[laaurora]

Hello, Head-Fi. Audiophile newbie is looking for your advice here.
 
Brief description of my situation:
 
I'm a designer working long hours at my home office. Although I'm alone there most of the time and making noise wouldn't be a problem at all, somehow I always use headphones as my main sound output. I feel very personal about music and headphones give me a much more intimate experience. So we are talking about daily usage, 6-10 or more hours a day.
 
I consider myself a visuals-dependent person and until recently I've been very poorly informed about audio equipment. I've been feeling dissatisfied with what I was hearing for a while though. I find lack of clarity my current setup provides almost painful. So I've decided I really want some improvement regarding this side of my life.
 
I thought it was a matter of investing 150-200$ dollars into better headphones but after reading some, I got to realize it might take a bit more that that. I don't really plan to make audiophilia my new hobby but I want to find a decent solution for my needs and I'm willing to invest some time and money in that.
 
What I look for:
 
I'm looking for new kind of experience. I don't want something that's just tiny bit clearer than what I have, I want something that can 'wow' me and put me in the center of the world I've never been to before (should be possible, having in mind my rather low reference point). I'm not looking for the most expensive solution available though. I'd rather not pay for increase in quality that I will just know is there but will never feel. I'm after some reasonable solution.
 
I want something that looks nice, is well-built and gives pleasant tactile sensation. I know it has nothing to do with sound, but it has a lot to do with my ability to enjoy owning the object that outputs sound.
 
Sound-wise, I'm more after atmosphere and clarity than punch. I'd also like something sounding mellow, melodic and natural (not to be confused with 'neutral', I don't mind coloration if it makes things more pleasant). I like sounds of running water, wooden instruments, acoustic guitars, piano etc. I do prefer them to obviously synthesized or metallic sounds although I do enjoy myself some light melodic electronica. I'm quite a fan of female vocals. My music collection is full of tracks featuring them, so they really need to sound well. Few semi-random examples from my playlist: Dan Gibson, Meg, Air, Katie Melua, Jazztronik. If this kind of music sounds pleasant in my new headphones, I'll be more than happy.
 
Current setup:
 
All my music is digital (mostly ALAC or 320kbits mp3 at worst) and I doubt this will change any soon. My primary source is Macbook. It's paired with big monitor, so is not really portable, neither will my new iMac be. So I really have no trouble with additional devices of any size and weight. Unfortunately neither of these machines come with advanced sound cards, neither can you really replace them with a better on-board ones. So if any improvements are to be made to the source, it has to be an external solution (USB or FireWire).
 
I have 2 pairs of Sennheisers: HD201 and HD228. The latter I only use with my tablet on the go as it's just too uncomfortable for keeping it on for long. So I'm looking for quality replacement for HD201 that's plugged directly in my laptop. As you see, I got really much space for improvement.
 
I also own Playstation3 (as in big console, not portable) that I use as BlueRay player. If movies sounded decent in new headphones, that would be a nice bonus. Music is my primary focus though.
 
Shopping list?
 
As you've probably guessed by the title, I'm looking at AT woodies as they seem to be headphones where most things I look for meet (please correct me if I'm terribly wrong on this).
 
I have read good reviews on W1000X and I realize they are overall superior to the older W1000 model, yet I've heard that while technically less perfect, non-X version is more melodic and treats female vocal better in particular (W1000X make it sound bit metallic). They would cost me about same here, so the question is only which model would provide me more enjoyment. Right now I'm leaning on W1000 side a bit but I'd appreciate any opinions on this.
 
I do have doubts about getting either though. 600$ is not cheap (especially compared to 30$ ones I'm using now) and I wonder if I'll be able to provide such headphones a source that would do them justice. I know they are relatively easy to drive. It's a nice bonus and means I could use them with other devices occasionally. But I have doubts they will sound as good as their price tag would suggest if plugged them into bad source. And if they don't, that would be quite a waste.
 
So I'd like to understand what other components it would require to justify the cost of these headphones and how much more expensive this whole thing is going to get for me.
 
First I would need some external replacement for my sound card, I guess. I'm a bit confused with this 'external sound card / DAC' thing. Do I just need one of them or both? Are there any particular recommendations for either? Do those devices affect the warmth of the sound and can choosing one particular model over another make W1000s sound bit smoother for example?
 
