[tinyman392]

Tinyman392 i need to ask you something because i really appreciate your deep knowledge in audio; having had the APM for some time now, I couldn’t help comparing them to my APP and even though they both come from the same sound approach school, there is no way i could get on the APP the same depth, sound richness and details of the APM. APP sound actually like a similar and serious copy of the original music’s presentation, but still a copy, nothing like the original. So, does driver’s size still play a so important role in the sound outcome? I mean, even with the computational audio as part of the equation, which supposedly contributes in rectifying some factors, is it still impossible to get the sound fullness of the over ears APM, on the smaller factored APP? Is it still the case that APP style earbuds, are all about convenience and nothing more really? Thanks tinyman392!

How well a headphone will take to computational audio changes is likely going to be a factor of the driver itself, its waterfall plot, distortion metrics, etc. It's likely more of a factor of how well the driver itself will take to an EQ; some do very well while others aren't great at it. Some can be pushed in the bass but not the treble while others are easier to push outside the bass, etc.

The driver size, count, or even type isn't going to completely dictate what it can and cannot do. I've had IEMs that have been able to have rich full bass before (Phonak PFE232, Weston W4, HiFiMan RE-600, HiFiMan RE-1000). However, if you're looking for something that matches the APM exactly, you're likely to have a little trouble due to how low the bass slope begins. Some examples in the IEM world that might have a good starting point to attempt this might be something like the Etymotic ER2XR or Moondrop Blessing 2 Dusk (though they have a very DF midrange and treble). I haven't heard them, unfortunately, however they have the right shaping to their bass, but I can't be certain of the time characteristics (waterfall/decay) in these regions.

 

[MayaTlab]

there is no way i could get on the APP the same depth, sound richness and details of the APM.

Have you tried to EQ them with a parametric EQ using available measurements as hints as to which direction to follow ?

 

[SparkOnShore]

How well a headphone will take to computational audio changes is likely going to be a factor of the driver itself, its waterfall plot, distortion metrics, etc. It's likely more of a factor of how well the driver itself will take to an EQ; some do very well while others aren't great at it. Some can be pushed in the bass but not the treble while others are easier to push outside the bass, etc.

The driver size, count, or even type isn't going to completely dictate what it can and cannot do. I've had IEMs that have been able to have rich full bass before (Phonak PFE232, Weston W4, HiFiMan RE-600, HiFiMan RE-1000). However, if you're looking for something that matches the APM exactly, you're likely to have a little trouble due to how low the bass slope begins. Some examples in the IEM world that might have a good starting point to attempt this might be something like the Etymotic ER2XR or Moondrop Blessing 2 Dusk (though they have a very DF midrange and treble). I haven't heard them, unfortunately, however they have the right shaping to their bass, but I can't be certain of the time characteristics (waterfall/decay) in these regions.

Thanks for your suggestions and info. Do you also hear these differences specifically between the APM and the APP, or is it just my impression? I mean i used to like a lot the sound of the APP and now after i bought the APM, i cannot enjoy the APP all that much. It’s a pity because they are so convenient...I didn’t feel like that with other over ear headphones i have had, but especially the APM made me forget the APP...

 

[tinyman392]

Have you tried to EQ them with a parametric EQ using available measurements as hints as to which direction to follow ?

This would definitely be the best starting point to attempt to get this going. I personally haven't tried it myself though.

Thanks for your suggestions and info. Do you also hear these differences specifically between the APM and the APP, or is it just my impression? I mean i used to like a lot the sound of the APP and now after i bought the APM, i cannot enjoy the APP all that much. It’s a pity because they are so convenient...I didn’t feel like that with other over ear headphones i have had, but especially the APM made me forget the APP...

The APM and APP are tuned very differently which caught me off guard. If I remember correctly, the APP is tuned within like 2-3 dB of DF neutral for like 90% of the frequency spectrum. The APM is not quite going after that. I can't deny that the APM is a technically better sounding headphone, despite being less neutral (to my ears), but that DF neutral is closer to my preference for sound, so I am still able to enjoy my APP when I want to.

Though in the in-ear space, there are lots of better options too. For TWS, with adapters like the the TRN BT20S Pro, Fiio UTWS 3, and Shure's TWS adapters, you can turn just about any detachable-cable IEM into a TWS and with the IEM's very good passive isolation in general ANC is less of a necessity (though transparency is a different story).

 

[SparkOnShore]

Have you tried to EQ them with a parametric EQ using available measurements as hints as to which direction to follow ?

No, truth is I have not, because i was always feeling negative on eqing headphones. I have been reading all of you, on many forums, regarding eq, but always inside my mind i was stuck on wanting to reproduce as neutral as possible, the closest possible to the manufacturer’s idea of neutral. Most probably i am wrong, but still...

 

[tinyman392]

No, truth is I have not, because i was always feeling negative on eqing headphones. I have been reading all of you, on many forums, regarding eq, but always inside my mind i was stuck on wanting to reproduce as neutral as possible, the closest possible to the manufacturer’s idea of neutral. Most probably i am wrong, but still...

