[SparkOnShore]

How well a headphone will take to computational audio changes is likely going to be a factor of the driver itself, its waterfall plot, distortion metrics, etc. It's likely more of a factor of how well the driver itself will take to an EQ; some do very well while others aren't great at it. Some can be pushed in the bass but not the treble while others are easier to push outside the bass, etc.

The driver size, count, or even type isn't going to completely dictate what it can and cannot do. I've had IEMs that have been able to have rich full bass before (Phonak PFE232, Weston W4, HiFiMan RE-600, HiFiMan RE-1000). However, if you're looking for something that matches the APM exactly, you're likely to have a little trouble due to how low the bass slope begins. Some examples in the IEM world that might have a good starting point to attempt this might be something like the Etymotic ER2XR or Moondrop Blessing 2 Dusk (though they have a very DF midrange and treble). I haven't heard them, unfortunately, however they have the right shaping to their bass, but I can't be certain of the time characteristics (waterfall/decay) in these regions.

Just wondering, is it really like that, or even with such iems, you may just be able to “hear” a full bass, but not “feel” the actual nature of it, as you may be able to with the bigger over ears’ drivers?

 

[SparkOnShore]

This would definitely be the best starting point to attempt to get this going. I personally haven't tried it myself though.

The APM and APP are tuned very differently which caught me off guard. If I remember correctly, the APP is tuned within like 2-3 dB of DF neutral for like 90% of the frequency spectrum. The APM is not quite going after that. I can't deny that the APM is a technically better sounding headphone, despite being less neutral (to my ears), but that DF neutral is closer to my preference for sound, so I am still able to enjoy my APP when I want to.

Though in the in-ear space, there are lots of better options too. For TWS, with adapters like the the TRN BT20S Pro, Fiio UTWS 3, and Shure's TWS adapters, you can turn just about any detachable-cable IEM into a TWS and with the IEM's very good passive isolation in general ANC is less of a necessity (though transparency is a different story).

The problem with these adapters is that they cannot implement a high quality AAC transmission, at least not the way Apple is able to do. Also they may present hiccups with idevices which are not the case with AirPods line of headphones.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I had a handful of albums from iTunes that I downloaded, never used iTunes match though (until Apple Music). Moved from Spotify since the app kept deleting my 20GB offline music storage forcing me to redownload everything. After the 3rd or 4th time they did this, I figured I needed to jump ship. Apple still thinks I'm a student so I get it for 5 bucks a month

If you're using the default Music app, you can use the bass boost EQ (Settings > Music > EQ). This only applies to the Music app though. Spotify has it's own EQ (I forget if it's 5-band or 10-band). There are lots of EQ apps that exist on iOS, they need to hook into either the Music APIs (Apple Music streaming not supported due to DRM) or whatever source you are using for your music. Some of these apps allow you to sync music over through USB or FTP as well to get into. There is no system wide EQ unless you jailbreak your iPhone and find the appropriate jailbreak tweaks to do it (some of which are paid). EQing is a lot more tedious and a lot less friendly on iOS which is unfortunate.

The Clairvoyance have a very clean FR curve. The bass response of that might rival the APM to be honest (even in tonality).

I never used Spotify. I felt from the start that audio quality was better on Apple Music. I know many people disagree with that and possibly i was biased, but that was my opinion from the beginning of it all.

 

[SparkOnShore]

A side note for the APM, is that it is my first ever wireless headphone that i can actually use to play midi instruments with near zero delay on Ableton or Logic, which i use for music production. This has been my dream, to be able to play music wirelessly / without delay, and the APM, even though not perfect as wired, it is still really usable!

 

[tinyman392]

Just wondering, is it really like that, or even with such iems, you may just be able to “hear” a full bass, but not “feel” the actual nature of it, as you may be able to with the bigger over ears’ drivers?

In terms of feeling bass, audibly it's typically the same for me. In terms of feel, the only spot that will feel it on a full size is your ears. On bass that I can feel vibrate on my ears I feel it on the tip of my ear. In an IEM, it can sometimes feel like the housing is vibrating a little.

The problem with these adapters is that they cannot implement a high quality AAC transmission, at least not the way Apple is able to do. Also they may present hiccups with idevices which are not the case with AirPods line of headphones.

Apple's implementation of AAC is very good, though I haven't had too much issue with other headphones that decode AAC. I feel like it would likely be easier to get a decoding algorithm right than it would an encoding one. But I could be wrong.

I never used Spotify. I felt from the start that audio quality was better on Apple Music. I know many people disagree with that and possibly i was biased, but that was my opinion from the beginning of it all.

I didn't notice much difference in overall quality when switching. To a lot of ears 320 MP3 and 256 AAC are transparent to each other; some feel that those are transparent enough that they couldn't AB between those and lossless.

A side note for the APM, is that it is my first ever wireless headphone that i can actually use to play midi instruments with near zero delay on Ableton or Logic, which i use for music production. This has been my dream, to be able to play music wirelessly / without delay, and the APM, even though not perfect as wired, it is still really usable!