Amplifier. To be honest, when I saw that Yamamoto HA-02 amp, it kinda winked at me. It's both pretty and suitable for AT woodies and I can't swear that I won't give in to its charms some time in the future. It's not cheap at all though. And I wonder if there are other good options or if getting an amp could wait a bit. Would those headphones sound alright out of DAC for example (or whatever I need to get first)?
 
It all does seem to get a bit above 150-200$ that I thought it would require. I don't really have a set budget and I'm usually willing to spend a little extra on getting something that's actually worth it. But I don't know the world of audio that well and it's a bit difficult for me to draw the line between reasonable and excessive at the moment.

 

[CFabian]

A DAC will bypass your computer's sound card, so there is no need to invest in both. Theoretically the goal of a DAC should be to output the cleanest signal possible but in reality most do color the sound in some noticeable way, such as the Stello DACs which add a bit of fullness and warmth to recordings (not necessarily a bad thing, should you decide to go the W1000 route).

The W1000 would likely be the better choice for you based on your preferences. The Yamamoto HA-02 is known to have excellent synergy with the W1000, that said I have had great results with the W1000 + MG-Head which can be had used for much cheaper and others have described the Earmax Pro as being a good match. In my experience with ATs investing in a better source will yield more noticeable gains than pouring a lot of money into a dedicated amp, that said I do recommend tubes for the W1000 and if you feel like you're going to give in and buy the HA-02 at some point better to do so now and be done with it as it will save you money in the long term.

I'm sure the W1000 would be a dramatic upgrade over what you've heard previously even unamped and out of a subpar source but ultimately I find them to sound thin and overly bright when used this way, so I wouldn't hold off on pairing them with at least a decent tube amp if you go with the W1000.

 

[francisdemarte]

Either the W1000 or the W1000X will fulfill your musical tastes. They are easy to drive so you will be able to run them off of your Mac. You'll also need a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter because the W1000 series do not come with one for some reason.

If you feel the need to upgrade your computer's audio set up I would also reccomend a tube or tube hybrid amplifier to give a nice organic and warm feel to the sound, especially the W1000X as they are brighter and have punchier treble than the W1000.

The Yamamoto HA-02 is my dream amp too. They are expensive for what it is, but remember they are handmade works of art.

I power mine from a Head Direct EF-5 and they sound wonderful, lush, warm, and detailed.

 

[cky8]

Look these are the kinds of posts from new head-fi members I like. Providing thorough information, done research on beforehand. We are more willing to help this way with more insightful posts!
 

 
Both the W1000 and W1000X will be a significant upgrade compared to your current headphones. Although I haven't heard the W1000 I believe the W1000X overall provides better coverage in all departments. Audio Technica headphones are efficient headphones already so they can be driven good enough from standard sources. Although an amp will certainly improve things.
 
An investment in a better DAC would be the better upgrade along with the new headphones. I currently own the Grandioso but will buy the Anedio D1 DAC in the near future. Considering the price of $600 is certainly even a good deal provided what these cans deliver!

 

[laaurora]

CFabian, francisdemarte, cky8
 
First of all, thank you a lot for your replies. I found all three extremely helpful and feel much more confident about my purchase now.
 
I'll be buying W1000 soon unless they turn out to be hard to find.
 
This whole set does add up to a bit over 3000$ though and that's a bit more than either my monthly 'toys' budget or tax-free import limit in this country. I also have an expensive computer update coming, so I quite likely will have to either do it in stages or compromise a bit or both. I'd like to learn a bit more about my options.
 
So do I get it right that Amplifier is both the thing I need first and the thing I can compromise on the most? And that the DAC is something that can wait a bit but I better get a good one as it can provide a significant jump in quality?
 
And components that get along with W1000 well are:
 
Amp: Yamamoto HA-02, Earmax Pro, MG-Head, Head Direct EF-5
DAC: April Music Stello DA100 Signature, Anedio D1
 
Are there any other options I should consider?
 
Thank you for all the help you provided so far, I really appreciate it.
 
 

 

[tk3]

 I wouldn't jump into a $3000 setup right from the beginning, especially since you pointed out you have a limited budget, especially not just based on the words of people without trying anything yourself.
The sound might not be to your liking at all despite what people have said, and there may be other factors involved such as comfort.
If possible, go to a meet (check the sub-forum for one in your area) so you can get to try many things, or try to find a store where you can get a hands-on listen at least.
When you're talking about these kind of budgets, it is worth it.
I'm amused by how your initial estimate went from ~200 to 3000 in a few posts though.
 
