[helmutcheese]

I have used all 3 and repeated the same thing over and over in this thread, sometimes you need to make your own decisions.

 

[speedtouchbr]

Hello guys!

Recently I've bought the Vaorlo KB9P and tested with 2 headphones one with aptx hd codec ready and other not. There is an issue not with the sound but with the controls from the headphones on Win 10, with the Sony WCH700N the volume rocker works flawlessly, but with the Soundcore Q45 the volume rocker didn't work.
The only way that it works is when I connect both at the same time, then the Q45 works even disconnecting the Sony, but if I disconnect the Q45 from the KB9P dongle and connect again the volume control don't work.
Someone knows what could be the culprit?

 

[helmutcheese]

I have had similar but not constant, seem temperamental with some earbuds till disconnect then reconnect and pause simply mutes sound as there is no Track Control as it does not support it.

 

[mcnaugha]

Microsoft just added Bluetooth LE audio support to Windows 11 in KB502644, which is considered a preview. Haven’t seen a lot of details about it yet. So, for the moment, I’m assuming it’s just using the LC3 codec.

You’ll need Bluetooth 5.2 or newer hardware in the PC. Then you’ll need receivers with the LC3 codec installed/activated/licensed. Hopefully we could now see the LC3 codec being deployed in firmware updates to receiving devices that had laid the LE Audio support groundwork. Lots of devices had stated LE Audio support but they had not yet licensed and installed the LC3 codec.

@helmutcheese perhaps Luculent will add support for any tweak-able parameters and be able to see if there’s LC3plus as well.

 

[Queven]

I have used all 3 and repeated the same thing over and over in this thread, sometimes you need to make your own decisions.

Ok, then antoher question. Do YOU hear difference between kb9p or BT-W4

 

[slsmaster]

I finally got the BT-W5 to update its firmware by reverse engineering what the FW Update executable under Windows actually does.
The Mac App has no ability to update the FW!

It uses a program called HidDfuUpdater, which uses HidDfu.dll and which requires the MSVC Runtimes to work. Those are missing in a fresh Win 11 install, at least for me.

Here are the files that need to be installed for the FW update to be even possible:
https://aka.ms/vs/17/release/vc_redist.x86.exe
https://aka.ms/vs/17/release/vc_redist.x64.exe

Install both the x64 and x86 binary just to be safe and restart the PC before attempting the update. Another thing worth mentioning is, that the update did not work for me with an ARM Based install of Windows (for example when Virtualizing Windows 11 on an M1/M2 Mac). Only X86 CPUs (aka Intel/AMD) seem to work.

It seems rather odd to me that Creative did not bundle the MSVC Runtimes with their installer.

The crackling is definitely much less frequent with the most recent FW installed, but it is still present from time to time (tested with B&O H95). At least the dongle is now somewhat usable. Will be comparing it with T10P shortly, as I have it on the way.

Still no crackling at all with my ancient Pixel 2 XL via aptX HD.....

 

[jonbullion]

Hi! I have also the H95s but when I connect them to my KB9P sound worse than my macbook pro m1’s bluetooth. Do you connect with aptx adaptive or with aptx HD? Thanks!

 

[slsmaster]

I don’t have the K9P so can’t comment on that one. I use the H95 mostly via aptX HD with my old phone, as the Pixel 2 XL doesn’t support aptX Adaptive, and via aptX Adaptive HQ using BT-W5.
BT-W5 in aptX Adaptive HQ for me sounds identical to my phone but with the mentioned crackling, which does not occur via phone.

From my understanding aptX Adaptive in its HQ preset should sound better or equal than aptX HD, when it can hold its Bitrate at around 420 kbit/s which it often cannot with these dongles, as they don’t seem to offer a very strong signal.

I will be doing a comparison between BT-W5 and T10P using Qudelix 5k to see which dongle can provide a more stable Bitrate.

I think T10P will perform better but we shall see.

