones that have turned into paperweights. Because in the end the comfortable one is the one I use nearly 100% of the time. If this has a compelling 3D DSP then it be worth a quick impulse buy. However given more than a decade of buying high end headphones I can say that for me $99 head tracker that does exactly the same thing for my comfortable headphones is worth more to me. Because I can actually use it.

I will concede that having it built in has advantages in terms of software. I have used the Waves NX iPhone app just now. It has a huge disadvantage in that you must use its app for browsing and playing music.

However when using a gaming PC that problem disappears. You can just use the NX Waves PC app. I will demo the app and see if handles 5.1 and converts to binaural and then sends it via bluetooth. Because if it does then it has a huge advantage over this solution.

Just trying to be careful about what I buy. At some point it’s not just the money. It’s the amount of space this junk takes up too.

Yes, you would probably lose head tracking if the virtualization was done client-side.

But Waves offers a Bluetooth head tracker. And AFAIK the virtualization is done in their software.

 

[MICHAELSD]

But Waves offers a Bluetooth head tracker. And AFAIK the virtualization is done in their software.

Hmm, I would be interested in a full Bluetooth implementation or even a proprietary wireless format. Perhaps that’s too ambitious for now but maybe in future iterations.

 

[sxr71]

The head tracking has to be done in the headphones, or at the very least over a wired, low-latency connection. Bluetooth incurs a latency of ~100ms, which will simply make you nauseous if the head tracking is done through the app.

If you want non-head-tracked 5.1 or 7.1 over Bluetooth, I'm fairly certain there already exists software to do that for you. Should be a pretty simple transformation.

They offer this: https://www.waves.com/hardware/nx-head-tracker

However I am really confused about how well that would work with latency. Maybe it was okay for music but I could see how that would be horrible for gaming.

Yes I suppose I could use Dolby headphone for non head tracked 5.1.

So basically head tracked 5.1 isn’t a reality until multi channel Bluetooth audio is a reality.

It’s one of those things where the tech isn’t all fully ready. Just like how full 32 bit color 4:4:4 HDR will not work until HDMI 2.2. Which won’t show up until next year.

This is why I research this. I want to know if this is the right time to jump in and if this is the product to jump in with. I’ve been an early adopter too many times. I’d rather wait for them to get this stuff right.

Alternatively I could buy this and connect a cable. I’d rather just use speakers.

This pretty much concludes my inquiry into the product. Thank you (and everyone else) for your help.

Hmm, I would be interested in a full Bluetooth implementation or even a proprietary wireless format. Perhaps that’s too ambitious for now but maybe in future iterations.

I think they would have to go WiFi and with custom codec. Could be just AAC. Something like multi channel AirPlay. Seeing how much difficulty that trillion dollar company had with just airplay 2 I wonder when it will happen

 

[MICHAELSD]

You seem offended. I’m looking for a solution myself which is why I am here. However I don’t want to buy something half baked.

I also want to get info into what exactly I am getting for $400. I know you head fi kiddies think that is pocket change.

I remember saving up money to buy $400 years ago when I was a student. But now that I work hard for my money I look at value as a virtue. Not because I have to but because it makes sense. But it’s offensive to call a $400 headphone “entry level”.

However it clearly is entry level for Audeze. But that shouldn’t excuse it. I have thousands of dollars of headphones that have turned into paperweights. Because in the end the comfortable one is the one I use nearly 100% of the time. If this has a compelling 3D DSP then it be worth a quick impulse buy. However given more than a decade of buying high end headphones I can say that for me $99 head tracker that does exactly the same thing for my comfortable headphones is worth more to me. Because I can actually use it.

I will concede that having it built in has advantages in terms of software. I have used the Waves NX iPhone app just now. It has a huge disadvantage in that you must use its app for browsing and playing music.

