AKG K3003 High End 3 Way System Headphone
Apr 12, 2013 at 9:01 PM Post #871 of 4,058
Quote:
that's right. trying to find a place that has a demo pair. i'd be starting out with the reference filter but that's just me.
wink.gif

 
You really should have admitted you hadn't heard it earlier.
 
Apr 12, 2013 at 9:14 PM Post #872 of 4,058
pull your claws in kitty. um, didn't know there was anything to admit to. thought it was pretty obvious that i'm interested in the phone and keen to hear it. that's why I'm here. :)

*had to edit this because of missing posts - wouldn't make sense otherwise.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 1:14 AM Post #874 of 4,058
I brought the AKG K3003's tonight to keep demo'ing them before deciding to purchase or not. This time around, I listened for about 5 hours with only the reference filter; and as much as I like these, they're not as close as I thought they could be in terms of high frequency timbre vs the HE6 or HD800. 
 
Even then, these are earbuds, and I find them quite incredible. The first time I listened to them I heard a polarizing different sound. First one was one of the first 500 produced, I could put my ear on a problem between the bass driver synchronicity with the midrange driver; it sounded like there was a cut off at about 100~200 hz with missing information. The highs were also more grainy and unpleasant. I haven't changed equipment since then.
 
The one I am currently demo'ing is 5208 and I really like the sound quality with the Hifiman HM-901 I have on loan and even the iphone 5.
 
I was reading that AKG retweaked the crossover calibration and drivers from about S.N 2000+ on erji.net (thanks to Google translate). So far after my second 5+ hour demo I tend to agree.
 

 
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Apr 13, 2013 at 1:54 AM Post #875 of 4,058
don't think they're meant to be worn over ear bro judging by where the remote is.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 2:51 AM Post #876 of 4,058
Quote:
I brought the AKG K3003's tonight to keep demo'ing them before deciding to purchase or not. This time around, I listened for about 5 hours with only the reference filter; and as much as I like these, they're not as close as I thought they could be in terms of high frequency timbre vs the HE6 or HD800. 
 
Even then, these are earbuds, and I find them quite incredible. The first time I listened to them I heard a polarizing different sound. First one was one of the first 500 produced, I could put my ear on a problem between the bass driver synchronicity with the midrange driver; it sounded like there was a cut off at about 100~200 hz with missing information. The highs were also more grainy and unpleasant. I haven't changed equipment since then.
 
The one I am currently demo'ing is 5208 and I really like the sound quality with the Hifiman HM-901 I have on loan and even the iphone 5.
 
I was reading that AKG retweaked the crossover calibration and drivers from about S.N 2000+ on erji.net (thanks to Google translate). So far after my second 5+ hour demo I tend to agree.


Ah that is quite interesting. I even heard stories about them changing the filters and thus changing the sound of the units. I'd be very curious to hear the IEM again if indeed it has improved. I agree with you on the coherency between the bass. I think the pair I had was an early unit as well which may account for the discrepancies you mention.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 4:40 AM Post #877 of 4,058
Quote:
I brought the AKG K3003's tonight to keep demo'ing them before deciding to purchase or not. This time around, I listened for about 5 hours with only the reference filter; and as much as I like these, they're not as close as I thought they could be in terms of high frequency timbre vs the HE6 or HD800. 
 
Even then, these are earbuds, and I find them quite incredible. The first time I listened to them I heard a polarizing different sound. First one was one of the first 500 produced, I could put my ear on a problem between the bass driver synchronicity with the midrange driver; it sounded like there was a cut off at about 100~200 hz with missing information. The highs were also more grainy and unpleasant. I haven't changed equipment since then.
 
The one I am currently demo'ing is 5208 and I really like the sound quality with the Hifiman HM-901 I have on loan and even the iphone 5.
 
I was reading that AKG retweaked the crossover calibration and drivers from about S.N 2000+ on erji.net (thanks to Google translate). So far after my second 5+ hour demo I tend to agree.
 

 
I no longer own the remote/mic version of the K3003s, but, iirc, I'm almost sure you're wearing them the wrong way round (L & R, that is).
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 7:52 AM Post #878 of 4,058
Quote:
 
Don't forget it's an expensive IEM. People are going to be more sensitive to any aspect they think is less than perfect at its price.

