[x RELIC x]

@FullBright1, have you heard the ETHER C Flow?

I own them, and they are bass light relative to the ETHER Flow open. From what I gather from reading the threads, and from sources I trust, the AEON C actually has a little more bass than the ETHER Flow C, so your theory of paying more for more bass doesn’t really make sense to me.

Edit: Never mind, Dan clarified below...

 

[FullBright1]

@FullBright1, have you heard the ETHER C Flow?

I own them, and they are bass light relative to the ETHER Flow open. From what I gather from reading the threads, and from sources I trust, the AEON C actually has a little more bass than the ETHER Flow C, so your theory of paying more for more bass doesn’t really make sense to me.

Yes, thank you xRelic X, ive heard of it, but i don't own the product yet., but im thinking about it as i Master and Mix Music, and so, as these are Reference level closed Cans, i might get them, soon.
Also,
Tyll doesn't think they are bass light as compared to the Aeons.
So, i'll have to wait for Dan to give us the final analysis regarding his Ether-C's designed bass AMOUNT, as compared to the Aeon C's neutral or similar bass response as he designed it.
Z-Reviews, didnt think the Ether C-s Bass response is less then the Aeon's, and as a matter of fact Z completely flipped out regarding the Ether C's, and is going to spend real USD to own them.
The one review on Amazon, didn't mention less bass.
But thank you for your opinion, and im glad you are diggin' your set, however, i hope you are wrong, as i would not want less bass response then is provided by the Aeons.
Absolutely not.

SO then....
Actually what i have been saying, is a bit deeper then what you are implying.
To simplify, i have clearly said that all businesses operate on the principle of "the entry level" vs the "fully stocked high end"., as with all products, it's all about options, and good, better, and best.
And for that to work out as it should, in the case of a headphone designer like AKG, or Beyer, or Senn, or Dan, ... they can't give you their BEST of anything, in their entry or mid model, as if they did that, then why would you buy their most expensive set that has all the goodies built right in that are obviously never going to be offered in their "lower priced models".
How could Fang charge you $6000 for his Susvare, if you could get that sound in his $500 Sundara's?
Ok, all together now.........DUH. ...
So that is a fact, and that is all im saying, and not only is this obviously logical, its also absolutely the truth.
Dan is not a fool. Sennheiser is not stupid....... AKG is not a pack of german morons........ Audeze is not brain dead from the neck heading north.......
These excellent creators of Superior World Class Headphones, like Dan, are not going to give you their $1500 - $3000 "best" in their $800 product., as this would not be smart, logical, or practical business SENSE, and = this is NOT a bad thing.. It is in fact, the way it should be., and will continue to be.
This is just smart business, this is Mazda 3 vs Mazda 6.
This is Audi 4 vs, Audi 8.
This is the base model Toyota Camry with cloth seats, vs the LX with "Corinthian Leather and Focal Sound System"".
Its just the reality of how a business has to do it, to stay in business, and to meet the market's requirements, and also, fairly and nicely offer something excellent at an affordable price, as not everyone can afford or do they NEED a $6000 Hifiman Susvare, So, clever, smart, expert, Headphone designers like Dan, want to get all of his fantastic products in all the hands that want them, and so he offers the more affordable vs the more expensive, and the trade off is, you are not getting the very best Dan -Tone, in his less expensive headphones, anymore then you are going to get the very best that Hifiman has to offer, in a $500 set of Sundara's.
But this trade off does not mean that you are not getting something spectacular., as is the case of Dan's Aeon's, as they are KILLER Headphones.
Killer.
KILLER.
KILLER !!

= As ive said, as ive reviewed them here, and as i will continue to pronounce them to be..
Its a fact.

 

[phthora]

As i said, put a pillow over the headphones, then turn up the volume to compensate for the fact that you are smothering their sound.
Same with a pad(s).
Thats just reality, and if you dont like it, then dont blame me, blame reality....
See, Its like putting fingers in your ears, then turning up the volume to COMPENSATE.
That is actually what you are explaining is a GOOD IDEA, and thats kinda funny, and i like funny.

Try to consider it like this., Phthora
The reason that you are forced to turn up the volume, is because the speakers are being smothered by stuffing that you put inside you headphone enclosure.
You could put a steel wool pad in there, or a piece of carpet, or a piece of cardboard, a "conformed" paper towel..... = anything is exactly for the same reason.
"Pad" sound more authentic, but in reality they are just tone - volume blockers.
Do you want to block your speakers tone and volume?
Here is how you do it...... Put a pad between your speakers and your ears.
= Done deal.

Follow me yet?
Ok, here is more then...

Think of it like this...... take the pads out of your headphones, and put cotton in both your ear holes, then turn up the volume of your headphones and tell me ..."see there, all solved".
As that is what you just told me is making your headphone experience better.

One more. (for now) ........
And this one is golden...

Imagine the singer "Sting" of the Police.
Remember him?..... "Roxanne, Message in a Bottle, Fields of Gold"? Cause The Police to break up so that he could go and pretend to conquer the Jazz world? ......yeah, that guy.
According to your philosophy of stuffing stuff into your headphones to make them "better", , so that you can then over come this sound filter by turning up the volume,.... This is exactly like putting a big fat pair of wool socks in Sting's mouth and telling him....."ok buddy, just sing LOUDER".