About the phones themselves, although I like the AT headphones, I haven't tried either of those you're choosing between so I can't really comment on them. All I can say is that the newer W1000X generally seems to be better received than the older model was in its time.
As part of the signal chain, I feel the headphones have the biggest impact on the sound, so I would put a good majority of your budget in that area. This is generally true when you're not buying a headphone with very specific power needs and under-amping it, but the AT headphones are easy to drive for the most part.
 
But since you said you aren't looking for the most expensive setup, I recommend that you take a step back budget-wise, and include some cheaper options.
The headphones are fine, but I would skip on the $1000 range amps and DACs for now, it really doesn't have to be that expensive to get good sound.
 
As for the amplifier, for headphones like these it's hard to get an inexpensive tube amp that matches well because of their low impedance, as you noticed a good one like the HA-02 will be in the $1000 range or higher fast.
But there are other viable alternatives out there such as solid state/hybrids amps that don't burn a hole in your wallet. Especially DIY (based) amps such as the Millet Minimax, AMB M³, the Gilmore Lite and more are worth considering.
 
Likewise for the DAC, just getting away from on-board sound from your Mac to a decent DAC will be a big upgrade, but it doesn't have to cost megabucks.
You could easily halve that $3000 and still have a great sounding setup, so keep that in mind if budget is a concern.
 
Also, buy used if you can, and don't waste money on fancy cables.
 

 

[laaurora]

Quote:

I wouldn't jump into a $3000 setup right from the beginning, especially since you pointed out you have a limited budget, especially not just based on the words of people without trying anything yourself.
...
I'm amused by how your initial estimate went from ~200 to 3000 in a few posts though.
...
But since you said you aren't looking for the most expensive setup, I recommend that you take a step back budget-wise, and include some cheaper options.

Well, this is what places like Head-Fi do to people -) The truth is I didn't have a set 200$ budget for this. It was more like I wasn't even aware it could cost more. And I definitely wouldn't be able to go back to that range now as I'll feel I'll be missing a lot.
 
I'm pretty decided on headphones now. I'm not too social, at least not when it comes to music that I feel very personal about, so I don't really trust myself to make a good judgement under pressure of someone's else presence around me. I'd rather take little risk after good research and then give them time to show their nature to me. I don't think I'll be frustrated coming from HD201 anyway. I'll be getting headphones first, so I'll have some time before making decisions on further investment.
 
I won't be getting 3000$ setup at once, that's for sure. I could complete it over some time though. I'm also looking for cheaper options. That's why I asked this question in my post above. I'd like to know what other options I have that would provide me a great experience with these headphones even if it's not a perfect one, so I can make more informed choices on my way.
 
I will look into used options for sure but it may be a bit hard to get them shipped to my country. I'm not in CONUS unfortunately.
 
 

 

[wind016]

Quote:

Well, this is what places like Head-Fi do to people -) The truth is I didn't have a set 200$ budget for this. It was more like I wasn't even aware it could cost more. And I definitely wouldn't be able to go back to that range now as I'll feel I'll be missing a lot.
 
I'm pretty decided on headphones now. I'm not too social, at least not when it comes to music that I feel very personal about, so I don't really trust myself to make a good judgement under pressure of someone's else presence around me. I'd rather take little risk after good research and then give them time to show their nature to me. I don't think I'll be frustrated coming from HD201 anyway. I'll be getting headphones first, so I'll have some time before making decisions on further investment.
 
I won't be getting 3000$ setup at once, that's for sure. I could complete it over some time though. I'm also looking for cheaper options. That's why I asked this question in my post above. I'd like to know what other options I have that would provide me a great experience with these headphones even if it's not a perfect one, so I can make more informed choices on my way.
 
I will look into used options for sure but it may be a bit hard to get them shipped to my country. I'm not in CONUS unfortunately.
 
 

Hey laaurora,
 
My opinion is that all you'll need for a DAC and AMP is the Anedio D1. I had the Woo Audio 6SE and I didn't feel it was worth the extra amplifier nor did it add much else other than coloration. The Anedio D1 does the job well for me for any low impedance headphones and it's soundstage is amazingly wide. I think the Anedio D1 might even be overkill of your first taste of audiophilia, but I'm sure. I haven't tried much "mid range" DACs.
 
The W1000 is a very tricky headphone. It's sound character is either one you will love or hate. It really forces the vocals out to practically shouting over the band. If you can tame it's upper mids and lower treble with a good equalizer to the level you like or if you just like it flat, then it can be a great headphone for vocal centered music. Vocal details are high and sound is a bit lush. I liked it more after I increased the mid-bass and lower mids on the W1000 with an equalizer, however. It was my preferred headphone for a while.
 