 
And they bloody well should!
 
However, in my view, what's happened with the K3003 bashing, unfortunately, hasn't always been exactly what you suggest, but I won't go there — but I'll say this, some of the very harsh criticism has been unwarranted and severely exaggerated, IMO, even for a $1,300 product.
 
I have myself been very critical of (very) expensive products, products I've owned and tested thoroughly, and even mentioned a couple of aspects where I think there's room for improvement on the K3003s, particularly on the remote/mic version of it (known as K3003i).
 
EDIT: Just noticed you added the following to the above post:
 
 
I am fairly under-confident that I'll have a positive impression of the K3003, but expecting the worst, if anything, leaves me a lot of room to be pleasantly surprised.

 
 

 
Test them properly and note that these IEMs do NOT require a deep insertion (one problem with a couple of the people who rated them so slow). Although people refer to these as "In-Ear Monitors" (IEMs), several people are still fairly unfamiliar with different types of, er, IEMs (perhaps only having owned the Etymotic type that requires a deeeep insertion to sound its best); there are MANY vented IEMs that do not benefit sonically from a deep insertion (vents may be blocked, or nozzle does not lend itself to that sort of insertion), they require a shallow-ish insertion, like the K3003s do. Also, NOT all IEMs are meant to isolate as much as customs or Etymotics (or even a Westone/Shure type of IEM), something even some experienced people (used to full-sized phones and/or speakers mostly) do not seem to be fully aware of — note also that not everyone is looking for the most isolation they can get (there are downsides to such very isolating IEMs / customs).
 
Bear in mind, too, there are three filters that come with the K3003s; most people seem to prefer the "reference" filter, followed by the "treble" filter; most did not seem to care for the "bass boost" filter — try and test ALL of them.
 
If you take note of the above and test these IEMs properly, then be as merciless as you like, if need be, in your comments / impressions / review.

 
Noted! I'll try and remember this for the May show. I'm sure I'll remember about the filters at least. I have a wide variety of music I listen and test with so I'll probably be able to figure it out pretty quickly.
 
Quote:
 
Just about every pair of top-of-the-line IEMs I've tried over the last few years has either a: had a stupid frequency response, eg: vastly excessive bass or treble, and/or makes drum hits sound more like someone thumping a table. The only pair that has got it close to right for me was the Sony XBA-3 (and now XBA-30 as Sony quite promptly responded to feedback and fixed a few things). I've even rejected the FitEar 334. I almost forgot the TDK Magnetic Armature (not a typo) IEMs which are remarkably <$100. Reminds me that I should pick up a pair sometime for a serious evaluation. 

 
Hi Currawong,
 
I know what you mean by the drum hits being false on most iems, its something I tend to listen for as well. For me though the killer is acoustic bass - so far only 2 iems can capture the body and sustain of that instrument, the K3003 and, by far the best, the Stax Sr001 which should be no surprise. Other contenders I've had/have/auditioned including the 535, TF10, Eq7, Heaven S, CK100pro, (and the XBA3)  etc all failed to present to me that instrument and instead gave me an artificial rendering - in some cases, no reverb, in others a flat, short sound. I'd note that only some 20% of my music contains this instrument - I just think any competent device should be able to reproduce it.
 
I see the issue of flaws more related to the concrete reproduction of an instrument, than to so-called 'technicalities', which I think relate more to driver cross-over points or extremes of driver performance. The nature of the dynamic driver bass in the K3003- like that of the bass armature in the XBA3 - captures the peculiarities of a particular instrument well due to it encompassing the performance of that instrument in tone, texture, speed and impact. I would be unsurprised if this was not what the designers were aiming for...
 
regards,
 
Giles
 
 

 
This is one of those cases where we really need to talk to someone in AKG who designed them and ask them what was going on with the design I reckon. I was discussing something similar with another member who has a big issue with instruments sounding unnatural with most headphones, to him at least.  It's something I hope to ponder more in the future, preferably with the help of some actual instruments or a band.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 8:02 AM Post #879 of 4,058
Quote:
I brought the AKG K3003's tonight to keep demo'ing them before deciding to purchase or not. This time around, I listened for about 5 hours with only the reference filter; and as much as I like these, they're not as close as I thought they could be in terms of high frequency timbre vs the HE6 or HD800. 
 