So you see how you are thinking about pads in a way that is defying correct thinking or logic?
I do.

Pththora, ......What you should do is take the pads , all of them, out of your Aeon's, and listen to them for 30 mins.
As THEN you will experience the actual unmolested sound of your Aeon C's.
Have you tried that yet, as that IS their actual designed TUNING and SOUND, that DAN created them to sound like.
Try it.
Get the sonic revelation.
If you need music, then go to the "Pop" thread here and find and listen to the 40 or 50 high res music videos that i have posted there,, would be a good place for you to start.

Here is a thought experiment for you and an ideal analogue for what the pads do. Do this is an EQ: cut all frequencies above 250hz by 3db. Now, raise the overall volume by 3db to compensate. Finally, compare the result to simply raising everything below 250hz by 3db. You won't even have to listen to the result to see that they are identical.

In order for you to disagree with those results, you would have to argue that somehow raising the overall volume by 3db itself degrades the sound.

Easy to disprove that. Look at the THD+N measurements from Innerfidelity for AEON C with and without filter pads:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAeonsnACXB168.pdf
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAeonsnACXB168wFilters.pdf

Pads in, the AEONs measured lower in THD+N with the pads! Sorry if that is "defying correct thinking or logic," but that is the objectively measured fact of the matter. It's not like smothering some singer's face with a pillow, it's like putting on a pair of sunglasses to filter out excess light and glare.

Lastly, BTW, I never use the pads in my AEONs because I think they have enough bass as is. Only rarely do I use bass boost and typically only for specific genres. I prefer the "unmolested" sound.

 

[FullBright1]

Here is a thought experiment for you and an ideal analogue for what the pads do. Do this is an EQ: cut all frequencies above 250hz by 3db. Now, raise the overall volume by 3db to compensate. Finally, compare the result to simply raising everything below 250hz by 3db. You won't even have to listen to the result to see that they are identical.

In order for you to disagree with those results, you would have to argue that somehow raising the overall volume by 3db itself degrades the sound.

Easy to disprove that. Look at the THD+N measurements from Innerfidelity for AEON C with and without filter pads:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAeonsnACXB168.pdf
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAeonsnACXB168wFilters.pdf

Pads in, the AEONs measured lower in THD+N with the pads! Sorry if that is "defying correct thinking or logic," but that is the objectively measured fact of the matter. It's not like smothering some singer's face with a pillow, it's like putting on a pair of sunglasses to filter out excess light and glare.

Lastly, BTW, I never use the pads in my AEONs because I think they have enough bass as is. Only rarely do I use bass boost and typically only for specific genres. I prefer the "unmolested" sound.

.

Its impossible for a barrier not to be a barrier, especially as in the case of Dan's pads, actually designed to be one, phthora.
The very reason for the pads, according to Dan, excludes and defies and usurps your entire argument.
The pads reduce., change, alter, = volume, tone, frequency, resonance, and perception.... = and that is by Dan's design.
To what degree they reduce, smother, restrict, or otherwise, impede, = resolution, volume, & frequency response, is based on, according to Dan, which pads you insert....
So, Dan's pads are designed to both change tone and frequency compensate., which they all do.
Each one of them , as a set, is designed to execute a specific eq cut.
They do this by masking or blocking or impeding (filtering) the original-raw-naked- signal that is heading to your eardrums.

 

[mrspeakers]

-

Not everyone equates 'treble" with resolution or detail, but i do.

But i did want to ask you 4 questions, Dan.

1.) Did you know when you designed the Aeon, that their bass was certainly no more then "neutral at best"?

2.) Do your Ether C's have more bass response, as a designed tone, then your Aeon's?

3.) Do you ship pads, in the box, with your Ether C's, and if not, why not?

You don't have to agree with me on tuning pads, and I don't have to agree with your statements like "neutral at best" or that you equate treble to detail. As such, there's no need to answer the first question, as it's not a technical or product discussion and I'm not debating your tonal perceptions with you, they are what they are.

Your second question is simple, in order of least to most bass it's ETHER C, AEON Closed, ETHER C Flow. Through use of damping AEON can approach ETHER C Flow's bass tone, but the 75% larger surface area of the C Flow driver and larger cup allows it to hit harder and move more air than AEON.

The third question is incredibly complicated to answer, this is a short answer and I'm not elaborating further. With ETHER C the goal of the headphone was a closed headphone that delivered neutrality. We did add a 1.1 tuning kit to damp the highs and warm the tone when we got market feedback that the highs were too peaky and we found a backward compatible fix (in retrospect they were). When the ETHER C Flow came out, the Flow tech significantly increased the bass output we could achieve as well as resolution through the full spectrum. Since we'd heard customer interest in a heavy bass product, C Flow was voiced that way because the updated motor allowed it to go where ETHER C couldn't and we felt it would be fun to add a bass-heavy headphone to the line for those so inclined. ETHER Flow has more mid bass and upper bass output than C Flow because the cup imposes constraints on the part of the spectrum, but C Flow is a sub-bass beast. Some customers who wanted more bass upgraded to Flow and after Flow was released anyone who bought an ETHER C clearly wanted a more linear, neutral sound while those wanting max bass went with C Flow. I assume most customers had what they wanted and as such we heard no demand for tuning options for either ETHER model. If there were demand for tuning kits we'd release them as this would be in line with our philosophy of allowing personalization of sound signature to match preferences, but there isn't so we don't.

