7Hz Impressions & Discussion
Jan 26, 2022 at 6:53 PM Post #1,816 of 4,271
Not familiar with iBasso’s offering unfortunately, but going tubes with the Timeless surely is an interesting option to consider, depending on one’s sound preferences. Do you have a DX300 I suppose? How is it? Do you have other sources?

Regarding the Timeless and SR25 MK2 (standalone), well, I stick to my previous statement a few pages back. It’s a great portable combo, I love it. Tried Jotunheim and Burson Playmate and yes, the extra portion of juice available made a small difference, but nothing like the C9 does. The Cayin hits you in the face with an effortless presentation. Bass, depth, soundstage, layering, but for me most importantly the mids are improved via the C9. This amp is a bit colored even in its most neutral setting and it does wonder with the Timeless.

Big disclaimer though: Honeymoon phase at its zenith going on and some might prefer a more neutral presentation, even without the aforementioned immediate improvements I have noticed at first listen.

Pretty certain the C9 already set another threshold in my mind for good, though.

Cannot wait for the weekend to get more time with this combo.
Oh sorry, yes I own the DX300 and they use replaceable amp cards in it. The current card is Amp12 and puts out 2amps and 2.4W blah, blah, blah... Needless to say it is (more or less) a class A amp. But they are making a new amp card (Amp13) which is a tube amp. I simply can't wait. I love S/S, but don't really have any sources that put out a decent warm signature. The other sources I have are the DX160, and oldschool Fiio DAPs (X5 OG, and X3II).
Yes, I've had 2 sets of IMR EDPs and regret selling them. The EDP is quite different from IMR house sound which tends to present the bass exquisitely without sacrificing the rest of the frequencies. On the EDP the star of the show is the mids through that planar. The mids on the EDP bridge the bass which has less impact than on timeless, but still quite satisfying none-the-less, and the treble. The new EDP Ace uses a completely different 10mm ADLC (amorphous diamond like costing) CNT (carbon nanotube) DD which should have more impact than the previous iteration + the same spectacular planar from the OG and adding BC (Bone conduction)
It will be a very different animal to the timeless. Where timeless uses a larger planar to do all the duties and it does them well, EDP ACE is a tribrid with all three drivers operation at full spectrum without cross over but each tuned to maximize its strength. The planar will take care of mids and Lower treble and the DD will take care of the bass & mid to upper treble. I've had 3 sets with BC and it fills in mids, reaches to the upper bass but more than anything brings a holographic effect that is difficult to describe. It will be a very unique iem to be sure.
WOW! the ACE sounds very interesting. I might have to check into them. I am not convinced that BC is ready for prime time but using it in conjunction with other drivers sounds like a great idea. So, why DID you get rid of your EDPs if you don't mind me asking?
 
Jan 26, 2022 at 7:12 PM Post #1,817 of 4,271
WOW! the ACE sounds very interesting. I might have to check into them. I am not convinced that BC is ready for prime time but using it in conjunction with other drivers sounds like a great idea. So, why DID you get rid of your EDPs if you don't mind me asking?
To finance the Elysium - which was also a planar Tri-brid and $1000 - in the end it it had too much overlap with my IMR RAH - Planar Tribrid. Rah stayed, Elysium went, EDP coming back!
 
Jan 26, 2022 at 7:28 PM Post #1,818 of 4,271
To finance the Elysium - which was also a planar Tri-brid and $1000 - in the end it it had too much overlap with my IMR RAH - Planar Tribrid. Rah stayed, Elysium went, EDP coming back!
IKR? I get very excited when there is a new planar around. I think my next might be the Hifiman Edition XS?

A touch less bass than the Timeless have, combined with the rest of the spectrum of the Tinhifi P1 would have made the P1 perfect (for me). Don't get me wrong, I really do love the Timeless, and they are staying in my collection, but they aren't the WOW I was looking for in the next planar IEM. I don't really have anything else in my collection with the tuning the Timeless have. On the other hand, they are just so fun to listen to. Most of my other stuff is closer to analytical sounding if not straight up analytical. When I am running out of the house, I tend to grab them up first... LOL
 
Jan 26, 2022 at 9:58 PM Post #1,819 of 4,271
So I gotta ask, I mean, you know that I need to ask right? What's your opinion about usage time, run-in time, or burn-in now? Have they improved with time used?

I am so confused. I think it was the tips, however I used those tips with @Rockwell75 ’s Timeless. I switched back to stock cable. I think I am going insane or burn in is a real thing.
 
