AEON, MrSpeakers' New Closed Back Planar Magnetic Headphone
Oct 29, 2017 at 11:41 PM Post #3,376 of 5,483
People all should be aware that everything stated on any forum on the Internet that is not backed by hard objective evidence is an opinion. People may have on post, or they may have 12,000 posts and be a accomplished reviewer, it doesn't matter, al they have is opinions. I don't know what substantiated means in this context... backed by other opinions?

False. A statement made without objective supporting evidence can still have a truth-value (it can still be true or false) based on some objective evidence that either has not been included or has yet to come to light. Inferences and predictions about what will occur under certain conditions can be later tested to determine their truth-value. These, then, are not opinions, despite not being backed by evidence; they are statements whose veracity remains unknown. Moreover, even those statements that seem on their surface to be subjective, such as whether X's bass is 'loose' or Y's treble is too pronounced, are still relative to a norm that exists independently of the individual perceiver. While there can be variation within those norms (personal differences on what qualifies as tightness in bass, for example), there are always statistically verifiable patterns that emerge from the application of norms to experience. Indeed, sites such as Head-Fi serve to codify those patterns and train people into closer intersubjective agreement. Given all this, a person who says that the bass on a particular headphone is 'loose' can be 'wrong' by failing to conform to this intersubjectively agreed upon meaning of 'loose.' Intuitively, this may sound incorrect, so let me illustrate. An objective example of an objective standard is that a rise in temperature will co-vary with the rise of mercury in a thermometer which will then mark off a numerical temperature. It will do so in a way that is consistent, measurable, and causal, making the use of a term like 76 degrees Fahrenheit objective in such a context. In a similar way, the use of 'loose' by a group of perceivers will co-vary with certain types of bass presentation in ways that are consistent, measurable, and causal. Such co-variance in the latter case will not be 100% as in the case of the thermometer, but the application of 'loose' remains predictable and co-relative to the bass. Something more than merely subjective. You could easily, therefore, see any individual 'opinion' as merely a prediction as to whether a term (such as 'loose bass') will be consistently linked to a particular headphone; such a statement could then have a truth-value and cease to be subjective. This is exactly how the meaning of words works generally. When I use the word 'hamster' in conversation, I am making a prediction that your experience with the term will be sufficiently close to what I 'mean' when I say it, and that prediction has a truth-value that is typically revealed immediately. This despite the fact that my very use of the term, taken en masse with all other uses, defines the term.

But, it is also false to assume that all opinions are of equal value, importance, and weight. One would not assume that a person who has spent 10 minutes with a headphone would have the same level of understanding as a person who had owned it for years, or a person who had only heard one headphone to have the same value of opinion as a person who had evaluated hundreds. In both cases, such an inexperienced person may not be sufficiently capable of evaluating their own listening, comparing it to their own norms and standards, or categorizing in their own mind the various aspects of what they are hearing. Independent of whether or not their experience and evaluation corresponds with any other person's, an inexperienced person may be incapable of sufficiently understanding their own interaction with a headphone. A person can be mistaken, then, in evaluating how a headphone meets his own norms and can even be mistaken in something as basic as whether or not he likes a headphone (I've done this myself after a too-brief encounter with a headphone in less-than-ideal listening conditions). In the context of the OP, I would assume a "substantiated" opinion would be one coming from a source sufficiently experienced in such ways and therefore reliably in tune with his own norms.
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 11:52 PM Post #3,377 of 5,483
I'm curious for input on Ryan Adams' 10 Songs Live at Carnegie Hall - I spent some time with this today and then went back and A/B'd with my P7W wired.

Setup: macbook pro > Tidal App > 24b/96k master stream > TOSlink s/pdif > Mojo > Aeon Flows w foam or P7W wired

What was interesting was:
* sound stage: good on the AFCs, less on the P7W but not OMG less, just somewhat less
* detail: good on the AFCs, less on the P7W, again not OMG less. example: around 53s into track 1 someone coughs and it echoes. On the P7w you can hear it but it's not overly noticeable. On the AFC, it's definitely noticeable.
* tone: again, the AFCs are "neutral" whereas on the P7W the presence is larger because of that mid-bass "dark" tone.

Anyway, if anyone is up for it, I'm curious to hear your impressions of these tracks. Would you call this recording on these cans a huge soundstage?
 