Along these lines, AEON C was designed to be closer to neutral with the ability to warm the tone, an ability which we expanded when it was clear there was interest in having more options. If we had two AEON closed models with different signatures that might never have arisen, but we don't and so the demand was there and we responded.

Lastly, I note in your profile you think any tweeks mean something is junk to begin with. This is your perspective and you are welcome to it, but perhaps consider opening your mind to a different reality. IMHO absolutism in head-gear is impossible once you understand how people's perceptions vary based on physiology. For example I have verified that peaks of standing waves at high frequencies can move by +/- 1.5K and +/-5dB based on pinna and ear canal. How this relates to actual perception across listeners with music rather than tones is less clear however I've verified that people do not hear peaks and nulls at the same frequencies or amplitudes even on the same physical headphone, and have seen multiple examples where one person hears sibilance and another won't on the same track and gear, yet both have comparable high-frequency hearing acuity. It's obvious to many of us who do design work that assuming everyone hears the same thing on a given headphone is problematic at best and making allowance for this in design is extremely complex. Our tuning kits in part evolved from this awareness, we'll probably make more not less use of tech like this over time as we better understand the relationship between physiology and perception.

 

[FullBright1]

You don't have to agree with me on tuning pads, and I don't have to agree with your statements like "neutral at best" or that you equate treble to detail. As such, there's no need to answer the first question, as it's not a technical or product discussion and I'm not debating your tonal perceptions with you, they are what they are.

Your second question is simple, in order of least to most bass it's ETHER C, AEON Closed, ETHER C Flow. Through use of damping AEON can approach ETHER C Flow's bass tone, but the 75% larger surface area of the C Flow driver and larger cup allows it to hit harder and move more air than AEON.

The third question is incredibly complicated to answer, this is a short answer and I'm not elaborating further. With ETHER C the goal of the headphone was a closed headphone that delivered neutrality. We did add a 1.1 tuning kit to damp the highs and warm the tone when we got market feedback that the highs were too peaky and we found a backward compatible fix (in retrospect they were). When the ETHER C Flow came out, the Flow tech significantly increased the bass output we could achieve as well as resolution through the full spectrum. Since we'd heard customer interest in a heavy bass product, C Flow was voiced that way because the updated motor allowed it to go where ETHER C couldn't and we felt it would be fun to add a bass-heavy headphone to the line for those so inclined. ETHER Flow has more mid bass and upper bass output than C Flow because the cup imposes constraints on the part of the spectrum, but C Flow is a sub-bass beast. Some customers who wanted more bass upgraded to Flow and after Flow was released anyone who bought an ETHER C clearly wanted a more linear, neutral sound while those wanting max bass went with C Flow. I assume most customers had what they wanted and as such we heard no demand for tuning options for either ETHER model. If there were demand for tuning kits we'd release them as this would be in line with our philosophy of allowing personalization of sound signature to match preferences, but there isn't so we don't.

Along these lines, AEON C was designed to be closer to neutral with the ability to warm the tone, an ability which we expanded when it was clear there was interest in having more options. If we had two AEON closed models with different signatures that might never have arisen, but we don't and so the demand was there and we responded.

Lastly, I note in your profile you think any tweeks mean something is junk to begin with. This is your perspective and you are welcome to it, but perhaps consider opening your mind to a different reality. IMHO absolutism in head-gear is impossible once you understand how people's perceptions vary based on physiology. For example I have verified that peaks of standing waves at high frequencies can move by +/- 1.5K and +/-5dB based on pinna and ear canal. How this relates to actual perception across listeners with music rather than tones is less clear however I've verified that people do not hear peaks and nulls at the same frequencies or amplitudes even on the same physical headphone, and have seen multiple examples where one person hears sibilance and another won't on the same track and gear, yet both have comparable high-frequency hearing acuity. It's obvious to many of us who do design work that assuming everyone hears the same thing on a given headphone is problematic at best and making allowance for this in design is extremely complex. Our tuning kits in part evolved from this awareness, we'll probably make more not less use of tech like this over time as we better understand the relationship between physiology and perception.

-
-

Thank you for all the information.
If i might respond..
Is it in your best interest to tell a person who has purchased your product, and supplied this forum with a enthusiastic and extremely flattering and positive review of your Aeon C, that because you feel that my 1st question does not meet your specific criteria, you then are free to not answer it?
You might ponder that before you reply in haste...as a lot of people read what i say on this pubic forum....so, my best advice is for you to open your mind (also) and realize what you did, by taking such an approach to a simple question that only asked you if you are responsible for the bass response, no matter how i perceive it....... as, You did author the sound of the headphone, so, no need to skip the question.
Next, ..
I find it interesting that you explain that , the market, for pad mods, generated the reason that you provides them for the Aeons, but not continuing for the Ethers.
Interesting, as this means that IF you shipped pads with your first "run" of Aeons, with no market feedback yet, as until they were used by the market (buyers) , there would have been ZERO market feedback, yet, that told you to supply pads.?????????? So that is an interesting approach to citing the "market" as your reason for supplying the Aeon's pads, (as the original reason you supplied them", yet, the "market" had not heard them yet, if you supplied the first "run" of Aeon's with pads.

