[angelom]

For those that missed it, go into the Heath app, select Hearing and click on audiogram and download the Mimi hearing test app. Once you run through that test, the audiogram option will pop up on your accessibility -> audio visual -> headphone accommodations page in addition to the balanced, vocal and brightness settings. You can compare them while listening and hear the difference. It wasn't earth-shatteringly different for me, but enough for my brain to say "yea, that's about right"

Thank you for your post. I installing the Mimi app and doing the hearing test. The results is my ears both having same average hearing. Then I trying this setting in the Accessibility app with the new audiogram and the sound is very, very close with "vocal" + "slight". Previously I saying that "balanced tone" + "slight" is better, but the treble is still problematic (peaky). With the audiogram setting or vocal + slight the sound is better, more correct. When I going back to factory sound the sound is drastically different (not very good really, uneven frequency and warm/dark sound).

This is good that Apple is offering this. However, this is basically eq'ing the APM. In that case people can eq'ing other headphones with a good eq app that is offering too left/right volume differences.

I tried XM4s and the muddying or veiling of sound was just bad, but yet they have received accolades upon accolades for their sound. They had pretty good graphs, but who cares?

No, the xm4 never having good frequency response graphs.

P.P.S. See my equalizer setting for a brighter, more balanced APM. I don't love messing with EQ, but it's fun to fiddle with.

My MacBook Pro eq settings in iTunes for the APM is little different from your settings.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Andrew from the Headphone Show did a more complete review of the APM. He only tested it with Apple devices to give it the most positive review.



Another reviewer I respect giving the APM pretty good marks for tuning, but very low marks for technical capabilities. He likes the bass response, but not the mids, nor the treble, nor the imaging. 2nd reviewer who compares the APM to $100-200 headphones in terms of sound quality. Does not recommend it unless you are fully into Apple ecosystem with everything like Apple TV. If you own only an iPhone, he does not recommend it vs the alternatives. He also thinks the noise cancellation has potential, but it's not yet there and needs work. First person I've heard say that they APM disconnects from devices and loses state which is worse than Sony and Bose which is an unforced error for a feature it should be the best at.

 

[tkddans]

First listening impressions of the AKG K361 are very strong. Very very different feel from the APM in tuning. Loving the balanced approach. Looking up a Harman comparison, it's clear they tuned these to almost perfectly match the Harman response.

Just a great impression and pleasingly low price to get to that Harman curve.

Switching back and forth with the APM, you can definitely hear what the APM's tuning does differently. You can hear what each one does better than the other. More bass and not as bright around the 2-4k for sure. But...that APM makes you feel like you are in a luxurious bath of sound compared to the K361 on first impression. Just feels different man.

More detailed comparison to come.

 

[angelom]

First listening impressions of the AKG K361 are very strong. Very very different feel from the APM in tuning. Loving the balanced approach. Looking up a Harman comparison, it's clear they tuned these to almost perfectly match the Harman response.

Just a great impression and pleasingly low price to get to that Harman curve.

Switching back and forth with the APM, you can definitely hear what the APM's tuning does differently. You can hear what each one does better than the other. More bass and not as bright around the 2-4k for sure. But...that APM makes you feel like you are in a luxurious bath of sound compared to the K361 on first impression. Just feels different man.

More detailed comparison to come.

Hello tkddans.

Is funny your receiving the k361 bt because 2 days ago I ordering this pair for Christmas present for someone. If isn't much problem for you, is possible you comparing the sound of k361 with APM with my iTunes settings or with the Accessibility "vocal + slight" if is more easy for you? Thank you in advance.

 

[yticolev]

I'm no doubt bringing the level of discourse down a bit here as I have nothing relevant to say about sound quality right now (other than good enough). I picked up my set of APMs Monday at the Apple Store, and immediately went to the gym from there (were fine for working out other than flat on the back sort of things like crunches). First impression is that they didn't play loud enough. I'm not that guy, but for my usual random playlist composed primarily of 4,000 of my favorite songs of the 1960's and 70's, I left the volume all the way up and it was just barely adequate or too low. In several hours of testing, only a recording of Beethoven's 5th played loud enough to turn down the volume a notch.