Edit: It seems I have sorted out the crackling Issue with BT-W5. For me, when it's connected with USB 3/3.1 speeds the crackling starts. When I connect it with USB 2 speeds (via an Adapter or with an actual USB 2 port), it is fixed. Oh well, it seems Creative didn't spend a lot of effort in designing the BT-W5 and its SW....

 

[O11111]

USB 3/3.1

That sounds like a known issue with USB 3. So that's not software problem, but rather a hardware one. And it's not the problem of BT-W5 (or any other dongle as they're all USB 2), it's probably caused by the insufficient shielding of USB 3 port. Maybe Creative should've done something to prevent noise from USB 3 port to interfere with the antenna, but apparently they didn't do enough.

 

[slsmaster]

That sounds like a known issue with USB 3. So that's not software problem, but rather a hardware one. And it's not the problem of BT-W5 (or any other dongle as they're all USB 2), it's probably caused by the insufficient shielding of USB 3 port. Maybe Creative should've done something to prevent noise from USB 3 port to interfere with the antenna, but apparently they didn't do enough.

Sure seems like it, I use it with this USB C to USB A dongle now which only provides USB2 speeds and it works flawlessly now. Used it for several hours today, not a single crackling noise! The dongle has a blue USB Connector, suggesting it is USB3, but it connects with <USB3 speeds to my Mac as seen below.

Well seems like I won't be needing the T10P after all, but I will still compare the dongles and report back which is better overall.

One question to BT-W5 owners: does automatic switching to HFP work for you with the latest FW and when the toggle is enabled in the App? This seems to be very hit or miss for me, I have to manually switch it to HFP by double pressing the button.

 

[slsmaster]

Guys I received the T10P 2 days ago and compared it against the BT-W5. I am positively surprised by its performance so far.

First things first, what is the same compared to BT-W5:

• The T10P also exhibits crackling/atifacts when directly connected to a USB 3 port. This can be fixed like with BT-W5 by plugging it into a USB 2 port or using an adaptor.

Now to the points T10P peforms better at then BT-W5:

1. The range is noticeably better, meaning it can hold the bitrate better on longer distances. I first connected the BT-W5 to a port on my docking station and connected it to my Qudelix 5K in aptX Adaptive HQ mode. Then I went from my office to the corridor of my apartment (roughly 5m + 1 wall in between). The bitrate settled at 270 kbit/s, which is not very good at all and was fluctuating to even lower values. I noticed that even in the same room, the BT-W5 struggles to hold the 430 kbit/s of aptX HQ mode. I then redid the test by unplugging the BT-W5 and connecting the T10P to the same port via another adaptor. In the same room, T10P in its aptX Adaptive mode is at a rock solid 430 kbit/s. This is the maximum Qudelix 5k is capable of with its aptX Adaptive implementation. I then again went to the corridor and the bitrate settled at 370 kbit/s, a much better result! Also the bitrate was fluctuating much less. Overall this leads to a sound identical to my Pixel 2 XL via aptX HD, BT-W5 often sounds a little compressed due to the bitrate fluctuating more frequently.
2. T10P does not need a SW and actually gives the user the choice of switching between codecs with a quick tipple press. This is very useful for use with my H95, as they have aptX Adaptive but perform better via aptX HD. You can identify the used codecs as follows during playback of audio (verified via Qudelix 5k):
   1. 3 X Green light flashing: aptX Adaptive in its HQ Preset (there is no LL preset, but you don't need it with this device)
   2. 1 X Green light flashing: aptX HD (nice!)
   3. 5 X Green light flashing: aptX
   4. No green light flashing: SBC
3. Auto Switching to HFP modes (Headset mode) works quicker than with BT-W5 and more reliably. I have an issue where BT-W5 sporadically will not automatically switch to HFP mode and I have to manually do so by pressing the button twice.
4. Latency is noticeably better when comparing aptX Adaptive HQ on both devices. T10p has around 33ms of delay using it with an M1 MacBook Air, which is exceptional with 430 kbit/s! This is good enough for watching YouTube videos without noticing lip sync issues. BT-W5 has 66ms in my test, which introduces noticeable lip sync issues when watching videos on YouTube. I used this video for testing the audio/video sync:

Points where BT-W5 performs better:

1. It has an SW, but on MacOS it really isn't the best. You can't even update its FW with it. But yeah I guess at least it has one.
2. It's smaller and doesn't have an antenna.
   1. Drawback: This leads to a noticeably weaker signal. Could be useful for mobile use though, but one could argue that T10P could also be used with a smaller aftermarket antenna for that use case. Also when using the BT-W5 mobile there is no possibility to switch between LL and HQ mode, as you need the SW for that.
3. It has a LL mode with no perceivable lag, at least I can't notice one in the latency test video above.
   1. Drawback: This mode caps the max bitrate to 276 kbit/s. Not useful for music listening and watching movies, but useful for competitive gaming I guess. I would still rather use the T10P with a lag of 33ms but with HQ sound though.

That's pretty much it. Overall, I would not buy the BT-W5 again as I have no use for its close to 0 latency in aptX Adaptive LL mode and its lag is very bad in HQ mode compared to T10P. Also the range is bad, which is to be expected with its size and no external antenna. If you are a gamer and value a non perceivable lag, then I guess you have to buy both -> T10P for HQ content consumption with minimal lag, BT-W5 for gaming.

For the price Creative is charging for the BT-W5 it's almost hilarious a dongle from AliExpress is so much better in so many points. Another proof that price does not always lead to a better performing product.

Edit: If some of you guys are interested in the lag of T10P in its other modes let me know. The user manual states that T10 in fact has aptX LL (not aptX Adaptive LL), but it seems that the Qudelix 5k does not support that mode.

 

[LoryWiv]

Guys I received the T10P 2 days ago and compared it against the BT-W5. I am positively surprised by its performance so far.

First things first, what is the same compared to BT-W5:

• The T10P also exhibits crackling/atifacts when directly connected to a USB 3 port. This can be fixed like with BT-W5 by plugging it into a USB 2 port or using an adaptor.

Now to the points T10P peforms better at then BT-W5:

1. The range is noticeably better, meaning it can hold the bitrate better on longer distances. I first connected the BT-W5 to a port on my docking station and connected it to my Qudelix 5K in aptX Adaptive HQ mode. Then I went from my office to the corridor of my apartment (roughly 5m + 1 wall in between). The bitrate settled at 270 kbit/s, which is not very good at all and was fluctuating to even lower values. I noticed that even in the same room, the BT-W5 struggles to hold the 430 kbit/s of aptX HQ mode. I then redid the test by unplugging the BT-W5 and connecting the T10P to the same port via another adaptor. In the same room, T10P in its aptX Adaptive mode is at a rock solid 430 kbit/s. This is the maximum Qudelix 5k is capable of with its aptX Adaptive implementation. I then again went to the corridor and the bitrate settled at 370 kbit/s, a much better result! Also the bitrate was fluctuating much less. Overall this leads to a sound identical to my Pixel 2 XL via aptX HD, BT-W5 often sounds a little compressed due to the bitrate fluctuating more frequently.
2. T10P does not need a SW and actually gives the user the choice of switching between codecs with a quick tipple press. This is very useful for use with my H95, as they have aptX Adaptive but perform better via aptX HD. You can identify the used codecs as follows during playback of audio (verified via Qudelix 5k):
   1. 3 X Green light flashing: aptX Adaptive in its HQ Preset (there is no LL preset, but you don't need it with this device)
   2. 1 X Green light flashing: aptX HD (nice!)
   3. 5 X Green light flashing: aptX
   4. No green light flashing: SBC
3. Auto Switching to HFP modes (Headset mode) works quicker than with BT-W5 and more reliably. I have an issue where BT-W5 sporadically will not automatically switch to HFP mode and I have to manually do so by pressing the button twice.
4. Latency is noticeably better when comparing aptX Adaptive HQ on both devices. T10p has around 33ms of delay using it with an M1 MacBook Air, which is exceptional with 430 kbit/s! This is good enough for watching YouTube videos without noticing lip sync issues. BT-W5 has 66ms in my test, which introduces noticeable lip sync issues when watching videos on YouTube. I used this video for testing the audio/video sync:

Points where BT-W5 performs better:

1. It has an SW, but on MacOS it really isn't the best. You can't even update its FW with it. But yeah I guess at least it has one.
2. It's smaller and doesn't have an antenna.
   1. Drawback: This leads to a noticeably weaker signal. Could be useful for mobile use though, but one could argue that T10P could also be used with a smaller aftermarket antenna for that use case. Also when using the BT-W5 mobile there is no possibility to switch between LL and HQ mode, as you need the SW for that.
3. It has a LL mode with no perceivable lag, at least I can't notice one in the latency test video above.
   1. Drawback: This mode caps the max bitrate to 276 kbit/s. Not useful for music listening and watching movies, but useful for competitive gaming I guess. I would still rather use the T10P with a lag of 33ms but with HQ sound though.

That's pretty much it. Overall, I would not buy the BT-W5 again as I have no use for its close to 0 latency in aptX Adaptive LL mode and its lag is very bad in HQ mode compared to T10P. Also the range is bad, which is to be expected with its size and no external antenna. If you are a gamer and value a non perceivable lag, then I guess you have to buy both -> T10P for HQ content consumption with minimal lag, BT-W5 for gaming.

For the price Creative is charging for the BT-W5 it's almost hilarious a dongle from AliExpress is so much better in so many points. Another proof that price does not always lead to a better performing product.

Edit: If some of you guys are interested in the lag of T10P in its other modes let me know. The user manual states that T10 in fact has aptX LL (not aptX Adaptive LL), but it seems that the Qudelix 5k does not support that mode.

Fantastic job comparing the two, thank you @slsmaster! One other area I am curious about is whether either can achieve 24 / 96 in AptX adaptive. Using FiiO BTR7 as receiver from my Vaorlo KB9P display only show it hits 24 / 48, and hoping BT-W5 can reach 24 / 96. I have one incoming and will test of course when arrives.

 

[helmutcheese]

The BT-W5 unlike the BT-W4 is officially 24/96 BT (both are 24/96 USB).

Be nice to have a LED or LCD screen at the other end to confirm this but none of my devices have this bar one and that is only for Codec not bitrate.

 

[LoryWiv]

The BT-W5 unlike the BT-W4 is officially 24/96 BT (both are 24/96 USB).

Be nice to have a LED or LCD screen at the other end to confirm this but none of my device have thisa bar one and that is only for Codec not bitrate.

I will report back once BT-W5 arrives!

 

[slsmaster]

Well, I have decided to sell my BT-W5 on eBay. I again compared it to the T10P and the T10P is just the better product for my needs and in my opinion. SQ is superior due to the ability to switch to aptX HD (for receivers that don't fair well with aptX Adaptive) and the generally higher aptX Adaptive Bitrates which is even more important than sample rate.
Funny enough: when using my H95s, its latency is worse with aptX Adaptive than with aptX HD in combination with the T10P. I think the H95 is not very well implemented for use with aptX Adaptive. Using it via aptX HD + T10P gives me almost 0 latency, like with BT-W5 in LL mode but with a much better SQ.

FYI: when using both the T10P and the BT-W5 neighter of them could exceed 48kHz with Qudelix 5k. I think that the receiver also needs to be capable of 96khz, which is part of the later aptX Adaptive revisions. There seems to be multiple versions of the standard. More found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/sa0x2e/psa_not_all_aptx_adaptive_products_are_the_same/