Jan 26, 2022 at 10:00 PM Post #1,820 of 4,271
I am so confused. I think it was the tips, however I used those tips with @Rockwell75 ’s Timeless. I switched back to stock cable. I think I am going insane or burn in is a real thing.

Burn in is real but my experience suggests that for me it's mostly psychological. I guess I'm in the "most significant burn in is brain burn in" camp.

Edit: I'm kind of ambivalent about burn in for the most part and don't speak up about it very much. Where the battle lines get drawn for me is when it's insisted that I can't get a fundamental sense of an IEM or DAP's salient characteristics within the first few days because "dude it has to burn in for at least two weeks".
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 10:02 PM Post #1,821 of 4,271
I agree, I’m crazy.

Edit: I agree, but this time it was different.
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 10:46 PM Post #1,822 of 4,271
Burn in is real but my experience suggests that for me it's mostly psychological. I guess I'm in the "most significant burn in is brain burn in" camp.

Edit: I'm kind of ambivalent about burn in for the most part and don't speak up about it very much. Where the battle lines get drawn for me is when it's insisted that I can't get a fundamental sense of an IEM or DAP's salient characteristics within the first few days because "dude it has to burn in for at least two weeks".

I agree, I’m crazy.

Edit: I agree, but this time it was different.
I agree with both of you. I'm heading into my 8th Planar IEM and extended break in time is very real with every planar I've had. It varies with DD, non existant with BAs and does have some effect with Electrostatz in my experience. I can't validate this nor am I looking for any kind of recognition but I may be the one head fier that's gone through the highest number of planar IEMs. And they have all shifted through 300 hours with the greatest refining upto about 150....
 
Jan 27, 2022 at 12:50 PM Post #1,823 of 4,271
I agree with both of you. I'm heading into my 8th Planar IEM and extended break in time is very real with every planar I've had. It varies with DD, non existant with BAs and does have some effect with Electrostatz in my experience. I can't validate this nor am I looking for any kind of recognition but I may be the one head fier that's gone through the highest number of planar IEMs. And they have all shifted through 300 hours with the greatest refining upto about 150....
Hello Holsen,

Can you help educate me on planar bass vs. dynamic driver bass?

First, either my brain or these IEMs changed quite a lot over the approx 75 hours of burnin thus far. The bass is better, and a sense of hotness in the treble has diminished some.

Second, when I received the Timeless, I was looking for a bass oriented IEM like the Mele, but with more sense of detail and space though the upper mids... and if possible, very slightly more real cymbals playback, esp. decay, than the Mele was giving me, without being sibiliant or irritating. If I can say, something like the Drop/Senn HD58x, which is to me the best about the HD600 and HD650 if they had a baby.

When I listen through the Timeless, I *hear* the same amount of bass as with the MELE (and with much more texture and tonality), but the physical sensation of feeling that bass is different, I *feel* less of the bass impact. That kind of impact you get in a club where the bass hits you in the chest and forms the basis of the beat. I really like feeling the MELE bass in my ear canal. I am not so much asking about bass texture and tonality as I am about feeling the bass impact. The funny thing is the Timeless and MELE graph almost identically from 600Hz down to about 80Hz, then the Mele is about 2db more under that. When adding 2-3 db to the Timeless at 60Hz and 32Hz, I hear more Timeless bass, but don't *feel* it any more than before adding db. If I ask at that point do I hear the same amount of bass energy in the Timeless and Mele, I would say yes. But the impact just isn't the same.

So my question is, does dynamic driver bass provide more bass feel (impact, thump) than planar drivers, even when the graphing shows they *should* be identical? This may be important... I am only driving IEMs out of iPhone dongle or MB Air M1 headphone jack.
 
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Jan 27, 2022 at 8:44 PM Post #1,824 of 4,271
Hello Holsen,

Can you help educate me on planar bass vs. dynamic driver bass?

First, either my brain or these IEMs changed quite a lot over the approx 75 hours of burnin thus far. The bass is better, and a sense of hotness in the treble has diminished some.

Second, when I received the Timeless, I was looking for a bass oriented IEM like the Mele, but with more sense of detail and space though the upper mids... and if possible, very slightly more real cymbals playback, esp. decay, than the Mele was giving me, without being sibiliant or irritating. If I can say, something like the Drop/Senn HD58x, which is to me the best about the HD600 and HD650 if they had a baby.