I'm using iTunes exclusively (256 AAC), perhaps this is partly an iTunes quirk? There is some sort of loudness adjustment per song, but haven't been able to make it work. Perhaps some automatic feature has removed the ability to change manually as when I looked at the file settings, some had already changed from 0 db settings.

An hour ago, I received a set of AKG K361BT in the mail, and these play significantly louder. On the very few tracks I really do like to play loud (a couple of Fleetwood Mac tracks), they were loud enough.

I've not seen any comments here on how headphones do on absolute volume. Any feedback? I'm even wondering if I have a bad set of APMs.

Only thing I can add at the moment is fit. The 361's have shallower earcups and my ears touch. I'm assuming that will be uncomfortable for long sessions. I apparently also have a pointy head, and the APMs steel supports rest directly on my head. Slightly annoying and I will have to modify the headrest if I keep them. Controls are way better on the APMs as a by the way.

 

[tkddans]

Hello tkddans.

Is funny your receiving the k361 bt because 2 days ago I ordering this pair for Christmas present for someone. If isn't much problem for you, is possible you comparing the sound of k361 with APM with my iTunes settings or with the Accessibility "vocal + slight" if is more easy for you? Thank you in advance.

I can include Accessibility > Balanced Slight commentary for sure Though, it may not be too much commentary on every track. I'm already leaning away from it in many many cases. I don't particularly like how it brings up the white noise on tracks. And somehow it takes away the lusciousness of the default tuning. I do like balanced for classical though.

For Mac OS, though I've fiddled with the EQ to make a brighter or more balanced setting, I keep reverting back to the default. Something special there.

 

[pnoble]

I'm new here...been a casual enjoyer of high quality cans (HD265, HD600) for years, but don't consider myself an audiophile. I've been ambidextrous as far as Android and Apple for years, but have recently migrated towards Apple stuff for various reasons (a whole other conversation). I recently purchased the APM and have been enjoying them for several days, breathing life back into my older ears. Pushing 60, my hearing isn't what it used to be.

A few posts in the last days I feel aren't getting enough attention IMO with all the goings on about opinions and preferences.

I can perform an objective test of my hearing through a set of headphones with an app on my phone and apply that correction to those headphones to compensate for my personal weaknesses! After 10 minutes, I have a custom set of cans for my hearing and they sound great! Even compensates for different hearing in L and R ears. If someone else listened to them, they may sounds like crap to them with my settings, but I just don't care. Before this, I played with balanced, vocal and brightness settings and those helped, but the custom audiogram setting brings my brain back closer to the balanced memories of my Sennheisers, but with better sub-bass

We have no idea what others hear when they listen, so reviewers fall back on objective response measurements and note their opinions. But are these even relevant in the APM world? Does it adjust dynamically according how it wants to translate input to output, adding a time element into the equation that really can't be captured on a flat graph? I tried XM4s and the muddying or veiling of sound was just bad, but yet they have received accolades upon accolades for their sound. They had pretty good graphs, but who cares?

For those that missed it, go into the Heath app, select Hearing and click on audiogram and download the Mimi hearing test app. Once you run through that test, the audiogram option will pop up on your accessibility -> audio visual -> headphone accommodations page in addition to the balanced, vocal and brightness settings. You can compare them while listening and hear the difference. It wasn't earth-shatteringly different for me, but enough for my brain to say "yea, that's about right"

Exactly, ricksastro, and with my 70 year old hearing, the difference is likely even more pronounced (my Mimi test result: 'L 79%, R 80%. Apple Health indicates an average -19/-18 dbHL) Of course this is an average, versus the more detailed four frequency plot they provide. I assume APM equalization is also in discrete bands. But there wouldn't seem any reason, computationally, to precisely contour the sound to perfectly compensate. I personally prefer the Balanced Tone (slight) for its greater bass emphasis.

I have to believe that uncompensated age-related hearing loss affects some of personal opinion expressed on this forum. Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere.

 

[angelom]

I can include Accessibility > Balanced Slight commentary for sure Though, it may not be too much commentary on every track. I'm already leaning away from it in many many cases. I don't particularly like how it brings up the white noise on tracks. And somehow it takes away the lusciousness of the default tuning. I do like balanced for classical though.