However when using a gaming PC that problem disappears. You can just use the NX Waves PC app. I will demo the app and see if handles 5.1 and converts to binaural and then sends it via bluetooth. Because if it does then it has a huge advantage over this solution.

Just trying to be careful about what I buy. At some it’s not just the money. It’s the amount of space this junk takes up too.

I was just confused as to whether you were trying to downplay the product as a feature that can be added to any headphones. But I get you’re just trying to understand what it is.

For probably the last time in this thread:

Mobius is a planar magnetic headphone tuned like Audeze’s acclaimed LCD series with an active design, Bluetooth, and head-tracking that enables immersive 3D sound. It is available for $399, a price that breaks new ground for the company.

Yes, marketing is my area of expertise but I am not affiliated with Audeze.

If you’re on head-fi you’re probably buying Mobius because it’s an active planar magnetic headphone with all of Audeze’s latest driver technology.

 

[sxr71]

I was just confused as to whether you were trying to downplay the product as a feature that can be added to any headphones. But I get you’re just trying to understand what it is.

For probably the last time in this thread:

Mobius is a planar magnetic headphone tuned like Audeze’s acclaimed LCD series with an active design, Bluetooth, and head-tracking that enables immersive 3D sound. It is available for $399, a price that breaks new ground for the company.

Yes, marketing is my area of expertise but I am not affiliated with Audeze.

If you’re on head-fi you’re probably buying Mobius because it’s an active planar magnetic headphone with all of Audeze’s latest driver technology.

I just come here when any new headphone technology comes out because there are very experienced and knowledgeable people here.

I was more interested the 3D side of the product. Planar magnetic is great and I have the Sine (I didn’t think the comfort was there and the Cipher cable didn’t supply enough power - that was an Apple power restriction problem).

But as you have likely read I don’t see much use in audiophile physical drive unit technology when the signal is run through a DSP anyway. When DSP is involved I think they should optimize for comfort. IMHO that’s the holy grail. Comfortable enough to wear for hours and DSP that convincingly moves the soundstage in front of me. The first product to do that would be a certain buy. For plane use let’s say they add in noise cancellation. It would make it a lot more compelling. But having tried the Sony top of the line noise cancellation headphone and finding I can’t sleep with over ear headphones I’ve gone back to earbuds.

I have learned that probably the NX iPhone app plus my regular headphones with noise cancellation are the way to go. It’s just a pity to have use that app to browse and play music. I bet Apple restrictions caused that.

 

[RamSpencer]

Sorry man I don’t have time like I used to. In fact I haven’t been on this site for months if not years. I used to spend hours reading through a thread. But 250+ pages? Mostly filled with banter. There is no single post that explains what it does.

But then again this isn’t your job. The manufacturer hasn’t given enough of a care to put up an FAQ or explain the technology.

The only thing I saw is that content can be create with Waves software.

Maybe these forums should let users select in a drop down whether their post is technical in nature or some shipping related stuff. Then a reader could filter out the other stuff.

Try watching the video in post 1. Then carefully read all of the product description on Audeze's site. If English is your first language.....it's pretty much all there. Read the details carefully.

However to be fair let me just put down my top two questions.

If given 2 channel input what sort of processing is it using? A proprietary HRTF? With head tracking taken into consideration? Is it using Waves HRTF?

If given 5.1 or 7.1 is it converting to B format and then applying Waves binaural processing?


I did a bit more research at Waves. Basically it seems that I could spend $200 and get all this functionality into any pair of headphones. They may not be planar magnetic but they also wont crush my head. Am I wrong here?

HRTF is just telemetry used for head-tracking and and speaker placement relative to head-size. You measure your head and enter the measurements. Planar magnetic headphones can't be copied with DSP. The DSP is doing very particular EQ, has waves plugins and maybe some secret proprietary Audeze software tricks. Planar drivers handle micro-dynamics differently, have much lower distortion (especially in the bass), and just are a different kind of driver with it's own sound and nuances. Waves is only part of this package. Read up on waves to understand the processing better, if you still have questions. The Bluetooth head-tracker you'd need to buy from waves to make it's head-tracking worthwile is reportedly much less impressive than the Mobius. You won't be able to take your computer with you for portable use. You won't have BT. It won't sound like a Mobius.

