Audeze iSINE 10 & iSINE 20: Audeze releases two new IEM planar magnetic earphones
Feb 7, 2018 at 10:48 AM Post #4,846 of 7,352
My Sine sounds better with the standard cable any my own EQ, but for those days when I don't want my DAP+AMP/DAC+rubber bands, hooking up the Cipher cable to my iPhone or iPod or iPad is way more convenient. And it does sound pretty good. The Cipher cable is NOT overrated - it
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Hooking the standard cable with LG V20 + viper4android is easy too my friend
But i'm happy for you you like the sound you have now
 
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Feb 7, 2018 at 10:57 AM Post #4,847 of 7,352
Hooking the standard cable with LG V20 + viper4android is easy too my friend
But i'm happy for you you like the sound you have now
Thanks I’m glad you like the sound I get from the standard cable hooked up to my iDSD Micro Black Label AMP/DAC. I was worried you wouldn’t like it because it doesn’t compare to an LG V20.
 
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Feb 7, 2018 at 11:29 AM Post #4,848 of 7,352
What does Audeze have to do with my taxes? This is Isines thread, Audeze designed and manufactures isines, nothing I was asking here is unreasonable.
Maybe I'm asking too much, but would it be possible for you, or any other Audeze developer to post measured EQ presets for most common Android apps?
Yes, you're asking too much. Kmann politely declined because you can clearly do it yourself. He has helped a lot of people on Android but can't cater to every individual's need.
do you think Audeze doesn't have to provide flat Frequency response from $599 priced product they manufacture and sell? Audeze Isines series headphones don't come with a warning that states clearly that iSines DO NOT give optimal Fr output without Cipher.
Kmann has helped a lot of people, including myself. He doesn't owe you anything, and to insist that he has a duty to help you is untrue.
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 11:34 AM Post #4,849 of 7,352
Thanks I’m glad you like the sound I get from the standard cable hooked up to my iDSD Micro Black Label AMP/DAC. I was worried you wouldn’t like it because it doesn’t compare to an LG V20.
I compared the LG V20 directly with the chord mojo, there was 0 difference sorry to say.
Don't underestimate this phone
You can read the small review here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aud...iem-planar-magnetic-earphones.818870/page-317

There is no single reason for me to buy a DAC/DAP with rubber bands

Edit: I'll try the iDSD Micro Black Label maybe next week, you made me curious now
 
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Feb 7, 2018 at 12:04 PM Post #4,850 of 7,352
I compared the LG V20 directly with the chord mojo, there was 0 difference sorry to say.
Don't underestimate this phone
You can read the small review here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aud...iem-planar-magnetic-earphones.818870/page-317

There is no single reason for me to buy a DAC/DAP with rubber bands

Edit: I'll try the iDSD Micro Black Label maybe next week, you made me curious now
Yeah the LG V20 by itself is decent but you really should try it with an AMP to get more goodness from your iSine. Mojo is good as is iFi micro iDSD Black Label. Or any AMP paired with the DAC in the LG V20 or any AMP/DAC -> otg cable -> LG V20.
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 12:06 PM Post #4,851 of 7,352
And don’t forget the rubber bands LOL.
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 12:06 PM Post #4,852 of 7,352
Or do you think Audeze doesn't have to provide flat Frequency response from $599 priced product they manufacture and sell? Audeze Isines series headphones don't come with a warning that states clearly that iSines DO NOT give optimal Fr output without Cipher.
Name a single headphone on the market that has a 'perfect' response and name a manufacturer that provides DSP presets for their headphones? does that mean all headphones and iems beyond a a certain price range need to come with a warning that they are not optimal and require all manufacturers to supply DSP settings that are measured for all common apps?

Isines were designed to sound the best we could possibly make them sound given the constraints. Many use the iSines without any EQ and the DSP presets help to create the effect of the outer ear. Being open, with negligible distortion and very clear in-ear headphones, makes it easy to pick out tonal changes. Since the iSines respond very well to EQ, many are shocked as A/B tests make it very obvious. We see the DSP as a way to raise the iSines to top tier open headphones, it is a value addition rather than a requirement.

I understand some of the frustration, but we have to work within technical constraints. Making measurements through a non standard device such as phone running an Android app is not easy and sometimes even not possible. If you had a measurement software running on your PC, have you thought about how you will run that signal through your android device, through the app and make it play out of the headphone?
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 12:43 PM Post #4,853 of 7,352
Yes for any products we control and release (Roon, Reveal plugins, Cipher), not for third party apps.