Are you using a MacBook by any chance? With wireless headphones the OS and headphone kind of need to work together to deal with latency and lag. Apple and their headphones do well with each other, but I've read that the lag is worse if you're using Android of Windows.

 

[SparkOnShore]

In terms of feeling bass, audibly it's typically the same for me. In terms of feel, the only spot that will feel it on a full size is your ears. On bass that I can feel vibrate on my ears I feel it on the tip of my ear. In an IEM, it can sometimes feel like the housing is vibrating a little.

Apple's implementation of AAC is very good, though I haven't had too much issue with other headphones that decode AAC. I feel like it would likely be easier to get a decoding algorithm right than it would an encoding one. But I could be wrong.

I didn't notice much difference in overall quality when switching. To a lot of ears 320 MP3 and 256 AAC are transparent to each other; some feel that those are transparent enough that they couldn't AB between those and lossless.

Are you using a MacBook by any chance? With wireless headphones the OS and headphone kind of need to work together to deal with latency and lag. Apple and their headphones do well with each other, but I've read that the lag is worse if you're using Android of Windows.

I use an older MacBook Pro for Logic, but anymore i prefer working on iPad with apps like Drambo. This is where i found near zero latency, with iPad Air 4th gen, Drambo music production app, AirPods Max and usb c outboard gear like midi keyboard etc. I also used the APM with a bandmate’s M1 MacBook Air with Ableton and again there was near zero latency on a midi keyboard, but i think the iPad is better, practically indistinguishable from wired!

 

[SparkOnShore]

In terms of feeling bass, audibly it's typically the same for me. In terms of feel, the only spot that will feel it on a full size is your ears. On bass that I can feel vibrate on my ears I feel it on the tip of my ear. In an IEM, it can sometimes feel like the housing is vibrating a little.

Apple's implementation of AAC is very good, though I haven't had too much issue with other headphones that decode AAC. I feel like it would likely be easier to get a decoding algorithm right than it would an encoding one. But I could be wrong.

I didn't notice much difference in overall quality when switching. To a lot of ears 320 MP3 and 256 AAC are transparent to each other; some feel that those are transparent enough that they couldn't AB between those and lossless.

Are you using a MacBook by any chance? With wireless headphones the OS and headphone kind of need to work together to deal with latency and lag. Apple and their headphones do well with each other, but I've read that the lag is worse if you're using Android of Windows.

So, generally you do not feel that you “lose” something in audio precision when using iems vs full size, is that right? I mean when comparing high end iems (let’s say the Shure SE846 just as an example), with some similar high quality full size, do you always find favors on both worlds so to end up being equal, or you would always prefer the full size for audio quality, even by a small margin?

 

[tinyman392]

I use an older MacBook Pro for Logic, but anymore i prefer working on iPad with apps like Drambo. This is where i found near zero latency, with iPad Air 4th gen, Drambo music production app, AirPods Max and usb c outboard gear like midi keyboard etc. I also used the APM with a bandmate’s M1 MacBook Air with Ableton and again there was near zero latency on a midi keyboard, but i think the iPad is better, practically indistinguishable from wired!

That explains the unnoticeable latency, the OS is likely doing the majority of the heavy lifting to get all of that right.

So, generally you do not feel that you “lose” something in audio precision when using iems vs full size, is that right? I mean when comparing high end iems (let’s say the Shure SE846 just as an example), with some similar high quality full size, do you always find favors on both worlds so to end up being equal, or you would always prefer the full size for audio quality, even by a small margin?

I actually haven't heard the Shure headphones. But it really depends on the tuning of the driver. A full-sized with neutral tuning will sound thin like an IEM with neutral tuning. I wouldn't really say one is better than the other; though I might argue it could be difficult to make one better than the other. My best in-ear right now is the Audeze Euclid which rivals my Ananda BT very well in terms of technicalities despite their tonal differences. Though the Ananda have a bigger bass presence (due to tuning). On the other hand, I can EQ my AAW Nightingale to have just as good of bass, if not better, than the Ananda BT; the Nightingale is one of the headphones I can't listen to without an EQ.

 

[SparkOnShore]

That explains the unnoticeable latency, the OS is likely doing the majority of the heavy lifting to get all of that right.

I actually haven't heard the Shure headphones. But it really depends on the tuning of the driver. A full-sized with neutral tuning will sound thin like an IEM with neutral tuning. I wouldn't really say one is better than the other; though I might argue it could be difficult to make one better than the other. My best in-ear right now is the Audeze Euclid which rivals my Ananda BT very well in terms of technicalities despite their tonal differences. Though the Ananda have a bigger bass presence (due to tuning). On the other hand, I can EQ my AAW Nightingale to have just as good of bass, if not better, than the Ananda BT; the Nightingale is one of the headphones I can't listen to without an EQ.

I see, thanks. You made me want to try those Euclid though!...

My God it’s 1300$! And i was thinking APM is very expensive!

 

[tinyman392]

I see, thanks. You made me want to try those Euclid though!...

My God it’s 1300$! And i was thinking APM is very expensive!