Finally, you stated that because 99% of Headphone builders, .. Beyer, AKG, Sennheiser, Shure, Audeze, 1More, Sonoma, and 2o more i can name, DO NOT supply "pad mods", and i dont want or need them, YET, you say that my "mind is closed", and can be opened if i agree with your philosophy of only offering them (apparently) for the Aeons.
So if that is your apparent reality then i would suggest that my closed mind is in excellent company, and shall remain so.
And truly, im not opposed to pads or mods, but, like all the Headphone makers i listed, WE just feel that its dissatisfaction with sound and performance of their headphones that initially and perpetually drives most of them into modification obsession, or into the career of making headphones, , and if they were satisfied, they would not do it.
What i want, is to enjoy what i pay for, because it sounds great from the factory, and better with some burn in, and does not need to be operated on, to try to make it useable and enjoyable.
So, anyone who tries to prove that the main reason people alter the sound of their $500 - $6000 headphones, is because they want to make what they love, even better, is blowing smoke and knows it.
I certainly do.

Ok, im done, its late.

And thanks again for answering some of my questions, and if you decide to continue our discussion, i'll now know exactly how to phrase all my future questions, so that they meet your criteria for a response.
Or, if you feel that we have now achieved a successful resolution regarding our discussion, and would like to move on, then i will let you make that call.
Ither way, im good.
And it would be remiss of me to not thank you, Dan, for studying my bio before you posted your responses.
Im flattered that you would want and need to know, if possible, who and what you are dealing with, before you decided to post back to me.
I didnt do the same for you, and that is not an insult.
I just dont need to do it.
I guess for future reference, you might consider the alt-name i chose for myself here, as its a factually clear indicator of more about me, personally, then what you read in my partial bio that took 5 mins to write some years ago.
Let me tell you more about me , Mr Fine Headphone maker, so that you get a more precise feel for who is writing to you, and buying your gears.
Im a professional, regarding a few "careers".....mainly only 4.... Music, Drafting, Health Care, and Teaching.. My passions, my enthusiasms, border around hand made acoustic guitars, Digital Photography, and of course, listening equipment.
So, thats a little bit about me FYI, and you dont have to supply me with more about you, as all i need to know about you i have discovered in your last 3 posts, here.
And i discerned a bit about you, also, based on the specific name you chose for your company, as well as how you designed your website and how you designed your Aeon's box, carrying case, tone, feel, and look, and also chose their cables.

So, Dan, talk to you soon ??????????????????? , or see ya around, as its past my bedtime, and i hit the gym hard and very early tomorrow.

so, gd'nite, and happy building way out west where all the boys are tall, and all the girls are golden tanned and pretty. (they hope)...



FB1

 

[Gilles De Rais]

IMO I find the thing that most impacts the Aeon's bass response is the amp driving them. I'm running mine through a Naim Dac V-1 which is a desktop dac/amp with a lovely Class A headphone amplifier. This type of set-up provides more than enough voltage swing to drive the Aeons with some pretty impressive bass. By way of comparison it (the bass) is on a comparable plane with the HD650s and the Beyerdynmaic T1s sitting on my desk - none of which has been accused of being bass-light. When I've tried other, lesser, amps (both portable and desktop) the inability to provide sufficient current makes the Aeons (and the others) sound aneamic, flacid and lacking in bass. I've noted amongst our colleagues a tendency to blame the transducer for all ills, when to my mind you always need to match the headphone to the amp.

regards,

Giles

 

[329161]

It's like complaining that the Pope is Catholic.
Virtually EVERY single review and post re: Aeon C indicates neutral or light bass response which can be altered with tuning psds. What's the point of arguing and pointing it out?

 

[LarryMagoo]

IMO I find the thing that most impacts the Aeon's bass response is the amp driving them. I'm running mine through a Naim Dac V-1 which is a desktop dac/amp with a lovely Class A headphone amplifier. This type of set-up provides more than enough voltage swing to drive the Aeons with some pretty impressive bass. By way of comparison it (the bass) is on a comparable plane with the HD650s and the Beyerdynmaic T1s sitting on my desk - none of which has been accused of being bass-light. When I've tried other, lesser, amps (both portable and desktop) the inability to provide sufficient current makes the Aeons (and the others) sound aneamic, flacid and lacking in bass. I've noted amongst our colleagues a tendency to blame the transducer for all ills, when to my mind you always need to match the headphone to the amp.

regards,

Giles

Giles,

I very much agree with your statement about amplification.....I don't think portable amps can drive the AFC sufficiently to hear the bass I hear from my Class A HP amp...They are not the easiest HP's to drive despite their Ohm rating. I continue to really enjoy both my AFC's and the company that built them. Their ergonomic shape and how they fit my head and my hands adds immensely to their enjoyment. The fact that they can be somewhat tuned to your preferences is another huge plus for Mr Speakers!

