AirPods Max
Dec 23, 2020 at 1:40 AM Post #1,351 of 5,629
That reminds me of a Joshua Valour video I was watching recently.

He was doing a comparison between the Grado SR-80e and the GS-2000e, and he came to the conclusion that the SR-80e is the better of the two.

Not merely a better value or better per dollar, but better, period. Better in absolute terms. He concluded that a $100 headphone sounds better than a $1400 headphone from the same company. And Joshua Valour isn’t exactly a novice. He knows his stuff. He’s incredibly knowledgeable and experienced in the headphone world.

My point is that getting back to my lengthy post from a few pages ago, the entire concept of “a $550 headphone” is meaningless. What does a $550 headphone sound like? What does a $1400 headphone sound like? How many $550 or even $1400 headphones actually sound better than a $200 560S or 6XX?

Not many.

The relationship between price and sound quality completely breaks down once you pass the $150-$200 mark. There are great sounding expensive headphones, there are mediocre sounding expensive headphones, and there are awful sounding expensive headphones.

The price-performance relationship becomes a dart board at a certain point. That’s why so much of what’s discussed on this board and in this community isn’t about actual audio fidelity, but about personal taste as well as the artistic and artisan nature of some of these non-mainstream brands.

That’s why this is a hobby and not a science. We headphone lovers have more in common with Star Wars geeks than with physicists. We’re engaging in hobby. It’s a passion. It’s about materials and designs and customization and socializing within the community - just as much as it’s about sound quality.

This is like Scotch tasting. You can buy a $3000 bottle and enjoy the story behind its creation, the aging the barrels, and the history of the distillery, but at the end of the day, a nice $100 bottle will taste just as good.

This is very well written.

By the way, I've been doing an experiment with friends/family this year giving them two snifters. Disclaimer: I'm not a scotch enthusiast. One is filled with Johnnie Walker Black and one with Blue Label and asking them which one they think is the better one. Exactly 50% so far have chosen the one that is 1/8th the price of the other.
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 2:29 AM Post #1,352 of 5,629
Today has been a good headphone day for me.

First I received new pads for my A900. It’s insane that Audio Technica only charged $3.50 for each earpad and a whole dollar for the ‘3D Wings’. And shipping was free. So I spent a whole ten bucks to get my 14 year old beloved A900 feeling like new again.

Then a short while later, my AirPods Max showed up at the door.

I’ve gotta say, I love the APM so far. I’ve only been listening for a couple hours, but my first impressions are that I like them a lot. The bass and sub-bass are excellent, the soundstage is pretty wide (albeit not as wide as the A900), and I’m hearing details and instrument separation that is far better than what I get from my A900. I think the A900 might still have the advantage in detail. For example, listening to a piano note, I can hear a little more texture with the A900 than with the APM.

The A900 has this smooth, laid back complexity that I just love. But the APM is more dynamic. They’re punchier, more interesting, and when there’s a mix with many different layers of instrumentation, I feel like I can hear each individual layer stand out more on the APM than I can with the A900s. So even though the A900 offers a bit more detail and texture, the APM feel like there’s ‘more going on’, if that makes sense. The A900 has a warmer sound but the APM has a more immersive sound.

It’s too early to declare the APM my overall winner, but it may very well be. And the A900 and APM are clearly the two best sounding headphones I own.

My current headphone rankings of what I own:

1. AirPods Max
2. Audio Technica A900
3. Audio Technica M50
4. PowerBeats Pro
5. AirPods Pro
6. Grado SR-60
7. Koss KSC-75
8. AirPods
9. Koss PortaPro
10. BeatsX
11. EarPods
12. My many pack-in headphones that came with iPods and CD players years ago

Of course, I’ve got a 6XX on order from Drop, so when that arrives, we’ll see if it can take the #1 spot.
 
Last edited:
Dec 23, 2020 at 2:30 AM Post #1,353 of 5,629
This is very well written.

By the way, I've been doing an experiment with friends/family this year giving them two snifters. Disclaimer: I'm not a scotch enthusiast. One is filled with Johnnie Walker Black and one with Blue Label and asking them which one they think is the better one. Exactly 50% so far have chosen the one that is 1/8th the price of the other.