The Euclid is very expensive jack of all trades, but the fact that it's on the level of the Ananda BT kind of says something. I bought then with the idea that if I didn't like them I'd simply return them because Audeze has that sort of guarantee... I won't be returning them, paired with the Fiio UTWS 3, they make a very good TWS portable (albeit the case is large). Judging by your preferences though, you likely wouldn't like their stock tuning which is rather thin and bright.

That said, I'm not sure if you own or have owned any planar, but if you don't, and you like bass, they do very well in that department. Something like the Drop Panda may actually be right up your alley, though they are darker than the APM.

 

[tkddans]

I see, thanks. You made me want to try those Euclid though!...

My God it’s 1300$! And i was thinking APM is very expensive!

No, somehow in this stupid subjective world, the APM are TOO expensive at $550.

It doesn’t matter if you can’t find the APM sound anywhere else and you’re willing to pay that much. Because it doesn’t have the qualities of some other $300 headphone, it means the APM’s unique qualities are overpriced.

There are headphones that cost $1000+ that some people love and some people hate? Well...uhh...the APM are still overpriced because I said so!

EDIT: I don’t even know if this post makes sense in the conversation. I saw a statement about high prices in this hobby and it triggered me to rant about how those people who feel APM are overpriced are the people who don’t even like the APM much. If someone loves something and can’t find it cheaper, then I’m sorry the critics don’t hear it - but that makes it worth it for the interested crowd!

 

[SparkOnShore]

In terms of feeling bass, audibly it's typically the same for me. In terms of feel, the only spot that will feel it on a full size is your ears. On bass that I can feel vibrate on my ears I feel it on the tip of my ear. In an IEM, it can sometimes feel like the housing is vibrating a little.

Apple's implementation of AAC is very good, though I haven't had too much issue with other headphones that decode AAC. I feel like it would likely be easier to get a decoding algorithm right than it would an encoding one. But I could be wrong.

I didn't notice much difference in overall quality when switching. To a lot of ears 320 MP3 and 256 AAC are transparent to each other; some feel that those are transparent enough that they couldn't AB between those and lossless.

Are you using a MacBook by any chance? With wireless headphones the OS and headphone kind of need to work together to deal with latency and lag. Apple and their headphones do well with each other, but I've read that the lag is worse if you're using Android of Windows.

I think that the outer part of ear has a profound contribution with full size, that iems of course cannot have. Also a part of the scalp one way or another, though i am not sure...

 

[SparkOnShore]

That explains the unnoticeable latency, the OS is likely doing the majority of the heavy lifting to get all of that right.

I actually haven't heard the Shure headphones. But it really depends on the tuning of the driver. A full-sized with neutral tuning will sound thin like an IEM with neutral tuning. I wouldn't really say one is better than the other; though I might argue it could be difficult to make one better than the other. My best in-ear right now is the Audeze Euclid which rivals my Ananda BT very well in terms of technicalities despite their tonal differences. Though the Ananda have a bigger bass presence (due to tuning). On the other hand, I can EQ my AAW Nightingale to have just as good of bass, if not better, than the Ananda BT; the Nightingale is one of the headphones I can't listen to without an EQ.

For sure, but only with the APM i found zero latency on midi notes playing. No other wireless headphone. I have tried the Senn momentum 3, Bose 700 etc and they are all unusable for music production.

 

[SparkOnShore]

The Euclid is very expensive jack of all trades, but the fact that it's on the level of the Ananda BT kind of says something. I bought then with the idea that if I didn't like them I'd simply return them because Audeze has that sort of guarantee... I won't be returning them, paired with the Fiio UTWS 3, they make a very good TWS portable (albeit the case is large). Judging by your preferences though, you likely wouldn't like their stock tuning which is rather thin and bright.

That said, I'm not sure if you own or have owned any planar, but if you don't, and you like bass, they do very well in that department. Something like the Drop Panda may actually be right up your alley, though they are darker than the APM.

I actually started reading this thread in order to find out your views on Panda vs APM, which went really deep at that time, many pages back! I finally concluded that the APM would satisfy my needs in a more complete way, even though i could prefer the kind of warmer Panda’s sound. Still i have not even heard the Panda, which i plan to do at some point.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[SparkOnShore]

No, somehow in this stupid subjective world, the APM are TOO expensive at $550.

It doesn’t matter if you can’t find the APM sound anywhere else and you’re willing to pay that much. Because it doesn’t have the qualities of some other $300 headphone, it means the APM’s unique qualities are overpriced.

There are headphones that cost $1000+ that some people love and some people hate? Well...uhh...the APM are still overpriced because I said so!

EDIT: I don’t even know if this post makes sense in the conversation. I saw a statement about high prices in this hobby and it triggered me to rant about how those people who feel APM are overpriced are the people who don’t even like the APM much. If someone loves something and can’t find it cheaper, then I’m sorry the critics don’t hear it - but that makes it worth it for the interested crowd!

I do not find the APM overpriced anymore, after owning them. I used to think so but i was wrong. They are indeed unique. You are right about that.

Edit: i was also complaining for their heaviness, before trying them . But they are actually the most comfortable headphone i have ever used, and i have tried many. How they made a so heavy headphone to be so comfortable on my head and ears and actually forget having it on my head, is really beyond me!! I never expected to say these words, but here i am...