With what Apple's doing with the APM and APP, you could think about it as a real time corrective EQ for your head. There isn't anything inherently wrong with EQing, I tend to shy away from doing it if I don't have to and when comparing headphones. It's also not as readily available for me unfortunately either since I listen to/stream Apple Music, so the EQing apps won't work with it due to DRM.

I am more like you though, unless I absolutely have to, I'll avoid EQing a headphone. But understand there are a few manufacturers that utilize this as a way to fix their headphones. Apple's computational audio utilizes this for sure. In the past Audeze has taken advantage of DSP and EQ for the iSine series of headphones which apparently sound not so great until they are EQ'd either manually or through the Cipher cable. Audeze has kind of ditched this effort though as a lot of Head-Fiers don't really like EQing that much; it sort of becomes a hassle either way.

 

[MayaTlab]

No, truth is I have not, because i was always feeling negative on eqing headphones. I have been reading all of you, on many forums, regarding eq, but always inside my mind i was stuck on wanting to reproduce as neutral as possible, the closest possible to the manufacturer’s idea of neutral. Most probably i am wrong, but still...

Well don't hesitate. For me it's definitely the thing that's given me the biggest return in headphones-dom other than starting from an EQ-able pair of headphones (for me EQ-able means that I already quite enjoy the trebles as I find it difficult to EQ it, there are no significant narrow dips or peaks across the FR, and the default tuning isn't completely out of whack). Personally I find the APP eminently EQ-able, but that's just me.

Un-EQed passive headphones will always struggle anyway to nail a specific FR curve, even more so the one that your anatomy or your own preferences mandate.

I usually start from measurements and occasionally from predetermined profiles from Oratory1990 or AutoEQ and then customise to my taste from there.

Unfortunately no BT headphones can save parametric EQs on the device (save for the Drop Panda if they finally release that feature), and I find most GEQ mostly useless. On a Mac you can apply system wide PEQ (albeit in a way that's a PITA to manage) but not on iPhone.

 

[tinyman392]

Well don't hesitate. For me it's definitely the thing that's given me the biggest return in headphones-dom other than starting from an EQ-able pair of headphones (for me EQ-able means that I already quite enjoy the trebles as I find it difficult to EQ it, there are no significant narrow dips or peaks across the FR, and the default tuning isn't completely out of whack). Personally I find the APP eminently EQ-able, but that's just me.

Un-EQed passive headphones will always struggle anyway to nail a specific FR curve, even more so the one that your anatomy or your own preferences mandate.

I usually start from measurements and occasionally from predetermined profiles from Oratory1990 or AutoEQ and then customise to my taste from there.

Unfortunately no BT headphones can save parametric EQs on the device (save for the Drop Panda if they finally release that feature), and I find most GEQ mostly useless. On a Mac you can apply system wide PEQ (albeit in a way that's a PITA to manage) but not on iPhone.

BT headphones with apps are becoming more popular. None really have parametric EQs unfortunately and are strictly stuck to specific bands. I think my UE Fits did allow a more parametric style of EQ though which is nice, but again, you can only do 5 adjustments on those. My Fiio neckband has a 10-band EQ which is actually very nice and was able to EQ my AAW Nightingale from the grave. I'd probably say that most TWS IEMs nowadays have EQ support, though most are only 5-band with some customizable and some not.

 

[MayaTlab]

BT headphones with apps are becoming more popular. None really have parametric EQs unfortunately and are strictly stuck to specific bands. I think my UE Fits did allow a more parametric style of EQ though which is nice, but again, you can only do 5 adjustments on those. My Fiio neckband has a 10-band EQ which is actually very nice and was able to EQ my AAW Nightingale from the grave. I'd probably say that most TWS IEMs nowadays have EQ support, though most are only 5-band with some customizable and some not.

Personally I just got tired of waiting and ordered a Qudelix 5K + HD560S. At least at home I won't be grumpy anymore when I either don't want to listen to speakers or be tethered to my computer.
Outside I'll still be grumpy - all the more so since I don't like to transport the APM and my APPs regularly fail. Never mind, I'll just vent my frustration on my fellow Parisians, that's basically how you do it here.

 

[SparkOnShore]

With what Apple's doing with the APM and APP, you could think about it as a real time corrective EQ for your head. There isn't anything inherently wrong with EQing, I tend to shy away from doing it if I don't have to and when comparing headphones. It's also not as readily available for me unfortunately either since I listen to/stream Apple Music, so the EQing apps won't work with it due to DRM.

I am more like you though, unless I absolutely have to, I'll avoid EQing a headphone. But understand there are a few manufacturers that utilize this as a way to fix their headphones. Apple's computational audio utilizes this for sure. In the past Audeze has taken advantage of DSP and EQ for the iSine series of headphones which apparently sound not so great until they are EQ'd either manually or through the Cipher cable. Audeze has kind of ditched this effort though as a lot of Head-Fiers don't really like EQing that much; it sort of becomes a hassle either way.