Even then, these are earbuds, and I find them quite incredible. The first time I listened to them I heard a polarizing different sound. First one was one of the first 500 produced, I could put my ear on a problem between the bass driver synchronicity with the midrange driver; it sounded like there was a cut off at about 100~200 hz with missing information. The highs were also more grainy and unpleasant. I haven't changed equipment since then.
 
The one I am currently demo'ing is 5208 and I really like the sound quality with the Hifiman HM-901 I have on loan and even the iphone 5.
 
I was reading that AKG retweaked the crossover calibration and drivers from about S.N 2000+ on erji.net (thanks to Google translate). So far after my second 5+ hour demo I tend to agree.
 


If you don't mind my asking, where did you get a demo pair in Canada? I'd love to hear a pair but have been reluctant to buy a pair to try them.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 10:42 AM Post #880 of 4,058
Quote:
 
I no longer own the remote/mic version of the K3003s, but, iirc, I'm almost sure you're wearing them the wrong way round (L & R, that is).

I know I'm wearing it the wrong way, that's one of the only drawbacks with it for me (comfort); but I find it more comfortable that way. Thankfully it does not change the sound space (except your recording behind swapped channels), otherwise I'd wear it properly. It is annoying having the microphone so high though I must admit.
Quote:
If you don't mind my asking, where did you get a demo pair in Canada? I'd love to hear a pair but have been reluctant to buy a pair to try them.

I work at a HiFi store called Layton Audio and we have a demo.
 
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Apr 13, 2013 at 4:14 PM Post #881 of 4,058
Quote:
Excellent post, purrin.
 
I only wish you had also tried the "reference" filter (the one most seem to prefer, the one AKG themselves regard as, er, "reference") — IIRC, you only tried the "treble boost" filter. Also wish you had not tried so hard, as you noted a while ago, to shove them in (read: attempted a very deep insertion). Perhaps a bit of tip rolling might have also yieded different results, something very common with universal IEMs. Like I said a few days ago, that's not to say you would necessarily come to different conclusions—you might even find the "reference" filter worse-sounding, even—but there's a (good) chance you might have viewed them differently, or at best not as flawed.

 
I've actually had another chance to more properly assess the K3003 since then. IMO, the reference vs. high boost filter is another one of those compromises: With the reference filter, the treble peak, though still evident, is tolerable. Unfortunately, the reference filter tends to lower the overall treble slightly too much for my tastes. In addition, the treble filter also seems to decrease the K3003 resolving capabilities, to the extent where I feel it doesn't compete against other higher-end designs.
 
I think this might be your case; that you’ve developed an “incoherency allergy”. As soon as you hear incoherency your mind becomes negatively hyper sensitive to it, whereas the rest of us can simply enjoy its effects just as those who haven’t had too much whiskey to drink can enjoy its effects. The fact that none of the IEMs you mention are hybrids (all BA based, except the dynamic Shure E2C), strengthens me in my theory. I wouldn’t be surprised if the very word “hybrid” makes you shiver, no?

 
I wouldn't say that hybrids make me shiver. I've heard many a panel mated with woofers done well (just not Martin Logan). The issue with IEM hybrids is that there aren't that many of them and the approach has not yet had time to mature; although I think there are a few more of them now than a year ago when I first heard the K3003. Personally, I'd love to hear a good two or three-way dynamic IEM (if such exists), but the packaging constraints of IEMs may inhibit such a design.
 
As far as your whiskey allergy analogy, I'm not sure I would agree with that. Whiskey allergy implies that the coherence issue is experienced by few people on an exception basis (70% of my HF friends in real life and I stock various fine whiskeys, scotches, and bourbons in the house, and I know not a single person who is adverse to whiskies.) Perhaps pollen allergy or exhaust fume allergy is a more apt description given the results of the poll. 
biggrin.gif

 
But I think I know what you are getting it. I once tasted a Indo-Paki dish made at Whole Foods (an organic gourmet food store in the USA usually staffed by mostly white hippy-looking chicks and doods) which had serious incoherency issues with the flavor. So every time I'm in the mood for Indo-Pak, I go to a place actually run by Pakistanis, and avoid the gourmet food stores with the white hippy-looking chicks and doods.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 6:48 PM Post #882 of 4,058
Quote:
 
I've actually had another chance to more properly assess the K3003 since then. IMO, the reference vs. high boost filter is another one of those compromises: With the reference filter, the treble peak, though still evident, is tolerable. Unfortunately, the reference filter tends to lower the overall treble slightly too much for my tastes. In addition, the treble filter also seems to decrease the K3003 resolving capabilities, to the extent where I feel it doesn't compete against other higher-end designs.
 