But you have helped people here by posting EQ presets for various apps.
It is very unexpected to now realize that you did these by ear only, we all have slightly different ears, and hearing, measurements rely on science, and measurements, unlike ears, are not subjective. Measuring, done correctly, using different methods and variations are essential.
Here's what Audeze says about designing and measuring their headphones:

https://www.audeze.com/headphone-measurements

There is however fairly easy, yet very accurate way to correct Isine response without using any measuring equipments, but it requires 2 sets of Isines, and 2 sources. This also assumes that Cipher itself is accurate, because after this excercise is finished, you end up with a cloned Cipher Fr response from non iOS source.

Use iPhone, isines connected with Cipher, take the Right Channel ear piece and hook it to your for right ear.
Use 3.5 cable, connected to any non iOS device, EQ set flat, use the Left Channel ear piece, and hook it to your left ear.
Now you have 2 sources, Right Channel in your ear is EQ corrected, Left Channel is raw output from non iOS source, uncorrected.

Set both sources to play pure test tones from 20Hz to 20 kHz. If you have access to a Frequency generator, use that, I do not, so I use Stereophile magazine CD2:
https://www.stereophile.com/features/338/index.html
And here:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/istereophileis-test-cd-2-tracks-15-19

Stereophile CD has tracks with 1/3 Octave warble tones starting at 20Hz, 31.5Hz, 40Hz and so in, going up to 20kHz. Each Frequency track is 15 seconds long. So be prepared to play each Fr tone repeatedly, or put it on a loop.

Load the files of identical warble tones to each source device, and before doing anything, level match the sources carefully, with iSines it can be tricky, because using 1kHz, the usual reference level matching tone may give wrong overall signal level, because Right Channel is already EQ'd by Cipher.
After you have level matched both sources, start playing each warble tone, and adjust the Left Channel device's Equalizer, until the balance of each test tone is correct, or close enough. That means you have raised or lowered each Fr point to match Ciphered source's output. Our ears are very sensitive to imbalance between L and R channel, and we can easily hear even slight difference in level between channels.
Now do it with each test tone, and you end up your non idevice giving corrected, EQ curve identical to Cipher.

This, of course requires 2 sets of the same isine IEMs. Result is very accurate.

Different question is, how accurate is Cipher's response. It does sound very accurate Fr response, simply by comparing it to full size LCD series.
I refuse to believe Isines, or any serious headphone is designed by ears only. It's impossible, just like measuring levels of distortion is impossible by ear only, ears tell us that Isines have a magnitude lower distortion than competing Dynamic and Armature drivers, but how much lower, only measurements can tell.
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 1:13 PM Post #4,854 of 7,352
It is very unexpected to now realize that you did these by ear only, we all have slightly different ears, and hearing, measurements rely on science, and measurements, unlike ears, are not subjective. Measuring, done correctly, using different methods and variations are essential.
iSines bypass outer ear, you can attach a different pinna to a dummy head and get the exact same measurement. Measurements are useful and provide valuable

insight, but doing EQ or headphone design based on measurments alone will not provide good results. a combination of measurments and critical listening is needed.

Based on measurements, critical listening and user feedback is how we arrived at the current DSP presets for Cipher and any suggestions I make for the various apps are meant to replicate the same profile. Parameteric EQ allows you to plugin the values and match the final response we need very precisely, I do not see a need for measurement there other than validating through listening to check nothing is wonky.

In the case of 10 band EQ, they are peak filters with typical Q (.7,1 or 1.4) and center frequency values. It is very hard for 10 band EQ to match the desired response precisely. Knowing what they are I have already done a curve fit and suggested gains based on that to follow the desired response.

Both the parametric EQ and 10 band EQ are deterministic mathematical operations that apply a known transfer function to the signal. Here too I do not see a need to measure other than listing to validate.

Your assumption that measurements will translate to a preset that is universally applicable to everyone is not true for in-ears as in-ears do not involve your outer ear and since the outer ear is different for everyone, the DSP needed to sound perfect for one person will be slightly different from another. For full sized headphones, since the response of the outer ear is already captured byt hte time the sound waves reach the ear drum, it is easier to create a preset that most with normal hearing will enjoy,

Here's what Audeze says about designing and measuring their headphones:

https://www.audeze.com/headphone-measurements

Yes I am aware of what I wrote.