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Oct 30, 2017 at 1:22 AM Post #3,378 of 5,483
I'm curious for input on Ryan Adams' 10 Songs Live at Carnegie Hall - I spent some time with this today and then went back and A/B'd with my P7W wired.

Setup: macbook pro > Tidal App > 24b/96k master stream > TOSlink s/pdif > Mojo > Aeon Flows w foam or P7W wired

What was interesting was:
* sound stage: good on the AFCs, less on the P7W but not OMG less, just somewhat less
* detail: good on the AFCs, less on the P7W, again not OMG less. example: around 53s into track 1 someone coughs and it echoes. On the P7w you can hear it but it's not overly noticeable. On the AFC, it's definitely noticeable.
* tone: again, the AFCs are "neutral" whereas on the P7W the presence is larger because of that mid-bass "dark" tone.

Anyway, if anyone is up for it, I'm curious to hear your impressions of these tracks. Would you call this recording on these cans a huge soundstage?
Is it an entire album?
I can try to listen to it, not sure the type of music.
The Aeons do have a great live presence as I posted about before, if that is considered "soundstage" then yes the soundstage is huge.
But when it comes to instrument placement, the AFC does feel spacial and the instruments could be "anywhere" depending on the recordings (since soundstage also depends on the song).
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 1:30 AM Post #3,379 of 5,483
The Aeons are best used with a solid state amp

I stopped reading there. The fact you're trying to tell me what's unilaterally "best", when listening is entirely subjective, is absurd.

Yes, I know the most accurate listening will be with a superior quality SS amp. Duh? I have those too. However, if you can get 95% of the accuracy while adding 50% more engagement, that's a win-win.

Ah, I looked back and I see that you've tried this before, so I won't bother getting into it with you again over this kind of thing. :rolling_eyes:
 
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Oct 30, 2017 at 1:43 AM Post #3,380 of 5,483
Because on this forum there are readers with varying levels of experience of audio.

To some of the novices, a statement made with authority can lead them to accept that view without understanding or questioning the rationale behind it. My comment is more towards pointing out that for the benefit of others that clarification that this is an unsubstantiated opinion is important. We shouldn't assume that because experienced posters understand an unvoiced context that everyone will. If you look at the original comment, its pretty unambiguous that the claim is being made that tubes reduce the resolution of a high end dac - referencing a particular unit and noting the absence of tubes. If you were a newby, it sounds like this guy knows what he's talking about, so they might then accept this as an absolute. If one of our roles on a forum is to help others in their path on our hobby, we need to be more even-handed. If you make a sweeping statement without referencing its basis, you can expect to be called out.

regards,

Giles

Precisely. Saying, XX is better, don't bother with YY will only lead to people doing silly things, like avoiding tube amps (when they can add loads of character and texture, making listening much more enjoyable, while losing only a minimal amount of clarity). It's like the folks who won't try anything but an O2 amplifier, because they were told to not bother investigating anything else. It's absurd, and one of the reasons I ran away screaming from the objectivist camp in audio, there's no passion in it and it's sterile AF. No, cables aren't going to make audible changes usually, as long as they're within spec, but at the same time buying the previously-mentioned O2 DAC/amp and calling it a day isn't the path either. Throw in a decent OTL amp, roll some tubes, mix things up. That's part of the fun in audio.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 1:50 AM Post #3,381 of 5,483
I stopped reading there. The fact you're trying to tell me what's unilaterally "best", when listening is entirely subjective, is absurd.

Yes, I know the most accurate listening will be with a superior quality SS amp. Duh? I have those too. However, if you can get 95% of the accuracy while adding 50% more engagement, that's a win-win.

Ah, I looked back and I see that you've tried this before, so I won't bother getting into it with you again over this kind of thing. :rolling_eyes:

Sorry, accurate = best. I'm not sure what sort of "engagement" you are referring to as the music is either accurate or it is not accurate.
If you wish to use the Aeons for their amazing tonality and accuracy (which is why you buy an expensive headphone like this) then its best to use it with gear that can extract its quality.
If you wish to use the Aeons with gear that masks their quality or changes their tones because that is what you like, well its fine that is your choice. It doesn't mean its the best use of the Aeon, just that you like it.
That is what I am referring to, so when I say its "best" its because it is "best" when it comes to taking advantage of the tonality and detail of this amazing headphone.