This is also why Apple always spend time, effort, and money on build quality, it's something you can easily feel with your hand. You are right, most of the people can't tell the difference between the sound of APM vs Bose and Sony, but they can tell it feels expensive compare to other plastic cans.
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 2:42 AM Post #1,354 of 5,629
This is very well written.

By the way, I've been doing an experiment with friends/family this year giving them two snifters. Disclaimer: I'm not a scotch enthusiast. One is filled with Johnnie Walker Black and one with Blue Label and asking them which one they think is the better one. Exactly 50% so far have chosen the one that is 1/8th the price of the other.

Thanks.

And yeah, Johnnie Blue is nothing special. That’s actually a pretty common view in the scotch world. It’s very smooth but not complex at all. It’s boring. You can get a much better single malt for $50 from Glenlivet or Glenfiddich or Balvenie or countless others.

Regarding Johnnie, Black is a decent starter scotch. Unremarkable, but not bad either. It’s absolutely worth the extra money over Johnnie Red, which is just trash that‘s only good when consumed in a mixed drink.

The best spot in the Johnnie lineup is Johnnie Green, if you can find it. That’s the sweet spot of price/taste.

I’m trying to think of a headphone analogy. Johnnie Black is maybe an HD 555 or thereabouts. Not fantastic, but not bad. Snobs will attack it more than it deserves. I guess Johnnie Blue would be an HD 820.
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 3:19 AM Post #1,355 of 5,629
Of course, I’ve got a 6XX on order from Drop, so when that arrives, we’ll see if it can take the #1 spot.
The 6XX should handily take the top spot, if you’re judging solely based on sound quality. You’d have to ignore that you’re comparing 2 completely different beasts, one a open-back wired headphone, the other a closed-back wireless ANC can. They’re about as different as they could be...IMHO just leave the comparisons aside and enjoy the cans for the unique qualities that they have.
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 4:02 AM Post #1,356 of 5,629
I have read several earlier posts re contouring output via iOS Settings > Accessibility > Audio/Visual with the suggestion to set to Headphone Accommodations (On) > Balanced Tone (Slight) which is the default. It is a significant improvement for me, because I have slightly better than average 70 year old hearing (loss)! However, you can go further with the APM.

On the same screen 'Headphone Audio' > Custom Audio Setup. A pop-up screen appears > Continue. It takes you to the Apple Health App where you can download a (free) Audiogram App. I downloaded Mimi Hearing Test. I took the test (6 minutes) which was automatically imported into and graphed by the Apple Health App. (It recommends using earphones that have been calibrated to the app. APs and APPs have, the Max not yet. I used APPs.)

You now go back to Settings > Accessibility > Audio/Visual and select Audiogram. It will prompt you to select the exam you have just taken. It will then correct for your hearing. You can easily switch back and forth between Headphone Accommodation Off, Balanced Tone and Audiogram. I personally prefer the slightly more pronounced bass in Balanced tone, though Audiogram presumably corrects for the difference in high frequency sensitivity between my left and right ears.

Yes, manual equalization could achieve much the same were it available!
I'm surprised. I did the test and take some listening with APP.
With audiogram sound is clearly better for my ears. Wow.

Edit: Though calibration is for AP only, not APP. Is there a app which has calibration for APP also?

Edit 2:as always, if first impression is wow something is not right. :) APP sounds better without any correction settings and without ANC. Imo.
 
Last edited:
Dec 23, 2020 at 5:58 AM Post #1,357 of 5,629
It’s been funny for quite a few pages

And rather civilized even... and I was already used to see 7 new pages in the morning, today it was only 3. And not one post about how the HD650 declasses the APM. Personally I really dislike the HD650, both for comfort and sound, I'd take the APM over it any day. And I've decided over the last few days that I'm most definitely no audiophile... having fun with music is more important to me than technicalities. Thats not to say I don't appreciate a good headphone: I do. But out of two I choose the one that is giving me more fun, not the one that is more correct.