I refuse to believe Isines, or any serious headphone is designed by ears only. It's impossible, just like measuring levels of distortion is impossible by ear only, ears tell us that Isines have a magnitude lower distortion than competing Dynamic and Armature drivers, but how much lower, only measurements can tell.

You are confusing headphone design with design of EQ/DSP preset. Of course we do ton of measurements during the design process and also during production. We also do measurements on different rigs to get a sense of what the measurements will look like for an average ear and use this information as a starting point for the DSP preset. We also do measurements after applying DSP presets to see how well our driver responds to presets. But the final tuning is always done by ear. Measurments are unreliable beyond 2.5kHz, slight changes in seal and positioning and the differences in the geometry of the measuring rig can add a great deal of uncertainty.
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 2:15 PM Post #4,855 of 7,352
Name a single headphone on the market that has a 'perfect' response and name a manufacturer that provides DSP presets for their headphones? does that mean all headphones and iems beyond a a certain price range need to come with a warning that they are not optimal and require all manufacturers to supply DSP settings that are measured for all common apps?

Other than few notable exceptions, no headphone needs additional, separate DSP or EQ, in order to put out fairly unmangled response curve, and you know it. Or you should, as developer.

Isines do need correction. Sennheiser ie800 do not, Ultimate Ears Armatures do not, Weston Armatures do not, JH Audio do not .. I can go on, that is why none of the above come with DSP. No other IEM needs outboard DSP or EQ, so when you ask to name 'any other manufacturer', it's not exactly honest debate. It's a trick question abd needless distraction from main point - does Audeze plan to release USB connection DSP?
If Audeze could, they would correct the Fr response of isines without having to resort to outboard DSP. All these pages here would be unnecessary.
Unless it was a marketing ploy from get go, using Lightning device in order to get to Apple Store, Holy Grail of any manufacturer. If thats the case, well done! To partner with Apple is like being touched by the hand of God. Audeze has arrived!


As a rule, headphones have no need for DSP, Isines are unique, and different from any other headgear in that respect. It's puzzling how do you not know this. No worries, I'm here to tell you that Isines are world's first Planar Magnetic IEM, isines are a breakthrough in IEM design, and headphone design in general. As far as I'm concerned, every other IEM maker can pack up now, other than $3000 Shure Electrostatic IEM. But developers usually know basics of their own creation.

Few exceptions to the rules are top models by Stax, they come with their own voltage amps, Sennheiser Orpheus, Shure KSE 1500 Electrostatic IEMs. Can't think of any other headgear that requires additional piece of hardware, as part of overall design.

Isines use tiny Planar drivers, Planars are similar to Electrostatics in many respects. Due to extremely low Moving Mass, and precisely controlled Diaphragm, Isines' distortion is steps lower than Dynamic and Armature IEMs. But unlike full size Planars, Isines need correction, because their raw response is peaky at certain frequencies, and at some Fr drops significantly. So Audeze chose active Fr control, instead of trying smooth out driver's raw response by trying to smooth out driver. This is basic stuff, and answers your question, hopefully.

Curiously, Audeze LCDi4 (which I'm considering buying btw) are superficially similar in design to Isines, but do not require additional DSP EQ. If I knew a friendly developer at Audeze, I'd really like to know more about LCDi4, especially how did they manage to tame a very similar driver to isines.

Back to Isines.

Edit: Just saw the post above, we have successfully deflected the issue of Cipher (or lack of, for Android users), and convo is now effectively changed to measuring techniques vs ears only, or combination of both. Well done!
 
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Feb 7, 2018 at 3:35 PM Post #4,857 of 7,352
Anyone know if this cable will fit the isines

https://www.amazon.com/KZ-Replacement-Exchange-Earphones-cable/dp/B077JKKGTP/ref=sr_1_1?dd=rHnnhaFy7F9fcapem-QbDg,,&ie=UTF8&qid=1518034343&sr=8-1&keywords=2+pin+.75+headphone+cable&refinements=p_90:8308921011&th=1#customerReviews

Mine came today with faulty cable. Gonna wait get it right by Audeze but might order that one in the mean time since it’s cheap

Wrong pin size. KZ is .75, the iSine is .78.

Venture Electronics is a popular source for inexpensive replacement cables.
 
Feb 7, 2018 at 4:04 PM Post #4,860 of 7,352
Thanks good looks.

I have the isine lx, are they any different in cable size? I was told .75 in there, but wanted to make sure
You should confirm with Audeze customer service what the right size connector is for the iSine LX. Otherwise you’ll just have a guessing game going on. For example I read it’s .78mm with a notch.
 

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