When I listen through the Timeless, I *hear* the same amount of bass as with the MELE (and with much more texture and tonality), but the physical sensation of feeling that bass is different, I *feel* less of the bass impact. That kind of impact you get in a club where the bass hits you in the chest and forms the basis of the beat. I really like feeling the MELE bass in my ear canal. I am not so much asking about bass texture and tonality as I am about feeling the bass impact. The funny thing is the Timeless and MELE graph almost identically from 600Hz down to about 80Hz, then the Mele is about 2db more under that. When adding 2-3 db to the Timeless at 60Hz and 32Hz, I hear more Timeless bass, but don't *feel* it any more than before adding db. If I ask at that point do I hear the same amount of bass energy in the Timeless and Mele, I would say yes. But the impact just isn't the same.

So my question is, does dynamic driver bass provide more bass feel (impact, thump) than planar drivers, even when the graphing shows they *should* be identical? This may be important... I am only driving IEMs out of iPhone dongle or MB Air M1 headphone jack.
Hello @DunninLA

I'm delighted to contribute to your understanding, as I understand it.
First, either my brain or these IEMs changed quite a lot over the approx 75 hours of burnin thus far. The bass is better, and a sense of hotness in the treble has diminished some.
I don't think your brain changed. I mean, I do believe in brain burn, but for me it just means that when I switch from one IEM to another that I've been enjoying for a while I have to sit patiently with the most recently inserted unit to begin to enjoy its properties because often the sound profiles are so contrasted to one another, that I don't enjoy the new one until my brain adjusts and i begin to really pull out the qualities of the new one. I'm experiencing that right now with the UM 3DT. It has a lesser quantity of bass to the the Timeless but it is more visceral (we'll talk about that in a minute). The 3DT also has more treble extension and airiness to it, which to my ears made it appear more sibilant until I had them in a good 20 minutes and then I began to re-realize why I liked them so much and kept them. They are more V than the timeless where I find the timeless more natural and organic sounding. LOVE 'em both. If you go back and read my initial impressions and that of others where the Timeless discussion overtook this thread, you'll see that I predicted that those users who founf them sibilant, just need to be patient and let them break in - both the bass and the treble will develop. way past 150 hours with greatest shift upto 100. By and large, I think thats been experience of the users here. I've danced with these drivers a few times.
So my question is, does dynamic driver bass provide more bass feel (impact, thump) than planar drivers, even when the graphing shows they *should* be identical? This may be important... I am only driving IEMs out of iPhone dongle or MB Air M1 headphone jack.
So the answer to this question lies in understanding the tech behind each type of driver and how they function. The WAY a DD and Planar produce their sound waves are entirely different and therefore they can graph the same but each move a different quantity of air and therefore you'll experience them differently. Graphs for me simply give me an indication of direction but I don't make assessments off them. So many factors affect the the final experience. Tech, material, stiffness, size of driver .... they the graphing unit only picks up FR it's doesn't account for any of the other factors.
If you've ever taken a speaker grill off and looked at the woofer inside the speaker where there's a magnet and a coil attached to a cone and the electrical impulse hits the coil to move the dome - resulting in frequencies and air pushing out from the dome. A DD is essentially a miniaturized Dome speaker - it moves more air while producing it's sound waves. The size of the DD and the material it's made of (stiffness will then have a knock on effect to things like speed and decay. It's also why many DDs, particularly those with stiff coatings (Beryllium, Graphene, etc.) benefit from break in. As they beggin to get used, they break-in and fully develop.

A Planar on the other hand is a flat stiff membrane with an electrical circuit on it literllally suspended between two magnetic fields. The electricity hits the circuit and the membrane vibrates between the magnetic fields (I'm simplifying it a bit but this is how it goes) Because it's stiff plane of material between 2 magnets (hence the name planar) it vibrates across its entire surface area unlike a DD which is attached to casing that surround the dome and the magnet to which is it anchored. This is how planars are renowned for their speed and accuracy. They are precise. But they have less lateral movement than with a DD which is why you can have IEMs producing a similar frequency and even a similar quantity / quality of bass. The DD you will feel it because it's moving more air. The planar you will experience the precision and decay but you wont get the same visceral oomph of the volume of air. Timeless is the largest planar in my IEM stable and it has more bass slam than the others for that reason but it just doesn't move the same air as a DD.

I hope that makes sense and is helpful in some way.
 
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Jan 27, 2022 at 9:19 PM Post #1,826 of 4,271
This iem isn't good at all for classical and it has gone up for sale
 
Jan 27, 2022 at 10:00 PM Post #1,827 of 4,271
Hello @DunninLA

I'm delighted to contribute to your understanding, as I understand it.