Hmm. Is it weird that I am finding myself too attached to my LCD2C and Schiit stack to sell it? I don’t usually get sentimental about tech but I don’t wanna sell it. And I don’t want to return my APM. And I don’t need 2 sets of over ear cans.

Ah, think about that again... you'll see that you *need* at least 2 sets :wink:

why not keep both setups?
I'm sure a majority of head-fiers have more than one setup.

Unfortunately "more than one" is a rather wide field...

You are the devil on my shoulder, aren’t you? 😈

We all are :wink:

I can fully understand your wish to avoid future decisions by normalizing on one set, which is the thing to pick up when there's music. I have far too many, and sometimes I do have that exact problem: loosing time by trying to choose. So I normally have 2-3 sets in rotation: one for music during work (wireless over-ears), one while reading (other source, wired) plus one for on-the-go (in-ears, either fully wireless or with a Bluetooth receiver). And the specific models change over time, those not in use get into storage to be explored again later. First world problems...

For audio conferences I use a set of 2. gen AirPods, which I prefer over the APP (those I have in my backpack as an emergency fallback). So that set doesn't count...
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 5:59 AM Post #1,358 of 5,629
Today has been a good headphone day for me.

First I received new pads for my A900. It’s insane that Audio Technica only charged $3.50 for each earpad and a whole dollar for the ‘3D Wings’. And shipping was free. So I spent a whole ten bucks to get my 14 year old beloved A900 feeling like new again.

Then a short while later, my AirPods Max showed up at the door.

I’ve gotta say, I love the APM so far. I’ve only been listening for a couple hours, but my first impressions are that I like them a lot. The bass and sub-bass are excellent, the soundstage is pretty wide (albeit not as wide as the A900), and I’m hearing details and instrument separation that is far better than what I get from my A900. I think the A900 might still have the advantage in detail. For example, listening to a piano note, I can hear a little more texture with the A900 than with the APM.

The A900 has this smooth, laid back complexity that I just love. But the APM is more dynamic. They’re punchier, more interesting, and when there’s a mix with many different layers of instrumentation, I feel like I can hear each individual layer stand out more on the APM than I can with the A900s. So even though the A900 offers a bit more detail and texture, the APM feel like there’s ‘more going on’, if that makes sense. The A900 has a warmer sound but the APM has a more immersive sound.

It’s too early to declare the APM my overall winner, but it may very well be. And the A900 and APM are clearly the two best sounding headphones I own.

My current headphone rankings of what I own:

1. AirPods Max
2. Audio Technica A900
3. Audio Technica M50
4. PowerBeats Pro
5. AirPods Pro
6. Grado SR-60
7. Koss KSC-75
8. AirPods
9. Koss PortaPro
10. BeatsX
11. EarPods
12. My many pack-in headphones that came with iPods and CD players years ago

Of course, I’ve got a 6XX on order from Drop, so when that arrives, we’ll see if it can take the #1 spot.

Regular Airpods over Koss PortaPro's?! wow, I've heard it all now, the regular AirPods don't even seal in your ear? I think a list like this really shows how different peoples preferences are.

One thing I find annoying reading through this thread is some of the arguments/justifications/excuses that have been made I rarely find in other dedicated headphone threads, since the advent of the APM it now feels like many people are saying that we can't judge headphones objectively anymore, now it's just about personal preference and sound signature/tuning, classic budget/mid/high-end/flagship categories have now came to an end, the APM exists outside the realm of traditional objective classification (?), I can't help feel that 'some' people on here with obvious biases are trying to move the goal posts in terms of the current process of reviewing and judging headphones, fitting their narrative that APM is possibility the best headphone in the world, with the H1 chips and DSP processing the APM can be any headphone it wants to be, it just comes down to tuning and preference now.