Me too, i only stream from Apple Music. I have been a subscriber from the start, before that i was in iTunes Music etc. I have 10.000 albums on Apple Music, so i am tied in a way!

 

[d-a07]

I'd like to add more bass to these headphones? Is there an app or eq on an iPhone.

 

[tkddans]

I’ve ordered and canceled, and ordered again, the APM for a second listen after a couple months of not having it.

Since my comparisons and reviews some time ago, I’ve gained GL2000 ($600) in my collection, and the IEM from Thieaudio Clairvoyance ($700). Though they probably outclass the APM in certain technical aspects, I’ll have a lot of fun comparing them from a pure subjective experience as well.

Cheaper headphones may be “worse” but better to enjoy at the same time.

 

[tinyman392]

Me too, i only stream from Apple Music. I have been a subscriber from the start, before that i was in iTunes Music etc. I have 10.000 albums on Apple Music, so i am tied in a way!

I had a handful of albums from iTunes that I downloaded, never used iTunes match though (until Apple Music). Moved from Spotify since the app kept deleting my 20GB offline music storage forcing me to redownload everything. After the 3rd or 4th time they did this, I figured I needed to jump ship. Apple still thinks I'm a student so I get it for 5 bucks a month

I'd like to add more bass to these headphones? Is there an app or eq on an iPhone.

If you're using the default Music app, you can use the bass boost EQ (Settings > Music > EQ). This only applies to the Music app though. Spotify has it's own EQ (I forget if it's 5-band or 10-band). There are lots of EQ apps that exist on iOS, they need to hook into either the Music APIs (Apple Music streaming not supported due to DRM) or whatever source you are using for your music. Some of these apps allow you to sync music over through USB or FTP as well to get into. There is no system wide EQ unless you jailbreak your iPhone and find the appropriate jailbreak tweaks to do it (some of which are paid). EQing is a lot more tedious and a lot less friendly on iOS which is unfortunate.

I’ve ordered and canceled, and ordered again, the APM for a second listen after a couple months of not having it.

Since my comparisons and reviews some time ago, I’ve gained GL2000 ($600) in my collection, and the IEM from Thieaudio Clairvoyance ($700). Though they probably outclass the APM in certain technical aspects, I’ll have a lot of fun comparing them from a pure subjective experience as well.

Cheaper headphones may be “worse” but better to enjoy at the same time.

The Clairvoyance have a very clean FR curve. The bass response of that might rival the APM to be honest (even in tonality).

 

[SparkOnShore]

This would definitely be the best starting point to attempt to get this going. I personally haven't tried it myself though.

The APM and APP are tuned very differently which caught me off guard. If I remember correctly, the APP is tuned within like 2-3 dB of DF neutral for like 90% of the frequency spectrum. The APM is not quite going after that. I can't deny that the APM is a technically better sounding headphone, despite being less neutral (to my ears), but that DF neutral is closer to my preference for sound, so I am still able to enjoy my APP when I want to.

Though in the in-ear space, there are lots of better options too. For TWS, with adapters like the the TRN BT20S Pro, Fiio UTWS 3, and Shure's TWS adapters, you can turn just about any detachable-cable IEM into a TWS and with the IEM's very good passive isolation in general ANC is less of a necessity (though transparency is a different story).

I never enjoyed so much neutral or even close to neutral audio. I always liked some kind of coloration as long as it is not exaggerated to the point of not being faithful at all to the artist’s intentions. I have been always enjoying a fuller bass presentation than what neutrality requires, maybe that’s what i miss now on the APP, after listening on the APM. This is exactly what i loved on the APM, that what i enjoy in sound is all there, without masking the rest spectrum. Balanced but meanwhile rich and evocative sound, that’s what APM is for me. For example i was loving the Senn momentum 3 for their bass presentation, which was there but still allowing mids to be presented as neutral as possible. But now, after owing the APM, i see that there can be a nice, low and even more detailed bass, with a very clear and balanced sound overall, in a level that the Senns could not reach for sure. I listen a lot to electronic music in general, so bass presentation is quite important for this sound.

 

[tinyman392]

I never enjoyed so much neutral or even close to neutral audio. I always liked some kind of coloration as long as it is not exaggerated to the point of not being faithful at all to the artist’s intentions. I have been always enjoying a fuller bass presentation than what neutrality requires, maybe that’s what i miss now on the APP, after listening on the APM. This is exactly what i loved on the APM, that what i enjoy in sound is all there, without masking the rest spectrum. Balanced but meanwhile rich and evocative sound, that’s what APM is for me. For example i was loving the Senn momentum 3 for their bass presentation, which was there but still allowing mids to be presented as neutral as possible. But now, after owing the APM, i see that there can be a nice, low and even more detailed bass, with a very clear and balanced sound overall, in a level that the Senns could not reach for sure. I listen a lot to electronic music in general, so bass presentation is quite important for this sound.

Understandable, a bass bump is very likable when it's there, especially when done properly. The APM does that quite well. With the APP vs APM, it definitely will have preference playing a huge role too.