I just come here when any new headphone technology comes out because there are very experienced and knowledgeable people here.

I was more interested the 3D side of the product. Planar magnetic is great and I have the Sine (I didn’t think the comfort was there and the Cipher cable didn’t supply enough power - that was an Apple power restriction problem).

But as you have likely read I don’t see much use in audiophile physical drive unit technology when the signal is run through a DSP anyway. When DSP is involved I think they should optimize for comfort. IMHO that’s the holy grail. Comfortable enough to wear for hours and DSP that convincingly moves the soundstage in front of me. The first product to do that would be a certain buy. For plane use let’s say they add in noise cancellation. It would make it a lot more compelling. But having tried the Sony top of the line noise cancellation headphone and finding I can’t sleep with over ear headphones I’ve gone back to earbuds.

I have learned that probably the NX iPhone app plus my regular headphones with noise cancellation are the way to go. It’s just a pity to have use that app to browse and play music. I bet Apple restrictions caused that.

You can do that. You'd need a BT head-tracker ($79) and it won't sound like a Mobius. Also that's a pretty limited app. Does sound quality really matter to you. If you're happy with a Sony or a Bose.....knock yourself out. This has already been said to whoop ass on the Sine while being a lot more comfortable. See if you can test drive one some time. Looks: I guess this is like sneakers as opposed to Italian leather dress shoes.

Man, there are a lot of people who just like to jump on here to complain and shoot people down. Kind of shocking so soon after the last update!

 

[KMann]

I understand this is a long thread and in spite of posting in this thread, IGG campaign thread and on our site, it may be hard to find the exact information you are looking for.

Planar magnetics is not just about the bass, we pride in producing drivers with close to negligible distortion across the spectrum. Low distortion allows to throw any FR curve at it and expect it to respond linearly, allows faithful reproduction of HRTF. We use ultra thin drivers. The low inertia of the drivers with mass orders of magnitude less than regular cone drivers allows the driver to respond faster, resulting in a faster settling and cleaner impulse response. This in turn results in improved transparency and better reproduction of timing details and ITD cues that are needed for a convincing sense of space. I have blogged more about this here. Though the blog post talks about VR, the principles are equally applicable here.

Audeze creates the most efficient planar drivers on the planet, no other company would be crazy enough to stuff planar drivers into a battery powered headphone.

Mobius has many use cases.
1. If you are not interested in the HRTF/3D aspect, at the very minimum, an affordable closed wireless planar that supports LDAC that sounds great.
2. Mobius does 2 channel room emulation with head tracking on USB/BT or Aux input no matter what your source is. The processing is done inside Mobius and not in an app for a few reasons:

• If the processing is done by an app, even for 2ch, it needs to be some sort of virtual sound card else you will not be able to enjoy it with all your sources of music and audio (Netflix, Tidal, Spotify, music players etc) on all platforms (PC/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS). Also there would be no way to get stereo emulation through other platforms and consoles. Creating a virtual processor for many of these platforms is not even possible.
• Our experience with Cipher DSP and cables has thought us that many love the simplicity and mobility of a hardware implementation rather than fiddling with software.
• Having head tracking done within the headphone keeps the latency very low and provides a more convincing real-world experience.

3. Mobius uses 7.1 channel via USB when available to provide a true surround sound experience without the need to install additional software on a PC or Mac. It also future proofs for other devices as you could enjoy 7.1ch audio if other devices and platforms start supporting 7.1ch audio over USB.