 

[FullBright1]

It's like complaining that the Pope is Catholic.
Virtually EVERY single review and post re: Aeon C indicates neutral or light bass response which can be altered with tuning psds. ?

yes that is correct.
most, nearly all, reviews, of the Aeon C, say the bass is noticeable in a way that is usually described as lean, neutral, light, .. which is really all the same description.
Where all this began to become interesting, is regarding the first thing i said about "why" they are created to be bass light.....using the classic "business model, "stepping up the customer".... So, i'll skip a repost of all that, as its been often re-quoted and duly noted, and mostly spun and misunderstood.

But then, began my search, just out of curiosity, regarding trying to discover why this product was not created with slightly bass, so that you wouldn't even have to think about dealing with pads to deal with their bass response.
Seems like a really good and really interesting question, to me.
So, that is one of the things i was asking Dan......Which is, .. instead of supplying this speaker filtering product, with a factory installed MOD in the BOX.......as that is , you might say, unusual.... Why not just design them to not need
any type of modification of their bass, or any type of mod at all?
And then the lightning began to strike, and the winds began to howl, as i continued to try to discover the answer.

Dan finally showed up, and gave an interesting answer about "markets", as the reason for the pads, which does not satisfy my need to know why he supplies pad to only the Aeon and not to the Ether.
So really, he gave the wrong answer, and my question was not the right question.
So, Here is a head's up.
These headphones have very fine and good sounding bass that does not thump, and they dont need pads, or modding.......and what happened is, because its offered, and the Cans actually come modded in the box, .... this implies that they need it, as if, there is a problem that can be solved if you use the pads.
AND RIGHT THERE, is where Dan's answer, yesterday, was a good one, but didnt address the fact that because headphones are coming already modded, and with more pad offers to do more, then you naturally think the headphones must need it , because something is wrong. And Dan's answer didnt clear up this misconception, unfortunately, and its IS a misconception.
The fact is, these headphones sound best, with no pads..... So, the pads are moot, regarding their NECESSITY......and thats a fact, and that is basically the end of the discussion, regarding "pad necessity", involving Aeon Flow's.
So, then, you are left wondering..... why do it to the Aeons, and not do it for the Ethers?
And you want to know why?........ Well, what i have decided is the reason, is that the price range for this headphone, hits the Mod-Addicts right in their sweet spot, and so, Dan,... being a Geeky Modding Freak himself, just did what he felt like doing, and in this case, he wanted to offer the "Mod-Geek market" that He feels this Headphone is in general going to $$$$$$ feed.....> He decided to do something cool and that was to create "factory mods" that come with the headphones... = The Pads. And he did it in a way that is user friendly, very precise, and does no physical alteration to the product. Its sort of a "freebie" thrown in for the Mod-Geeks, who he feels are the ones that this product is especially going to find as their owners, more then the Ethers.........So, he is feeding THAT MARKET, some extras...just for the fun of it...... And that is why he did it, is what i have decided to believe, based on what he does, and why he does it, and for whom, and all based on the info, and using simple sound Logic.
That is my 2-Cents, and you can run with it from there, oh ye lucky readers.


And SO, to back up to the beginning of all this conversation, Yesterday.... i stated that putting a sound filtering device... like fingers in your ears, or a pillow over your headphones, or sock's in Sting's mouth, or pads in front of the speakers in your headphones, is limiting their design's intended performance, and then the conversation morphed, (according to all who dig the pads and live to mod) into much preaching around here regarding the benefits of pad smothering your headphones volume and frequency, as a really good idea, (as proclaimed by some, while denied by me till infinity and beyond), while one zealot posted charts that tried to imply that filtering a speaker with a pad, is not really doing that at all.......
So, in all this fun and calamity, i wrote a reply to Dan late last night, and if he replies back, i'll do likewise, but i also offered him.... to just leave it be and just chat about the wonder of the Aeon's instead, as a possible best option.

And let me say again, as ive said 15x now on this tread, including a review...... If you have the money, and want a killer set of headphones that have, what i think, is a strikingly similar sound to the very sound that Sennheiser could and should have created long ago by designing a closed version of their HD600, as that is a lot of what i hear, in Dan's magical Aeon's, then BUY THESE...... As im hearing that lot of that sound within my Aeons, although Dan geek- tweeked the tone... He ramped up the resolution, finessed the mids, and changed the bass to a mostly perfect "neutral'', and created a top end that is sort of slightly more 60% analytical then slightly less 40% lush.
In my opinion, there does not exist a better sounding or wearing $0 - $1200.00 closed headphone in the known universe, then the Aeon C.
It provides a beautifully refined and truly impressive audiophile listening experience without the pads, and if you are a modaholic who like to play with your headphones sound, then Dan has you covered, and its all direct from the factory, and included in the box.

 

[mrspeakers]

-
-

Thank you for all the information.
If i might respond..
Is it in your best interest to tell a person who has purchased your product, and supplied this forum with a enthusiastic and extremely flattering and positive review of your Aeon C, that because you feel that my 1st question does not meet your specific criteria, you then are free to not answer it?
You might ponder that before you reply in haste...as a lot of people read what i say on this pubic forum....so, my best advice is for you to open your mind (also) and realize what you did, by taking such an approach to a simple question that only asked you if you are responsible for the bass response, no matter how i perceive it....... as, You did author the sound of the headphone, so, no need to skip the question.
Next, ..