 
Fair enough and thanks for adding a few extra thoughts and an update.

I trust the second time around you spent a bit more time with the AKGs and tried varying degrees of insertion (and maybe even the odd aftermarket tip). Regardless, like I said before, perhaps you'd still come to the same or very similar conclusions you did the first time round. Or perhaps not as harsh, or not rated the K3003s as low as you originally did.

Anyway, here's a few things I feel should be taken into account with regards to the K3003s, aspects which will be viewed / rated differently by each user, and aspects which different reviewers sometimes either don't notice much /overlook or don't consider very relevant.

Design & build quality.

Form factor: For such small (tiny almost) housings to be able to pump out such (good) SQ is quite a feat in itself. For several users, to find the sonics of such a small device to be fairly close to the pretty bulky, non-portable HD800's sonics, seems quite an achievement, certainly in my book.

I personally don't like the design of custom IEMs or customs made universals (they all seem like hearing aids to me [and other people] no matter how cool-looking the faceplates mat be). BUT, that's a personal preference I know many on HF don't share / care about.

One seemingly irrelevant aspect of the K3003 is that you can have a cable-down fit or an over-the-ear fit — I favour the former.

Another similarly unimportant aspect, or largely overlooked—thought to me and others seems very important—is the K3003's absolutely non-microphonic cable, one of the biggest downsides of the new $1,000 Sennheiser IE800, the $1,350 FitEar 334 and, apparently, of the now rather popular 1 Plus 2. The 334 has quite large housings, much bigger than those of the K3003, an issue with not everyone has been too happy with. The 1p2s, by all accounts, seem to have even bigger housings than the 334s and some people have reported issues with said design, with some also reporting issues with the tips not fitting properly (not remaining firmly secure on the nozzles).

The K3003s have what appear to be practically indestructible housings, made of one single piece of stainless steel (not aluminum).

Filters can easily be swapped quickly, with a very precise and secure fit, and no extra tools. In addition, the filters can easily be washed/cleaned.

Yes, a detachable cable would be desirable by many on the K3003s and that may well be a deal breaker for some, but I'm almost convinced AKG felt the very small design would have been (severely) compromised. Still, something definitely for people to consider, particularly if they're prone to 'abusing' their IEMs. You do get a 2-year warranty, but that may still not be enough for a product in this price range.

Sonics.

You, in particular, through your years of experience with speakers and high-end gear, may be much more familiar with, sensitive of, or able to discern, very minute changes/differences (flaws?) that not only the average listener, but even the odd seasoned 'audiophile' may not detect, not so easily detect, or detect but still not consider a serious issue / flaw (a deal breaker), and find such a small piece of sonic engineering to be very much worthwhile, perhaps not perfect but certainly worth it.

If your rating, purrin, was based on SQ alone and price-to-performance, I suppose, in your particular case, you may not rate the AKGs very highly, though other seasoned HF'ers, on SQ alone, rate it quite highly.

There are several experienced HF'ers, none of which are suspect of being shills or having hyping tendencies—something I know you're very familiar with and have been very critical of, and I applaud you for it—such as k3oxkjo, james444, piotrus-g, tumburu, MuppetFace, shutgunshane & music_4321, who have rated the AKGs very highly. Even Joker and avarage_joe—two HF'ers I personally don't always put too much stock in their reviews (and no offence meant to them), and who I feel tend to favour multi-BA IEMs and customs (over DD IEMs and universals), rated the K3003s pretty highly, specially Joker.