Whether its the "best" for you based on your listening preferences also should probably determine if this really is the "best" headphone for you or if you like something else entirely.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 2:19 AM Post #3,382 of 5,483
Sorry, accurate = best.

No, and stop trying to tell people what's best for them. As I stated before, if you can add texture to a headphone's sound, making it more engaging, at the expense of a tiny amount of accuracy, that's generally considered a good trade. You don't like that, fine, but that's not an objective fact.

"This pairing is the most accurate" = an objectively measurable assertion
"Accurate = best" = hogwash

Furthermore, if you don't understand the sonic differences between changing amps and changing headphones, and what tubes can add, then you really aren't in a position to offer advice to anyone on this subject.
 
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Oct 30, 2017 at 10:44 AM Post #3,384 of 5,483
No, and stop trying to tell people what's best for them. As I stated before, if you can add texture to a headphone's sound, making it more engaging, at the expense of a tiny amount of accuracy, that's generally considered a good trade. You don't like that, fine, but that's not an objective fact.

"This pairing is the most accurate" = an objectively measurable assertion
"Accurate = best" = hogwash

Furthermore, if you don't understand the sonic differences between changing amps and changing headphones, and what tubes can add, then you really aren't in a position to offer advice to anyone on this subject.

Couldn't figure out what you were talking about until I clicked on "show ignored content". Makes sense now.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 11:38 AM Post #3,385 of 5,483
Wether you like to keep the Aeon dead neutral with a solid state (even though there are solid states that have real good flavor to them) or a tube amp to give it some warmth, its totally up to preference. All that matters is the smile on your face.

The same goes for bass pads in or out. I prefer them out when using a tube amp, but like them in when using something like the Questyle 600i.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 12:38 PM Post #3,387 of 5,483
I never said that you can't enjoy music any other way. But objectively people are paying for accuracy and this is what manufacturers are generally competing on.
I think its just a difficult thing to equate. Its like trying to describe "Musicality" to someone ha. To me completely dead neutral can boring and not my cup of tea. It could have gobs of "accuracy" but in the end I could be uninspired. I mean I may be misunderstanding this as well... Tell me if I'm off base
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 12:51 PM Post #3,388 of 5,483
I think its just a difficult thing to equate. Its like trying to describe "Musicality" to someone ha. To me completely dead neutral can boring and not my cup of tea. It could have gobs of "accuracy" but in the end I could be uninspired. I mean I may be misunderstanding this as well... Tell me if I'm off base

You are right dead neutral can be boring in some cases so you can either eq to modify the sound or get headphones with a different sound signature or get a tube amp to modify the sound with to your liking.
There are multiple ways of getting to your desired sound, but that doesn't mean it's objectively better.
That is all I'm saying.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 1:44 PM Post #3,389 of 5,483
You are right dead neutral can be boring in some cases so you can either eq to modify the sound or get headphones with a different sound signature or get a tube amp to modify the sound with to your liking.
There are multiple ways of getting to your desired sound, but that doesn't mean it's objectively better.
That is all I'm saying.

So far this is what is occurring to me with this headphone: if you have multiple DAC/amp combos, ss vs tubes, multiple tubes, etc I can see these HPs being great fun to dial in because they are (AFAIK) super accurate.

A bad analogy would be a canon 5d vs Fujifilm mirrorless: they're both very good professional level cameras, but the mirrorless allows you easy DSLR quality in a compact portable form, albeit with some disadvantages and lack of ultra perfect ability.

I'm still in my testing/burn-in phase with the Aeons, but I'm not sure they're going to work as I just don't have all of the equipment I'd need to truly enjoy them at their best.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 1:56 PM Post #3,390 of 5,483
I like tubes with the Aeon because they add texture to the Aeon's unblemished clarity, causing the mids and treble to take on a natural and more "organic" character, for lack of a better word.

I couldn't agree more. Adding a bit of warmth and character with a tube amp or even hybrid tube amp is how I prefer to listen to the Aeon.
I love them with:
Source > iFi micro iDSD BL > Project Ember II (Genalex Gold Lion E88CC)

I just went to a meet and tried them with a Woo Audio WA8 Eclipse and was very impressed. The WA8 gave the Aeon a lot of character to go along with their impressive clarity and detail. It's a pairing I'd highly recommend.
 

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