So, Dan, talk to you soon ??????????????????? , or see ya around, as its past my bedtime, and i hit the gym hard and very early tomorrow.

so, gd'nite, and happy building way out west where all the boys are tall, and all the girls are golden tanned and pretty. (they hope)...

FB1

It's in my interest to answer questions that I can answer or that I think it is productive to answer. Not every question fits that, and no offense should be taken.

I got into this discussion because I felt it was suggested AEON's bass was designed to move people to ETHER C Flow, which not only was never considered but is directly opposed to how we design product. We do not design products to drive people up market, though it might be more profitable if we did. Instead, we push our technology down market in an effort to put out killer products at lower price points, as you clearly appreciate. Many companies may work as you suggest, though there are some, like Schiit, who have been something of a role model to us, and have done exceptionally well indeed. The point is only that our intention is literally the opposite of what you seemed to suggest, and I wanted to be really clear about our development strategy as it is a major philosophical underpinning of the business, and one I hope our customers appreciate.

Our business model and our approach to voicing are tightly coupled. I do not voice by "lows, mids and highs," I used to but now I find that far too limiting. I voice to create an experience, which to me is the totality of everything about the fit and function of the product. I try to maximize the quality of each product, regardless of price, and I never deliberately handicap a product. The tradeoffs vary for open and closed, large and small drivers, etc, so the voicing will have much in common, but also obvious differences. Some headphones will have bigger or lesser soundstage, more or less bass, more lively or slightly stepped back highs, but these factors are in many ways tied together. Since there is no single perfect voicing when you account for multiple variables, tuning makes sense because it allows owners to fine-tune within limits, to get the best balance of attributes for them. As a result, there are more than a few people who prefer the sound of an open or closed AEON to an open or closed ETHER, without consideration of price. Considering price, ETHER costs 2x more to make, so it costs 2x more to buy, but of course it is not 2x the experience (diminishing returns always come into play). My view is if you prefer ETHER and can afford it, great! If you prefer AEON and can afford ETHER, still great! And if you prefer ETHER but can't afford it AEON offers a fantastic value and a huge part of the performance. This is how I design products.

For most people the cost differential between AEON and ETHER is so high that it's a different product category altogether; most people in the market for an $800 headphone wouldn't consider another $1000, regardless of sonics or other attributes, it's a budget limit. Had upselling been our strategy it would have failed as jumping up over 2x in price only works for people for whom cost isn't a consideration, which is a much smaller part of the market. It should surprise no-one that when we spend more on parts, the sound quality will improve. Because we use so much common technology we expected AEON would cannibalize some ETHER sales but if that let us put 3x more headphones at 1/2 the price in more people's hands, that was OK. Bluntly, we would rather eat our own lunch than let someone else do it. In fact AEON initially slowed ETHER sales, but ETHER came roaring back to life in January and we've had a hard time keeping them in stock. I suppose it was just the channel clearing out inventory.

With respect to tuning kits, this is an evolving process. Sometimes our ideas work (AEON pads), sometimes they failed (Alpha tuning dots). Since Alpha tuning was a flop I didn't have it on my mind with ETHER, but It popped up again with ETHER 1.1 foam update. That foam was already part of the preliminary tuning in ETHER flow while it was in development, so I didn't think about tuning as a product feature. When AEON launched, I revisited tuning and followed my instincts to try the ETHER 1.1 approach as a test to offer a simple way to pick one of 2 voicings, which I hoped would expand the available market. Turned out people used both and many had preferences for one, so we expanded the options further with AEON open. That worked even better, so we expanded the choices for both with an enhanced kit that's really cheap and hopefully fun for those so inclined. Our approach evolves because I listen to what works, or doesn't, for people.

I myself use the tuning kits every day, I find AEON open works great for me for jazz or classical with no damping, for rock with black felt or 1 notch white, and for Electronica (or bright systems), 1 or 2 notch white. One headphone, three experiences. Work for everyone? Nope, but a lot of people like it and that is exactly the point, and I hope its especially useful for those for whom an $800 headphone is a major commitment where having multiple voicings can be used in place of investing in multiple headphones, allowing purchase of one better headphone, or better supporting gear. I consider tuning to now be a successful experiment and we'll continue to evolve it as a product feature where it makes sense. We even did it with VOCE.

Will I put a question out on the ETHER threads to see if people want tuning? Sure, it's a good point that perhaps nobody thought to ask, after all I didn't. That said, most of the tuning requests we had on ETHER to date have been from people with high-frequency hearing loss looking to brighten the headphone as much as possible, which is pretty contrary to mainstream head-fi, and I will have to spend some time figuring out if there are options I'd even want to put out there.

Lastly, I appreciate that you wrote a nice review, thank you! I hadn't seen it until now as it was in another thread, perhaps you may want to post it here?

If you come to a CanJam, say hello. Cheers...

