[GoldenSound]

Can you link good measurements of holo in nos mode for 1khz tone or 32 tone.

I did, see the link to atomic Bob's measurements in one of my previous replies.

 

[rkt31]

1) it doesn't measure poorly in nos mode. That's the point. Have a look at the multiple third party measurements available from various sources.

2) impulse response describes the filter design and how it will affect music and sequential samples.
And to reiterate: lack of oversampling does not mean a lack of reconstruction. You can do reconstruction in the analog domain with an r2r dac. And yes, this then shifts the question of performance away from maths and more onto the design and quality of Components used for that reconstruction. But again, as shown by various measurements, the may performs exceptionally in just about every metric.

Im not saying that nos vs os is better. They are simply different. (as said in the first post). Just as chords filter design approach is different from other manufacturers.

There are plenty of resources you can look at to see how ringing and phase shift affect continuous waveforms. Archimago has a decent article on it.

Ok if it measures good in nos mode then please link cd quality file measurements in nos mode.

 

[driftingbunnies]

Can you link good measurements of holo in nos mode for 1khz tone or 32 tone.

Please provide measurements of any dac in OS mode for 32 tones.

Edit: Actually, are you looking for this? Taken from this link https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

 

[GoldenSound]

Ok if it measures good in nos mode then please link cd quality file measurements in nos mode.

Ok if it measures good in nos mode then please link cd quality file measurements in nos mode.

As mentioned several times, I have already: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/kte-may-technical-measurements.8933/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

As to the concern of truncating bits, I have no idea where that comes from. The may performs better with low level information than the DAVE does (though both are exceptional regardless)

Dave :

May:

 

[Thenewguy007]

Can you link good measurements of holo in nos mode for 1khz tone or 32 tone.

You realllly care about that 1khz tone don't you.

 

[rkt31]

Please provide measurements of any dac in OS mode for 32 tones.

Edit: Actually, are you looking for this? Taken from this link https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

Are you sure it is in nos mode ?

 

[driftingbunnies]

Are you sure it is in nos mode ?

Are you sure it isn't?

 

[rkt31]

Are you sure it isn't?

I couldn't find that in asr.

 

[GU1DO]

Ok if it measures good in nos mode then please link cd quality file measurements in nos mode.

We understand that you trust numbers more than your ears like any other member in ASR forums , NOS doesn't mean bad , i am using my R7 dac from AudioGD (which is highly regarded brand in ASR forums ) and i can not hear the distortion that numbers make it look like the dac is broken , it just sound soooo lovely , so please spare us from your over hyping of measurements.

 

[rkt31]

We understand that you trust numbers more than your ears like any other member in ASR forums , NOS doesn't mean bad , i am using my R7 dac from AudioGD (which is highly regarded brand in ASR forums ) and i can not hear the distortion that numbers make it look like the dac is broken , it just sound soooo lovely , so please spare us from your over hyping of measurements.

Nos will not be bad with high resolution.

 

[]eep]

very interesting review! A comparison like this is not something you see everyday. Not a lot of people have the opportunity to do so and its hard to get any good information comparing top tier units with different technologies.

There are certain sites with zealous believers in the scientism cult that think they can decide from a few measurements how much a dac is capable of conveying something very complex as emotion. Which is the main purpose of music. They hijack science, strip it down, claim it as proof for their theories and reject anything that does not follow the worldview they wish to be true. They go intrude into threads like this and claim the 'moral' highground to 'save' everybody from these 'alternate facts'. Why do they feel the need to ruin other peoples work and pleasure? Why are you here? Flamebaiter. Go make your own topic, so we can avoid misers like you.
Stop hijacking real science and stop twisting it into religion. And stop telling people what to think (actually; not to think and just follow dogma) and consuming other peoples time answering your pre-conceived questions.

For others, and Goldenone; best advice is to ignore . Don't read their questions so you don't get baited and lose even more time and energy. Focus that on the good things you are doing. Discussion is good but they're not here for that. No argument however logical or true or unavoidable can ever convince them.

I've done my own research into Dac's for over 10 years now, comparing, testing, listening, modifying. I came to the conclusion that there's something inherently wrong with oversampling, delta sigma dac's and right with ladder dac's. Also delta sigma dacs are incredibly noisy, they contain loads of non-harmonic HF noise that has to be filtered out. And most important; they have temporal artefacts that do not occur in nature; pre-ringing,that can't be filtered out.

R2R is much better and cleaner in the timedomain. While testing with pilot-tones at 0dB i could hear all the 'bad' side frequencies and artefacts on a filterless NOS R2R. That is why they are lambasted for their 'bad measuring' performance. But the raison d'etre of a dac is NOT measuring it. It is meant to facilitate listening to music. With harmonics, echoes, reverb, and correct natural transients. When listening to my R2R NOS dac with the filter stripped i heard none of those stray tones or noise, just more unexaggerated clean details, great sense of ambiance and great tone.

Here's where I come to the 'Kitsune tuned' part. Yes, it has all the appearance of 'snakeoil', but its not. It's like D/S dacs put all their effort into algorythms and brute force aproach to technology. Because chips are cheap. And R2R, is... well... too simple. An anomaly, old tech, quaint. But since there are less parts in the signal path you can give more attention to just the parts that matter. Every part adds a sonic signature. In a tubeamp there are just a handful of parts (6) in the signal path and just changing tubes makes a difference, but what most dont look at are the coupling caps. Who cares because they all measure the same so they all sound the same and thats an easy point to 'save money'. Nobody looks inside at the caps but the tubes are in view. Someone who ever substituted those caps for better types will know what a huge difference they make! The same goes for those caps in the output stage of an R2R dac.