For Mac OS, though I've fiddled with the EQ to make a brighter or more balanced setting, I keep reverting back to the default. Something special there.

Thank you! I think if you listening more carefully, you will finding that "voice + slight" is more correct than "balance + slight". I too having the same problem with peaky treble with "balance" setting but not with "voice" setting. Isn't necessary commentary with every track because then you going crazy. For me is sufficient that you giving a general difference of the sound and frequencies. Sorry, but I insisting you must trying vocal + slight because is really more correct in all the frequency range.

 

[AeroSatan]

I’m listening to music right now on the P9’s and I find them to be several steps above the P7W’s (wired or wireless). I purchased the P7W’s for my girlfriend as a gift and a short while later I purchased the P9’s for myself and when I borrowed the P7W’s from my girlfriend to A/B them I felt bad at how much better the P9’s were compared to the P7W’s because I felt like I bought my girlfriend junk. It’s disappointing that the P9’s sold so poorly because I would have liked B+W to continue to iterate on them and push them further, at least it wasn’t meant to be.

Going back to the AirPods, one thing I’ve noticed about the audiophile community is that people here are highly susceptible to placebo effects and they follow a herd mentality. The bashing of the AirPods Max comes as no surprise to me. Apple isn’t a traditional audio or small boutique brand and because of that they never had a chance of being the community’s “flavor of the month.”

There is a point of diminishing returns in headphones and that extra 10-15% improvement in sound quality isn’t that important to the vast majority of people, especially when you start factoring in how much that last mile costs. The average person just isn’t interested in spending hours A/Bing different headphones to find those small nuances in sound signature and quality.

Besides the P9’s I also own a pair of Bose QC35 II’s and while the P9’s are obviously better, if the Bose’s were my only set of headphone I really wouldn’t be sad, I can enjoy music on either set. The AirPods Max are supposed to be a little better in sound quality than all of their other competitors so I imagine the vast majority of people will be satisfied with the sound quality, if not even impressed.

Apple is the biggest company in the world and collectively they have some of the world’s best engineers. I have yet to hear a laptop with better speakers than a MacBook and I imagine they had some of the best audio engineers working on these headphones and given their size, experience, and ability to scale, I’m sure they are able to outspend their competitors in R&D in ways that probably seems unfair.

Purely guessing, I would say that Apple is pushing the boundaries of what is possible in headphones.

Take a look at the build quality of the AirPods Max and compare them to other top of the line headphones. Even if you don’t care for the design of the AirPods Max you have to admire what Apple was able to produce at the price tag, besting headphone in build quality that cost 4x. I’m willing to bet that the same level of engineering that went into developing the build was also placed into developing the sound.

You’ve clearly never seen the build quality of Sony MDR Z7’s for example. Hey be had brand new for the same price, their built quality is impeccable and they’re also assembled in Japan. They’re not wireless or noise cancelling. But you brought up built quality, also it’s sound with its 70mm drivers dances around the AMP’s as well

 

[tkddans]

Thank you! I think if you listening more carefully, you will finding that "voice + slight" is more correct than "balance + slight". I too having the same problem with peaky treble with balance but not with voice. Isn't necessary commentary with every track because then you going crazy. For me is sufficient that you giving a general difference of the sound and frequencies. Sorry, but I insisting you must trying vocal + slight because is really more correct in all the frequency range.

Hah! No worries man. I too recall some noticing vocal being better perhaps in trying to balance the APM. Headphone Show made that distinction as well. I've dabbled with it and do prefer it over "Balanced" at times, but still generally keep going back to default settings with accommodations turned off. The more I listen to the headphones, the more I appreciate what the engineers were trying to go for.

 

[pnoble]

I'm surprised. I did the test and take some listening with APP.
With audiogram sound is clearly better for my ears. Wow.

Edit: Though calibration is for AP only, not APP. Is there a app which has calibration for APP also?

Edit 2:as always, if first impression is wow something is not right. APP sounds better without any correction settings and without ANC. Imo.

Re calibration, I used APP but going back to the app it indeed says: AP and......thank you, I recalibrated with the regular AP and my score increased significantly! I feel a whole lot better about my hearing!

I I haven't tried the other listed apps that integrate with Health to check for APP calibration. I still prefer Balanced Tone (slight) to my Audiogram EQ due to the slightly 'richer' bass.