I don't think your brain changed. I mean, I do believe in brain burn, but for me it just means that when I switch from one IEM to another that I've been enjoying for a while I have to sit patiently with the most recently inserted unit to begin to enjoy its properties because often the sound profiles are so contrasted to one another, that I don't enjoy the new one until my brain adjusts and i begin to really pull out the qualities of the new one. I'm experiencing that right now with the UM 3DT. It has a lesser quantity of bass to the the Timeless but it is more visceral (we'll talk about that in a minute). The 3DT also has more treble extension and airiness to it, which to my ears made it appear more sibilant until I had them in a good 20 minutes and then I began to re-realize why I liked them so much and kept them. They are more V than the timeless where I find the timeless more natural and organic sounding. LOVE 'em both. If you go back and read my initial impressions and that of others where the Timeless discussion overtook this thread, you'll see that I predicted that those users who founf them sibilant, just need to be patient and let them break in - both the bass and the treble will develop. way past 150 hours with greatest shift upto 100. By and large, I think thats been experience of the users here. I've danced with these drivers a few times.

So the answer to this question lies in understanding the tech behind each type of driver and how they function. The WAY a DD and Planar produce their sound waves are entirely different and therefore they can graph the same but each move a different quantity of air and therefore you'll experience them differently. Graphs for me simply give me an indication of direction but I don't make assessments off them. So many factors affect the the final experience. Tech, material, stiffness, size of driver .... they the graphing unit only picks up FR it's doesn't account for any of the other factors.
If you've ever taken a speaker grill off and looked at the woofer inside the speaker where there's a magnet and a coil attached to a cone and the electrical impulse hits the coil to move the dome - resulting in frequencies and air pushing out from the dome. A DD is essentially a miniaturized Dome speaker - it moves more air while producing it's sound waves. The size of the DD and the material it's made of (stiffness will then have a knock on effect to things like speed and decay. It's also why many DDs, particularly those with stiff coatings (Beryllium, Graphene, etc.) benefit from break in. As they beggin to get used, they break-in and fully develop.

A Planar on the other hand is a flat stiff membrane with an electrical circuit on it literllally suspended between two magnetic fields. The electricity hits the circuit and the membrane vibrates between the magnetic fields (I'm simplifying it a bit but this is how it goes) Because it's stiff plane of material between 2 magnets (hence the name planar) it vibrates across its entire surface area unlike a DD which is attached to casing that surround the dome and the magnet to which is it anchored. This is how planars are renowned for their speed and accuracy. They are precise. But they have less lateral movement than with a DD which is why you can have IEMs producing a similar frequency and even a similar quantity / quality of bass. The DD you will feel it because it's moving more air. The planar you will experience the precision and decay but you wont get the same visceral oomph of the volume of air. Timeless is the largest planar in my IEM stable and it has more bass slam than the others for that reason but it just doesn't move the same air as a DD.

I hope that makes sense and is helpful in some way.
Well, that was a better education than I could have hoped for. Thank you.

So, now I think I understand why I experience those two bass regions differently between the Timeless and the Mele, which has a graphene DD. I think in the end I'm going to keep both. After a while listening to the Timeless I feel more immersed into the sound, but my foot taps less, and switching to the mele my foot taps more but the music seems flatter and less dimensional in comparison.
 
Jan 28, 2022 at 12:59 AM Post #1,828 of 4,271
Jan 28, 2022 at 3:26 PM Post #1,829 of 4,271
Any suggestions for ear tips that doesn't bury the bass?

The stock eartips have tiny bores that putting them on is next to impossible. The ones I were able to get in (including the default white with black stem and white with yellow stem) were mostly on the bright side without much bass.

I've tried the SednaEarfit and it doesn't go deep enough to get a good seal so not only do I lose out on everything, I had to adjust the volume by 10-20% than when I got the stock tips. Or maybe I sized wrong because I bought the small one.
 
Jan 28, 2022 at 3:43 PM Post #1,830 of 4,271
Any suggestions for ear tips that doesn't bury the bass?

The stock eartips have tiny bores that putting them on is next to impossible. The ones I were able to get in (including the default white with black stem and white with yellow stem) were mostly on the bright side without much bass.

I've tried the SednaEarfit and it doesn't go deep enough to get a good seal so not only do I lose out on everything, I had to adjust the volume by 10-20% than when I got the stock tips. Or maybe I sized wrong because I bought the small one.
Large silicon tips (Xcessor or noname) or foam tips.
 

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