So I have no doubt the 'Kitsune tuned' edition sounds better. Only, do the premium parts justify the extra money? And why let them decide what is best? I like to flavor my own food to my taste but not everyone can cook. So you go to a restaurant and pay premium. I don't ever hear those 'techies' moaning about restaurant pricing. Probably because out of principle they will never set a foot over the threshold because hamburgers and fries measure just the same...

 

[Whitigir]

What PC build are you running HQplayer out of

 

[GoldenSound]

Here's where I come to the 'Kitsune tuned' part. Yes, it has all the appearance of 'snakeoil', but its not. It's like D/S dacs put all their effort into algorythms and brute force aproach to technology. Because chips are cheap. And R2R, is... well... too simple. An anomaly, old tech, quaint. But since there are less parts in the signal path you can give more attention to just the parts that matter. Every part adds a sonic signature. In a tubeamp there are just a handful of parts (6) in the signal path and just changing tubes makes a difference, but what most dont look at are the coupling caps. Who cares because they all measure the same so they all sound the same and thats an easy point to 'save money'. Nobody looks inside at the caps but the tubes are in view. Someone who ever substituted those caps for better types will know what a huge difference they make! The same goes for those caps in the output stage of an R2R dac.

I completely agree, and that's why I ordered from wildism. My issue with Kitsune is that their "Kitsune capacitors" seem to simply be rebadged stock ones.
Wildism however uses all audionote/mundorf/jensen capacitors and hence I was keen to purchase from them instead.

Its not that I don't think changing caps etc will make a difference, i'm sure it can, its just the specific changes kitsune is making I don't believe are anything other than aesthetic changes.
I could well be wrong, but I didn't feel comfortable buying kitsune for that reason.

 

[GoldenSound]

What PC build are you running HQplayer out of

I'm using a 3950x.
HQP can offload processing to the GPU for some filters though. And additionally the PCM upsampling isn't hugely intensive. Its the PDM modulation that REALLY works your CPU.

 

[rkt31]

very interesting review! A comparison like this is not something you see everyday. Not a lot of people have the opportunity to do so and its hard to get any good information comparing top tier units with different technologies.

There are certain sites with zealous believers in the scientism cult that think they can decide from a few measurements how much a dac is capable of conveying something very complex as emotion. Which is the main purpose of music. They hijack science, strip it down, claim it as proof for their theories and reject anything that does not follow the worldview they wish to be true. They go intrude into threads like this and claim the 'moral' highground to 'save' everybody from these 'alternate facts'. Why do they feel the need to ruin other peoples work and pleasure? Why are you here? Flamebaiter. Go make your own topic, so we can avoid misers like you.
Stop hijacking real science and stop twisting it into religion. And stop telling people what to think (actually; not to think and just follow dogma) and consuming other peoples time answering your pre-conceived questions.

For others, and Goldenone; best advice is to ignore . Don't read their questions so you don't get baited and lose even more time and energy. Focus that on the good things you are doing. Discussion is good but they're not here for that. No argument however logical or true or unavoidable can ever convince them.

I've done my own research into Dac's for over 10 years now, comparing, testing, listening, modifying. I came to the conclusion that there's something inherently wrong with oversampling, delta sigma dac's and right with ladder dac's. Also delta sigma dacs are incredibly noisy, they contain loads of non-harmonic HF noise that has to be filtered out. And most important; they have temporal artefacts that do not occur in nature; pre-ringing,that can't be filtered out.

R2R is much better and cleaner in the timedomain. While testing with pilot-tones at 0dB i could hear all the 'bad' side frequencies and artefacts on a filterless NOS R2R. That is why they are lambasted for their 'bad measuring' performance. But the raison d'etre of a dac is NOT measuring it. It is meant to facilitate listening to music. With harmonics, echoes, reverb, and correct natural transients. When listening to my R2R NOS dac with the filter stripped i heard none of those stray tones or noise, just more unexaggerated clean details, great sense of ambiance and great tone.

Here's where I come to the 'Kitsune tuned' part. Yes, it has all the appearance of 'snakeoil', but its not. It's like D/S dacs put all their effort into algorythms and brute force aproach to technology. Because chips are cheap. And R2R, is... well... too simple. An anomaly, old tech, quaint. But since there are less parts in the signal path you can give more attention to just the parts that matter. Every part adds a sonic signature. In a tubeamp there are just a handful of parts (6) in the signal path and just changing tubes makes a difference, but what most dont look at are the coupling caps. Who cares because they all measure the same so they all sound the same and thats an easy point to 'save money'. Nobody looks inside at the caps but the tubes are in view. Someone who ever substituted those caps for better types will know what a huge difference they make! The same goes for those caps in the output stage of an R2R dac.

So I have no doubt the 'Kitsune tuned' edition sounds better. Only, do the premium parts justify the extra money? And why let them decide what is best? I like to flavor my own food to my taste but not everyone can cook. So you go to a restaurant and pay premium. I don't ever hear those 'techies' moaning about restaurant pricing. Probably because out of principle they will never set a foot over the threshold because hamburgers and fries measure just the same...

There are more ways to get distortion. Fm or even am radio has even more distortion, if at all you like nos distortions. Btw somewhere I read that holo may sounds more like ds dac, may be due to the fact it measures better than many other r2r dacs.