Pre APM world, for the most part, I think many headfiers accepted a 'general' classification of particular headphones, meaning kind of where about said headphone fitted on the ladder, or headphone wall of fame (rarr!), you would find courteous statements like, "I actually prefer headphone X than Y even though it's only a mid tier headphone because I prefer the mid range presentation, or bass emphasis etc, headphones like HD600 vs HD800 are a classic example, HD800 is arguably of the best hi-fi headphone in the world, in the true since of the meaning of hi-fi (hi-fidelity), but it's certainly not to everyone's taste, many prefer HD600/650, but we accept the HD800's position nonetheless, personally I love the HD800, I like a headphone that tests your ears to the point of cringing even, I see it similar to well done HDR on TV's that makes you cringe when a car headlight shines in your face, why do TV enthusiasts want that? because it mimics real life, I don't believe all music should should 'comfortable', you hear people say, "that 6k peak destroys that headphone", trying listening to a live band in a room lol, I understand preferences are important, you like what you like, but I still believe the continued search for objective classifications of headphones is very important.
 
Last edited:
Dec 23, 2020 at 7:11 AM Post #1,360 of 5,629
One thing I find annoying reading through this thread is some of the arguments/justifications/excuses that have been made I rarely find in other dedicated headphone threads, since the advent of the APM it now feels like many people are saying that we can't judge headphones objectively anymore, now it's just about personal preference
It's been always that way, imo.
We all hear things differently. There is no "one thruth"?
Objective measurements are only way judge headphones, if you want to judge for some reasons. But what are we judging in that case? What makes one headphone better than other?
Who defines which is better?

I buy my headphones for me only. Nothing/no one else than me can't define what's good for my preferences.
Listening is the only way. Measurements or someone elses listening test does not tell a thing of that will headphone be good for you?
 
Last edited:
Dec 23, 2020 at 7:29 AM Post #1,361 of 5,629
It's been always that way, imo.
We all hear things differently. There is no "one thruth"?
Objective measurements are only way judge headphones, if you want to judge for some reasons. But what are we judging in that case? What makes one headphone better than other?
Who defines which is better?

I buy my headphones for me only. Nothing/no one else than me can't define what's good for my preferences.
Listening is the only way. Measurements or someone elses listening test does not tell a thing of that will headphone be good for you?

Where have I said different? I have always maintained that personal preference is important, you would be a fool to think otherwise, I'm saying that personal preference can still exist along side objective classification and grading of a headphone, are you saying the HD800 isn't well-known as a flagship in terms of SQ and technical ability? that is pretty universally excepted, but many people are not a fan of it's sound, that doesn't takeaway it's classification though, if this thread was to be believed then all headphones are equal, it's like the APM has assured in a renaissance of headphone equality, suddenly all headphones are now equal, no budget/mid/high-end classifications exist anymore, it's just down to personal preference of a particular sound signature.
 
Last edited:
Dec 23, 2020 at 7:45 AM Post #1,362 of 5,629
One thing I find annoying reading through this thread is some of the arguments/justifications/excuses that have been made I rarely find in other dedicated headphone threads, since the advent of the APM it now feels like many people are saying that we can't judge headphones objectively anymore, now it's just about personal preference and sound signature/tuning, classic budget/mid/high-end/flagship categories have now came to an end, the APM exists outside the realm of traditional objective classification (?), I can't help feel that 'some' people on here with obvious biases are trying to move the goal posts in terms of the current process of reviewing and judging headphones, fitting their narrative that APM is possibility the best headphone in the world, with the H1 chips and DSP processing the APM can be any headphone it wants to be, it just comes down to tuning and preference now.

Pre APM world, for the most part, I think many headfiers accepted a 'general' classification of particular headphones, meaning kind of wear about said headphone fitted on the ladder, or headphone wall of fame (rarr!), you would find courteous statements like, "I actually prefer headphone X than Y even though it's only a mid tier headphone because I prefer the mid range presentation, or bass emphasis etc, headphones like HD600 vs HD800 are a classic example, HD800 is arguably of the best hi-fi headphone in the world, in the true since of the meaning of hi-fi (hi-fidelity), but it's certainly not to everyone's taste, many prefer HD600/650, but we accept the HD800's position nonetheless, personally I love the HD800, I like a headphone that tests your ears to the point of cringing even, I see it similar to well done HDR on TV's that make cringe when a car headlight shine in your face, why do TV enthusiasts want that? because it mimics real life, I don't believe all music should should 'comfortable', you hear people say, "that 6k peak destroys that headphone", trying listening to a live band in a room lol, I understand preferences are important, you like what you like, but I still believe the continued search for objective classifications of headphones is very important.