The W1000X is probably the safest choice. The W1000's have very weak bass compared to the W1000X. In fact, the W1000 and the W1000X don't really sound similar at all except for the general balance of vocals. The W1000 is a MUCH brighter headphone. The W1000X rivals some other top tier headphones in bass. I would highly recommend the W1000X since there really isn't much to complain about them. Excellent bass and soundstage + easy to amplify.
 
If you get an Anedio D1 and a W1000X, I think you got yourself an excellent rig already.
 
 
On a side note, nice to see CFabian's posts again! His vintage ATH knowledge is off the charts haha

 

[laaurora]

wind016,
 
I've been torn between X and non-X version for a while actually. And I have read very mixed reviews on them. Everyone pretty much agrees that W1000X provides more clarity, bigger sound stage and much stronger bass. But at the same time I've seen opinions that it's a bit harsh and hard to tame and that it also does not perform too well with female vocals. As close to 80-90% of my music features female vocals, I'm quite worried about this (wouldn't it be especially bad without warm amp to correct it?). I've also read opinions that while W1000X did impress people more from the start, they did get bit tiresome after a while and people would consider keeping W1000 for their more pleasant and melodic character. But now that you say they are too bright, I can see it being a bit of a problem.
 
I'd be interested to hear more opinions on this. And also on skipping amp altogether.
 

 

[wind016]

I guess it really depends on how you hear. My hearing fluctuates ALOT in almost 180 degree preferences in a day. I can't stand treble in the mornings so I would personally not tolerate the W1000 in the morning, but I could enjoy bassy headphones easily during that time so I would probably like the W1000X more then. I would still prefer to roll down the treble of the W1000X most likely then since I roll down the treble of my even bassier Monster Turbine Pros in the morning. I just can't stand treble at all after waking up. Later in the day I would be perfectly happy with the W1000 but I definitely wouldn't try boosting it's treble. They are at my limit of what I can tolerate there. When bass is fatiguing, the W1000 is relaxing since it has a rather weak low response.
 
I think the W1000X is most likely the easier to use all around headphone that can be EQed to match your preferences much easier than the W1000. That doesn't mean you might not enjoy the W1000 more instead though...
 
You should take your time with headphones. This hobby takes a lot of time to find what sound you like and what you think is worth it so don't expect it to be your last purchase. Buying used is a great way to explore without losing much money.

 

[laaurora]

wind016,
 
My mornings fluctuate a lot, sometimes in almost 180 degrees, so I'm having my breakfast when it's already dark outside -) Probably that's why I never noticed how my hearing changes according to the time of the day. Plus I never really had more than one pair of headphones to be able to compare. When I find the sound too fatiguing, I just take headphones off. The choice is very simple.
 
I really would like this to be my last purchase (at least for a while). This hobby is just too time-consuming and dangerous for the pocket. Somehow I feel that I can get away with just buying something that would drastically improve music experience for me and forgetting about this place for a while. But once I start trying out and comparing things, there will be no way back, I'm afraid -)
 
That's why I probably should be looking for the safer option out of the two. I won't have a chance to compare them head to head to regret buying one over another. I just want to enjoy my music more.
 
As for buying used, I don't mind that at all. I'm keeping an eye for local offers on w1000, w1000x and ad2000 for few weeks now. Unfortunately Head-Fi sales section is not much of a help as most sellers are only willing to ship within USA or EU.

 

[cky8]

As has been said already. Both headphones will certainly be a huge improvement. Just start with one component. Headphones first obviously and start experiencing its house sound for a while. Later you can try changing for a better DAC and Amp. You need to gradually travel through it and learn your sound preferences.
 
If anything since I started this journey I know AKG headphones aren't for me but I love the AT house sound 

 

[CFabian]

The thing about the W1000 is that it is a somewhat finicky headphone, and without the right matching components (which does not equate to the most expensive components necessarily) things can go south rather quickly. The W1000 does sound bright and bass-lean out of many setups, but that's where synergy comes into play. When the W1000 is plugged into the MG-Head the highs are smoothed out naturally and it adds a noticeable amount of emphasis to the bass and lower mids, leading to a very natural sound without sacrificing the 'sweet' coloration the W1000 is known for. The MG-Head can be run in Transformer or OTL mode, making it one of the few relatively cheap tube amps that performs well with both low and high impedance headphones.
 