Regarding HRTF as implemented in Mobius. It is not done through multiple drivers or some fancy physical design other than the acoustic design required to provide a neutral sound signature. HRTF is done through DSP, we use Waves Nx algorithms to be specific. On top of which we added Cipher DSP to provide a neutral sound signature. We chose NX as it is one of the most efficient implementations we found that is also convincing and has a very low latency. Room size is controlled through Waves proprietary algorithms that simulate reflections without using a reverb engine and varies according to room size.

One could take various pieces of hardware and software available today, combine them with their favorite headphone and get a similar performance but our goal was to provide a complete package that is simple, seamless, sounds good and just works.

 

[KMann]

If given a two channel input it runs an hrtf. Okay fine. There’s no detail on how the acoustic room measurement is done. No information on what kind of anatomical analysis it does.

With the nuraphones at least they explained how it measures your ear canal and pinna.

Regarding room measurments, only room reflections are simulated. HRTF personalization is based IID and ITD based on user input of head geometry. These being over the ear headphones, the sound already travels through your pinna/concha/ear-canal without having to simulate them in detail. But we had to use DSP to invert the headphone response. Short of personalized measurements with in-ear microphones, the technology available today is still far from being able to convincingly simulate personal HRTFs for all azimuth and elevations even from 3D scans. We do not claim to do that. Mobius uses HRTFS that allow some personalization. The addition of
headtracking helps convince the brain further as the sound stage stays anchored, similar to what one experiences in the real world.

What exactly does it do with 5.1 or 7.1? Does it decode Dolby digital? Does it decode Atmos? What sort of ambisonics does it support? How many orders?

No decoding is done. Though one could do the decoding via external software and turn off 3D if one so wishes.

Head tracking is cool. But seriously which clown will put another pound of weight on their head on top of a VR headset? Seems to be so big as to double your head size. And with the VR headset it will be triple. How exactly will the head tracking work with VR games?

Mobius is not for VR games. VR engine already does the HRTF and the veiw port moves with you. Mobius can be used for VR production to test audio without needing supporting video.

I understand why audiophile phones need to be big. I can see why people would want planar magnetic. This is highly processed gaming audio. There only two things that really matter: COMFORT and DSP.

We designed Mobius to feel comfortable on extended use while sounding great doing that. Our hope is there are music loving gamer and gaming music lovers...

This whole concept of needing over the ear headphones for sound stage is ridiculous when DSP is involved. All that can be done in DSP.

In-ears do not capture your inner ear geometry. Though we could to some extent model heads as pumpkins of different sizes, the ear geometry is far harder to model and much more personal. There is a reason why in-ears have a far diminished sound-stage. DSPs can only do so much without measuring your ear. We have done it (add in-ear geometry) through DSP for our iSine series, but it is hard to beat over-the ear design when it comes to capturing the ear geometry.

 

[AlwaysForward]

Clarifying: I brought the non-fixed model to the meet because the fixed version is missing HiRes mode and felt demonstrating HiRes was more important for the meet to show their capabilities

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Regarding comments of the delays, I wonder how people had reacted if Mobius would be delayed like certain other headphone crowd funding campaign I'm part of that according to their schedule at the time which was at a similar stage as Mobius, ie. final prototype had been established and it was only manufacturing test production and mass manufacturing and shipping left. Schedule was set for March 2018 to ship out to customers. Enter March 2018 and it was delayed until August 2018, ok, so comes August and again it's now delayed until Q1 2019 with a 3 month "hickup" buffer so if we're lucky could still see it for Xmas I guess. However in this case it was down to various suppliers (in total 10 different involved) couldn't ship parts soon enough as other manufacturers with bigger shipments were prioritized so even if the suppliers told they could basically provide in x amount weeks (and schedule was based on that) turned out something entirely different in practice as a low shipping volume of a couple thousand was like nothing compared to some other partners they had to shipped far greater volumes so this particular headphone manufacturer were put in the waiting queue. Not entirely related to Mobius but good example how these campaigns can become delayed, it's just too many factors involved that can go not like planned.