Whilst I fully respect your post and your opinion I would beg to differ from what you have said.

I think that headphones etc will always be about personal opinion and preference over what a reviewer or technical websites see as objective classifications. Objective ratings are still based on someone’s interpretation of a graph or a driver used in a product or at the price point or by the hype surrounding the maker.

Now with the APM I’m shocked at myself how much I like them, I never for one minute thought I’d own or pay this much for an Apple headphone. The thing is I have and like I said in an earlier post, they don’t match my Grado Hemp or Senn HD660s for sound however they do better them on build and convenience, and if I’m honest they sound better than some previous wired headphones I’ve owned.

Again though each to their own!
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 7:46 AM Post #1,363 of 5,629
Got mine yesterday and loving them so far. I had a question.
There was a video posted last week about how AirPod Max's stream the songs in to the headphones so bluetooth compression is not an issue. It was the "Gamechanger" video.
That really intrigued me. The problem is, I haven't heard another reviewer or article mention that.
Has that been confirmed?
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 8:06 AM Post #1,364 of 5,629
One thing I find annoying reading through this thread is some of the arguments/justifications/excuses that have been made I rarely find in other dedicated headphone threads, since the advent of the APM it now feels like many people are saying that we can't judge headphones objectively anymore, now it's just about personal preference and sound signature/tuning, classic budget/mid/high-end/flagship categories have now came to an end, the APM exists outside the realm of traditional objective classification (?), I can't help feel that 'some' people on here with obvious biases are trying to move the goal posts in terms of the current process of reviewing and judging headphones, fitting their narrative that APM is possibility the best headphone in the world, with the H1 chips and DSP processing the APM can be any headphone it wants to be, it just comes down to tuning and preference now.

Pre APM world, for the most part, I think many headfiers accepted a 'general' classification of particular headphones, meaning kind of where about said headphone fitted on the ladder, or headphone wall of fame (rarr!), you would find courteous statements like, "I actually prefer headphone X than Y even though it's only a mid tier headphone because I prefer the mid range presentation, or bass emphasis etc, headphones like HD600 vs HD800 are a classic example, HD800 is arguably of the best hi-fi headphone in the world, in the true since of the meaning of hi-fi (hi-fidelity), but it's certainly not to everyone's taste, many prefer HD600/650, but we accept the HD800's position nonetheless, personally I love the HD800, I like a headphone that tests your ears to the point of cringing even, I see it similar to well done HDR on TV's that make cringe when a car headlight shine in your face, why do TV enthusiasts want that? because it mimics real life, I don't believe all music should should 'comfortable', you hear people say, "that 6k peak destroys that headphone", trying listening to a live band in a room lol, I understand preferences are important, you like what you like, but I still believe the continued search for objective classifications of headphones is very important.

While I see the advantages of measurability in the classic sense of science (you can only discuss about measurements, not about feelings), I tend to look at that from a different standpoint. I've recently read an interesting book named 'Galileos Error', which essentially states, that with reducing science to quantitative measurements while totally ignoring qualitative statements, science has introduced an inherent problem: what we can directly perceive is only qualitative, nothing else.

So while I see a very basic (in the sense of deep down) problem with pure qualitative evaluations, there are additional problems with that approach: what exactly are those quantitative measurements we could reliably use for classification? We know that we can't measure how something sounds, only facets of that are represented by FR, THD, waterfall and impulse response plots and whatnot. They give hints at potential problems, though none (not even all of them together) completely describe how something actually sounds.

Next thing: sound quality (in the sense of personal reception and feeling about) is very personal and influenced not only by physiognomy but also expectations, previous exposure and 100 other things we might not even know about.