But as you can see from this example it can take some work to make the W1000 sound just right, and in this respect I do think the more balanced W1000X would be a safer choice for most folks. I'm sure the Anedio D1 -> W1000X would be a very nice setup and a straightforward one at that (whereas with the W1000 I would not recommend skipping a dedicated amp, I almost feel like you need to have tubes somewhere in the chain). The reason I recommended you the W1000 is because of this paragraph:
 
 
Quote:

Sound-wise, I'm more after atmosphere and clarity than punch. I'd also like something sounding mellow, melodic and natural (not to be confused with 'neutral', I don't mind coloration if it makes things more pleasant). I like sounds of running water, wooden instruments, acoustic guitars, piano etc. I do prefer them to obviously synthesized or metallic sounds although I do enjoy myself some light melodic electronica. I'm quite a fan of female vocals. My music collection is full of tracks featuring them, so they really need to sound well. Few semi-random examples from my playlist: Dan Gibson, Meg, Air, Katie Melua, Jazztronik. If this kind of music sounds pleasant in my new headphones, I'll be more than happy.

 
Everything you wrote there just kind of shouts "W1000" to me. The W1000X is known for having more bass than could be considered neutral, and just about everyone I've known who has heard both prefers the W1000 for female vocals. The W1000 conveys ambience in recordings extremely well and pairs nicely with your musical preferences. But this is just my opinion, and I am sure you would be happy with the W1000X as well. I will also agree with the above posters and say it may not be a good idea to rush into things too much, and that it might be more advisable to takes things slowly and get a feel for what your preferences are soundwise (and if you're anything like most of us, this can often be a moving target, which is why so many folks here own multiple headphones). Judging by the quality of your first post, I would say you are already doing better in this regard than most.

 

[laaurora]

I just want to thank everyone in this thread again for helping me to make my choice.
 
Unfortunately or even fortunately, w1000's proved to be quite hard to find where I am, so in order to get them I'd have to order overseas and then deal with our national post service that's not known to be reliable at all. That was additional layer of risk on what looked like a riskier option sound-wise already, so I decided to go with w1000x for now since I could have them from trusted source right away.
 
It's been almost 2 weeks now and original 'wow' effect is gone a bit (I now get wow-ed by hd228's that I put on for comparison sometimes, I never knew they sounded this muffled). But I still enjoy every moment I spend with w1000x's and consider them one of the best purchases I ever made. They made listening to music an adventure and some musical moments give me almost physical pleasure now. This is definitely level music never reached for me before.
 
I have to admit I'm glad bass is there. Although most of my music does not require much of it, its presence does make some of the tracks really spectacular and gives them the volume I can't help admiring. Since this is my only pair of good headphones, I feel I'd be missing out a lot if I went for more bass-shy w1000.
 
I'm still undecided on what I think of female vocals on these. I felt they became more distant and less involving at first, but then I realized it was mostly due to overall lower volume w1000x's made me comfortable with. After going up a bit, I felt they could still get pretty close. On some tracks vocals find it harder to stand out from the background as much as they did before since it (background) is not muddy mess anymore. But then vocal does gain from overall better detailing. I guess I'll take my time to get to better conclusion or probably will just get used to it before I do.
 
A lot of my music sounds really good in w1000x and I found it feeling much easier on my ears. I don't feel like I have hearing problems anymore and good level of detail on lower volume makes me able to listen for much longer than I previously could. They also sit on my head really well, although they are bit heavier than hd201's and they do tend to get a bit warm after a while which is a minor inconvenience. They also give a 'just enough' volume level once plugged into TV/PS3. I could use an option to go a little louder but it doesn't feel like major problem for now.
 
Everything above comes from listening to w1000x's plugged directly into Macbook for now. I'm still taking my time to get to know these headphones better and I wonder if it's even possible to get a significant quality boost from here as it seems some music is more limited by production quality than headphones performance. I'll be upgrading my workstation somewhere in following couple of months, so this is where my money will go for now. I also want to hear headphones playing from bigger Mac first. But I've decided that if (or should I say when) I decide to upgrade my source, I'll probably go for something decent right away since the time I'd use on research, doubts and shopping hopping from one cheaper option to another, could be better used to earn this money. This way I'll walk out of this with bigger quality on my hands for same amount of effort. Anedio D1 is a most likely candidate for now

 

[TheOtus]

Congratulations on the purchase! ;D And welcome to the W1000X-club also. With a better source, you'll love them even more for sure.