Now, I came across a couple of very brief posts by Tyll (on different sites) where I learnt he wasn't all that keen on the AKGs, saying that for that money the JH13 was the obvious choice (or words to that effect). I've no idea how he tested the K3003s and if he, perhaps like you originally, went about auditioning them the wrong way. No idea.

But, here's the thing, and it was a constant for many months before the K3003s were released and for a few months after they were finally in people's hands / ears: Some people seem to insist that for this kind of money customs is the only logical way to go. It may well be for some / many, but it certainly isn't for (many) others  — now, to take a statement like Tyll's as fact just isn't right, at least not right for everyone.

There are a number of issues with custom IEMs many people are still unfamiliar with / unaware of, though judging by what we've seen in the last year alone, new high-end customs turned universals, it seems several manufacturers are realising there is a market for said products (just look at Heir Audio and their cheaper entry-level customs turned universals).

And yet, we still find people like me, who find the K3003 quite a bit better sonically than their $850 customs (Westone ES3X). An experienced 'audiophile' and reviewer compared the $500 EX1000 to the JH16 in some aspects. And there have been people who openly have preferred a high-end universal over a good pair of customs (james444 himself seems to prefer his FI-BA-SS & K3003s over the very highly regarded UERM).

I personally found the Sony EX1000's bass sometimes ever so slightly more textured / refined, but the EX1000's has a 16mm dynamic driver. I think the K3003's is either half that size or 6mm (nearly a third of the size). This is, of course, also related to design.

How much should one pay for an item like the K3003s, an audio device where the manufacturer spent time and money on R&D, a piece of gear that is manufactured in a country (Austria) with very high labour costs.?

So, what's the point of all the above, aspects which may seem all too obvious perhaps or simply rehashed? The point, among other things, is that the views of some people like you, Tyll, LFF, Jude or Currawong (and Joker and average_joe) carry much more weight that those of many, many others. As such, when all of you praise or trash a piece of gear, your comments will be noted / taken (very) seriously by many. There is an obvious element of responsibility all of you should always try keep in mind.

I do respect and even value some of your 'shock' no-nonsense approach after so much hype seen in these forums and elsewhere. I think this time, in the case of the K3003s, though, you could have done things a little differently.
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 9:55 PM Post #883 of 4,058
I wish AKG would really rethink the design of their IEM. The cables is atrocious at the housings themselves... That ultimately is my biggest issues with these IEMs. I'd be extremely pissed with the cables going out just out of warranty :frowning2:... Otherwise the metal housing (although it could be a bit uncomfortable inside my ears) is a very durable design and spells quality.
 
 
Apr 13, 2013 at 10:55 PM Post #884 of 4,058
Quote:
I wish AKG would really rethink the design of their IEM. The cables is atrocious at the housings themselves... That ultimately is my biggest issues with these IEMs. I'd be extremely pissed with the cables going out just out of warranty :frowning2:... Otherwise the metal housing (although it could be a bit uncomfortable inside my ears) is a very durable design and spells quality.
 

 
Cables. At that price point it is inexcusable in my opinion. Cable failure is pretty common within consumer usage. But the counter argument is that if one uses an expensive product, they'd do their utmost to ensure that it is kept properly. However, the manufacturer really should just follow the norm and not have to rely on extra consumer care on their own. If one buys a product, one would expect it to be tip top where the only extra care they take is that of paranoia, not because of a "bad" design. I say bad design rather liberally and just in reference to the cable design.
 
They really should have thought the better of it, in my respectful opinion.
 
The unit itself is a very good unit though, and I'm not surprised that people like it. Whether some don't like it is another issue altogether, but that is all down to sonic preferences i.e. subjectivity. My guess is that if one already likes the AKG sound, and something a little more neutral/reference based, the K3003 is the way to go as an upgrade. 
 
Apr 14, 2013 at 2:09 AM Post #885 of 4,058
Quote:
I wish AKG would really rethink the design of their IEM. The cables is atrocious at the housings themselves... That ultimately is my biggest issues with these IEMs. I'd be extremely pissed with the cables going out just out of warranty :frowning2:... Otherwise the metal housing (although it could be a bit uncomfortable inside my ears) is a very durable design and spells quality.

 
First the Sony EX1000 was "garbage" and now the K3003 cable at the housings is "atrocious". Oh well...
 

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