 

[ricksastro]

Thank you for your post. I installing the Mimi app and doing the hearing test. The results is my ears both having same average hearing. Then I trying this setting in the Accessibility app with the new audiogram and the sound is very, very close with "vocal" + "slight". Previously I saying that "balanced tone" + "slight" is better, but the treble is still problematic (peaky). With the audiogram setting or vocal + slight the sound is better, more correct. When I going back to factory sound the sound is drastically different (not very good really, uneven frequency and warm/dark sound).

This is good that Apple is offering this. However, this is basically eq'ing the APM. In that case people can eq'ing other headphones with a good eq app that is offering too left/right volume differences.



No, the xm4 never having good frequency response graphs.



My MacBook Pro eq settings in iTunes for the APM is little different from your settings.

Yes you can EQ adjust to get to your liking, but the audiogram gives you an objective baseline based both on your hearing + headphone performance at those bands. Sometimes adjusting the EQ is like poking around in the dark based on the song you're listening to, and then you listen to a different style and it sounds horrid. Will do a subject A+B+C with my APM, HD265 and HD600 for my own person preferences.

I'd really like to return the APMs since they were a bit pricey, but if they get me to listen to and enjoy music more due to features and convenience then I have no issue spending it. My wife likes the fact she can't really hear the music (minimal leak) unlike the HD600 open backs, but doesn't like the fact she can be talking for a few minutes and I wouldn't have heard a word of it. May be worth the money right there

 

[angelom]

The more I listen to the headphones, the more I appreciate what the engineers were trying to go for.

The way I seeing this, and not only with the APM, is that a more warm/dark sound is preferable in designing some/many of this anc headphones because unfortunately many people listening at very loud volumes and a more balanced sound at more loud volumes is clearly more fatiguing for the ears. xm3 and xm4 are perfect examples of this. I'm sure the k361, like hd800 at loud volumes is hurting people's ears for more long periods of time.

 

[ricksastro]

Hah! No worries man. I too recall some noticing vocal being better perhaps in trying to balance the APM. Headphone Show made that distinction as well. I've dabbled with it and do prefer it over "Balanced" at times, but still generally keep going back to default settings with accommodations turned off. The more I listen to the headphones, the more I appreciate what the engineers were trying to go for.

Voice+slight sounds very similar to my audiogram. But my audiogram sounds "wider" than voice

 

[plakat]

I think he was referring to this video

He is basically talking on how Apple chip “decompress” audio file that was transmitted via Bluetooth by computational audio. So it’s kinda like computational photography where they make Machine Learning decide the best composure instead of the actual lens capability. That’s why even an AAC will sound very good and detailed. But yeah funny thing is nobody really talked about this. This is quite a game changer. If they improve this every year, Apple can be at the top of food chain just by tweaking the software, technically speaking.

Yes, obviously decompression happens in Apples H1 chip, which also handles the Bluetooth connection to my understanding. Potentially they could analyze the audio signal and do some postprocessing (Beyerdynamic does something like that on their MYI/MIMI-enabled wireless headphones). Examples of such postprocessing would be the plugins available in DAW software (Digital Audio Workbench) that can be used to remove noise, make signals sound extra crispy etc. So nothing new in the sense of "nobody else did that before". I still think if any magical processing would be done, they would have let us know. Which is not to say that the APM as a hardware Plattform does not have the capability to add such processing later on... a good example being the spatial audi feature added to the APP: the necessary hardware was obviously there, but software support for this feature was added later. I think something this is going to happen with the APM just as well... but I don't think there's currently any extraordinary postprocessing being done.

What of course is already present: adaptive EQ, which measures output within the cup and adapts. Fun experiment: lift one cup just a bit so that the seal breaks while playing music (best effect with rather bass heavy music). We don't exactly know what's behind that small window through the mesh... maybe other sensors are lurking, not only the one for detecting on-/off-head state. It looks like an optical sensor, so dreaming wildly... what if there were a LIDAR sensor? Measuring the 3D structure of your ear? Note: I just made this up, but I can imagine there are unused sensors already built into the APM. I think the gyroscope in the APP was not known until the spatial audio feature came along, was it?