 

[FullBright1]

It's in my interest to answer questions that I can answer or that I think it is productive to answer. Not every question fits that, and no offense should be taken.

I got into this discussion because I felt it was suggested AEON's bass was designed to move people to ETHER C Flow, which not only was never considered but is directly opposed to how we design product. We do not design products to drive people up market, though it might be more profitable if we did. Instead, we push our technology down market in an effort to put out killer products at lower price points, as you clearly appreciate. Many companies may work as you suggest, though there are some, like Schiit, who have been something of a role model to us, and have done exceptionally well indeed. The point is only that our intention is literally the opposite of what you seemed to suggest, and I wanted to be really clear about our development strategy as it is a major philosophical underpinning of the business, and one I hope our customers appreciate.

Our business model and our approach to voicing are tightly coupled. I do not voice by "lows, mids and highs," I used to but now I find that far too limiting. I voice to create an experience, which to me is the totality of everything about the fit and function of the product. I try to maximize the quality of each product, regardless of price, and I never deliberately handicap a product. The tradeoffs vary for open and closed, large and small drivers, etc, so the voicing will have much in common, but also obvious differences. Some headphones will have bigger or lesser soundstage, more or less bass, more lively or slightly stepped back highs, but these factors are in many ways tied together. Since there is no single perfect voicing when you account for multiple variables, tuning makes sense because it allows owners to fine-tune within limits, to get the best balance of attributes for them. As a result, there are more than a few people who prefer the sound of an open or closed AEON to an open or closed ETHER, without consideration of price. Considering price, ETHER costs 2x more to make, so it costs 2x more to buy, but of course it is not 2x the experience (diminishing returns always come into play). My view is if you prefer ETHER and can afford it, great! If you prefer AEON and can afford ETHER, still great! And if you prefer ETHER but can't afford it AEON offers a fantastic value and a huge part of the performance. This is how I design products.

For most people the cost differential between AEON and ETHER is so high that it's a different product category altogether; most people in the market for an $800 headphone wouldn't consider another $1000, regardless of sonics or other attributes, it's a budget limit. Had upselling been our strategy it would have failed as jumping up over 2x in price only works for people for whom cost isn't a consideration, which is a much smaller part of the market. It should surprise no-one that when we spend more on parts, the sound quality will improve. Because we use so much common technology we expected AEON would cannibalize some ETHER sales but if that let us put 3x more headphones at 1/2 the price in more people's hands, that was OK. Bluntly, we would rather eat our own lunch than let someone else do it. In fact AEON initially slowed ETHER sales, but ETHER came roaring back to life in January and we've had a hard time keeping them in stock. I suppose it was just the channel clearing out inventory.

With respect to tuning kits, this is an evolving process. Sometimes our ideas work (AEON pads), sometimes they failed (Alpha tuning dots). Since Alpha tuning was a flop I didn't have it on my mind with ETHER, but It popped up again with ETHER 1.1 foam update. That foam was already part of the preliminary tuning in ETHER flow while it was in development, so I didn't think about tuning as a product feature. When AEON launched, I revisited tuning and followed my instincts to try the ETHER 1.1 approach as a test to offer a simple way to pick one of 2 voicings, which I hoped would expand the available market. Turned out people used both and many had preferences for one, so we expanded the options further with AEON open. That worked even better, so we expanded the choices for both with an enhanced kit that's really cheap and hopefully fun for those so inclined. Our approach evolves because I listen to what works, or doesn't, for people.

I myself use the tuning kits every day, I find AEON open works great for me for jazz or classical with no damping, for rock with black felt or 1 notch white, and for Electronica (or bright systems), 1 or 2 notch white. One headphone, three experiences. Work for everyone? Nope, but a lot of people like it and that is exactly the point, and I hope its especially useful for those for whom an $800 headphone is a major commitment where having multiple voicings can be used in place of investing in multiple headphones, allowing purchase of one better headphone, or better supporting gear. I consider tuning to now be a successful experiment and we'll continue to evolve it as a product feature where it makes sense. We even did it with VOCE.

Will I put a question out on the ETHER threads to see if people want tuning? Sure, it's a good point that perhaps nobody thought to ask, after all I didn't. That said, most of the tuning requests we had on ETHER to date have been from people with high-frequency hearing loss looking to brighten the headphone as much as possible, which is pretty contrary to mainstream head-fi, and I will have to spend some time figuring out if there are options I'd even want to put out there.

Lastly, I appreciate that you wrote a nice review, thank you! I hadn't seen it until now as it was in another thread, perhaps you may want to post it here?

If you come to a CanJam, say hello. Cheers...

Hi Dan, i'll try to keep this short, but, thats probably impossible, and i would certainly find you, if im at CJm.
I have some seriously trained Golden Ears. Got something new ?????
And yes, i just posted a revised version of my Aeon C review, here.....and its more specific, has been edited for clarity, and has been now more informed by much more time spent with the Cans. So, dIf you have a chance, dig in, as you'll like it.