Regarding the DSP and HRTF etc comments, I'd recommend to look into the latest Creative's offering "Super X-Fi" SoC that they are this time licensing out to other partners to use into their products, this was like the most impressing thing experienced by tech nerds at this year's CES and they all came out mighty impressed as the headphone they were using for demo sounded the same as an expensive Dolby Atmos speaker setup. Maybe this could also be an option for a future Mobius product if the cost is reasonable. This solution also takes into account personal ear shape, at CES they used microphones to calibrate people's ears for this but in retail products they intend to use a system where they let ppl take photograph of their ears and the software somehow tweaks the parameters based on that which they claim is roughly ~85% accurate of a microphone calibration. I think it's an interesting technology for sure that Creative has worked for many years on, doesn't have any head-tracking though so Waves Nx still has some benefits to that as well.

I wonder if you're planning on separating the surround and head-tracking as separate features down the road like it is in the Waves Nx app. Would be cool to be able to disable head-tracking for music listening but be able to use the surround processing for example. Another reason would be if say the Creative Super X-Fi turned out to be the current "holy grail" for headphone surround, you could still use head-tracking on Mobius but use the X-Fi chip's surround solution in case there will be a soundcard released with this feature.

 

[FaezFarhan]

Just thought i'd jump in and give my thoughts. I received my unit on Wednesday but have only had the opportunity to try them out today. The big deal seems to be hiss. On my particular unit the hiss is definitely present. For those of you familiar with using sensitive iem's with balanced armatures...the hiss is approximately the level you get using those out of a high impedance source. Personally, i'm not that bothered by it. Its there for sure but it doesn't in any way negatively affect gaming for me.

For me personally if it hadn't been brought up in this thread i would have never given it a thought. But I do have other rigs used for more critical listening so these aren't used for that purpose for me.

I have to believe that the hiss has to be worse on some units. It's really a non-issue for me.

I believe Audeze will do whats right to keep their backers happy. I've had several dealings with Audeze customer service and have never been anything less than completely satisfied in their response to any issues i've had in the past. So hopefully they get it all worked out.

Chase

Sound impression?

 

[Drivenby]

Clarifying: I brought the non-fixed model to the meet because the fixed version is missing HiRes mode and felt demonstrating HiRes was more important for the meet to show their capabilities

Did the fix break the high res mode or they just haven't figured out how to have the fix and the high res at the same time?... More importantly did they mention whether it was coming back or not?

I figure some people would be interested in that

 

[KMann]

Did the fix break the high res mode or they just haven't figured out how to have the fix and the high res at the same time?... More importantly did they mention whether it was coming back or not?

I figure some people would be interested in that

The HiRes mode not being available had nothing to do with the fix. All functionality and modes would work as before and is independent of HiRes mode. The one we shipped to him was from our lab and did not have the latest firmware. Our intent was for him to be able to quickly give us a feedback on the hardware fix.

 

[Ted23]

The HiRes mode not being available had nothing to do with the fix. All functionality and modes would work as before and is independent of HiRes mode. The one we shipped to him was from our lab and did not have the latest firmware. Our intent was for him to be able to quickly give us a feedback on the hardware fix.

Thank god there was an answer quickly otherwise rampant speculation and hand wringing would have followed. If everyone can just relax a bit and trust that Audeze wants this to succeed and is putting a lot of their resources and time into it. I also can’t wait to hear them but so far I’m not disappointed at all with how they’ve handled everything. Life throws you curveballs but they’ve been there to meet them, very impressive.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

People needs to start thinking logically, why would Audeze go the long mile to recall orders to fix a slight hiss but leave Hi-Res out which was been working before? Think about that for a second, not a chance. But yea some calming down now should be in order and I can't wait until this (or a new thread) starts focusing on the POSITIVES as there should be plenty to talk about in this headphone. Has gotten a bit rough start for sure but I'm sure it eventually will turn around.