So I think we simply lack any usable quantitative measurements that give a picture of sound. But it gets worse: headphones are increasingly complex products, that touch many more facets of life than before (audio conferences becoming commonplace, mobile audio, streaming services, you get my point). Not only that we also lack good quantitative evaluations for those new aspects, there is no globally accepted weighting between those.

I'm far from giving up on the scientific side of things, to the contrary: I think science helps us understand the world around us and it is the best thing we have to do so. Still we need to evolve not only measurements, but science itself to get a more complete picture, to be able to talk about aspects of reality (or what looks like one) that are currently out of reach. We have to strive to evolve ever better measurements to get to the core of how things work.

But on the personal front I think we have to accept that there's no one size fits all: if I'm after A headphone for work, an open model with wires just won't cut it. That weighting of different aspects cannot be normalized. But that does not have to be a bad thing, it just means that no one is "right" about this -- neither is anyone "wrong".

Got mine yesterday and loving them so far. I had a question.
There was a video posted last week about how AirPod Max's stream the songs in to the headphones so bluetooth compression is not an issue. It was the "Gamechanger" video.
That really intrigued me. The problem is, I haven't heard another reviewer or article mention that.
Has that been confirmed?

Do you have any more details on that claim? Because I don't think there's anything special about the APM in that regard. Sometimes the statement that AAC encoded songs are better for AAC Bluetooth connections pops up, but as far as I've been able to clear this up this is simply not correct: the iOS sound APIs always accept WAV only, i.e. decompressed audio, and this is decompressed for transfer via Bluetooth (incidentally using AAC again in case of iOS -> APM).

furthermore I'm sure Apple would have mentioned their new revolutionary way to stream audio to their new headphone, were there any advances in technology (they did talk about that when Airplay 2 was introduced with lower latency etc.).
 
Dec 23, 2020 at 8:19 AM Post #1,365 of 5,629
While I see the advantages of measurability in the classic sense of science (you can only discuss about measurements, not about feelings), I tend to look at that from a different standpoint. I've recently read an interesting book named 'Galileos Error', which essentially states, that with reducing science to quantitative measurements while totally ignoring qualitative statements, science has introduced an inherent problem: what we can directly perceive is only qualitative, nothing else.

So while I see a very basic (in the sense of deep down) problem with pure qualitative evaluations, there are additional problems with that approach: what exactly are those quantitative measurements we could reliably use for classification? We know that we can't measure how something sounds, only facets of that are represented by FR, THD, waterfall and impulse response plots and whatnot. They give hints at potential problems, though none (not even all of them together) completely describe how something actually sounds.

Next thing: sound quality (in the sense of personal reception and feeling about) is very personal and influenced not only by physiognomy but also expectations, previous exposure and 100 other things we might not even know about.

So I think we simply lack any usable quantitative measurements that give a picture of sound. But it gets worse: headphones are increasingly complex products, that touch many more facets of life than before (audio conferences becoming commonplace, mobile audio, streaming services, you get my point). Not only that we also lack good quantitative evaluations for those new aspects, there is no globally accepted weighting between those.

I'm far from giving up on the scientific side of things, to the contrary: I think science helps us understand the world around us and it is the best thing we have to do so. Still we need to evolve not only measurements, but science itself to get a more complete picture, to be able to talk about aspects of reality (or what looks like one) that are currently out of reach. We have to strive to evolve ever better measurements to get to the core of how things work.

But on the personal front I think we have to accept that there's no one size fits all: if I'm after A headphone for work, an open model with wires just won't cut it. That weighting of different aspects cannot be normalized. But that does not have to be a bad thing, it just means that no one is "right" about this -- neither is anyone "wrong".

To put it quite simply, can I pick up a $10 pair of ear buds and arguably say that these ear buds best any headphone out there because I like the sound? I personally believe that people have the right to say "objectively speaking a pair of shure SE846's for example are categorically better, they are flat out better, but you believe a genuine distinction and classification between the $10 earbuds and the shure SE846's can't be drawn? Like I alluded to previously, a budget/mid/high-end/flagship generalised grouping or classification of headphones cannot exist due to differing personal preferences?
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top