You know, this morn, when i arrived to the gym, it was early, and i got out of the White Rav-4 and it was as if someone flipped on a switch that said, "welcome to summer heat"........ I had about 80ft remaining to the gym's entrance and i noticed some of the effects of the summer temp arriving on me even before i got there, and then i thought......."you are going in there to sweat and wear yourself out for 80 mins , so why do you care if you are already hot"....
Strange how we see it all at time .. So then, i went in, and i dress always the same..... Black shorts, grey top, different Nike's every day, and sunglasses and nice ear plugs. And everyone asks me about the glasses and the earplugs and why not BEATS strapped on my ears.....and why sunglasses in a public place........So, the answer is.....i have really sensitive eyes and ears, nearly perfect pitch... and for some reason, Bright Florescent lighting, makes my eye uncomfortable......but even if that were not the case.... Im a dedicated, disciplined, and long time/term user of a gym. I first started using a gym, when i was living in Israel, years ago, as i have a home there and still live there at times.... If you've never been to Israel....Then think of it as Texas with Hills in the Middle East....It so democratic, its so like America...Its a beautiful place with beautiful people... and this is a segue, but, most of the most beautiful women in the world, are Israelis...Jewish.... As a matter of fact, if you knew, who the prettiest women were that made Hollywood movies, since the 1920s, till Today... you would be OH SO Surprised to learn how many are Jewish.
As Jewish women......so many are so very beautiful. So, anyway.... In Netanya, as well as in Tel Aviv, and actually all along the coast of Israel, (Mediterranean Sea Coast), there are many outside gyms that are built on the beach, and they are all FREE....You just walk up, and work out... So, years ago, there, i got hooked. And over the years, and being fortunate that i am born with some measure of attractiveness, well, a girl in a gym, who looks like me, has to learn how to go there and not be constantly pursued by my male testosterone fuels male counterparts....> Nothing new, as we all really do live in the Real world, last time i checked...and this as it should be......So, the sunglasses and earplugs, are for my eyes and to signal. "privacy"..... and they also allow me to get into my own world, and just focus on the intense workout....
There is also the fact that when you are using Cans in a gym, and the gym is playing music at 90'ish db, a person with headphones on has a natural tendency to play their headphones too loud to try to compensate for the music in the room, and that is a no no no no no no....as ears once damaged, .....there is no going back, folks......So, i protect my ears.....i got to crazy lengths to do it.......I will wear earplugs when i probably dont need them, but, i'll do it anyway, as for me, my whole life since i was 7, has been based about sound......listening to it, making it, and helping others make it......Its really my life's purpose, it is as a "work" that i truly love with all. my heart, and very similar to you Dan, we both are dedicated to dealing with and dealing out sound, for the benefit of others.
People like us, who build and administer beautiful sound..... We make the world a better place, by giving people an honest and healthy way to get high and stay high,.... a way for them to encounter the epiphany experience, the contact high, and its safe, its blissful, and its actually good for them, as music listening makes you smarter, and can make your perspective regarding almost everything wider..
I often post high rez music vids here that are created using music that wont ever be heard on Sirus, or any type of FM radio situation, which is sad.....However, as non-forced cultual affiliation allows us to see farther down the road and deeper into the horizon, .. so does constant music listening have the ability to help us see the Light within Beauty all around us, and also see the world as a place that music has the ability to join together.
And no, im not a globalist, or a "citizen of the world", as Logic and Truth dictates that cultures by nature, will always collide,.... but,.... music by nature, has the ability to help us all join our hearts together in song, especially if we are all using great sounding headphones like your Aeon C's to get us there.

Ok, so where was i......um.....let see,,...... im supposed to be plowing you with questions about why you did this, and didnt do that,...... and didnt you design it to sound this way, or not.....etc, etc, blah, blah.....meaningless and trivial.

So, lets just agree that you make great products, and that i feel that if anyone is looking for a really fine closed headphone, then they cant find one that is better from $0 -1200.00 USD then your Aeon Cs..... Dan.
Tyll takes them with him on road trips, according to what i understand, and he's got that right., as ive heard them a LOT< and they are "keepers".

Ok then...
Happy Building..


see ya.


fb1

 

[mrspeakers]

Ok everyone, we’re about to enter the “moderator zone” so I politely remind everyone Head-Fi rules state respect each other’s sonic opinions and be courteous. Differences of opinion are all duly acknowedged and noted.

Can we resume normal broadcasting before fifty posts have to be deleted? Thanks!

 

[AxelCloris]

Dan has asked that the thread get back on track, so please keep that in mind with future posts. Thanks all.

 

[chris.d.m.]

So the final answer is..
The Aeon C's are well worth the money.
If you are a professional musician and a professional listener like i am , = the Aeon C's are worthy considerations if you need to mix and master, if you can't use your Studio Monitors and have to use Headphones to do it, as they , i feel, are quite accurate in tone and regarding musical representation.
Great product.
Buy them.
Why deny yourself the pleasure.

Appreciate the insights.
Being a mixer producer etc. The Aeon (open & closed) are very much on my radar to be considered for studio use.
I've heard it said that the closed "might" have a bit more of a neutral-ish signature?

It so pains me to have to sell the LCD X's that are glorious in the bottom and mids but,
I need the $ from them for family stuff and, hope to buy a more modestly priced (& hopefully more balanced top to bottom) pair for mixing duties, that don't require too fancy of an amp.