[DocSkeekmo]

Fantastic work. Usually we only see this kind of thing from members who have been here years, and spread across many reviews and impressions posts, so it's great to read it all in one place.

There were some weird things, like HD800s with no sub bass? I can only imagine that happening if you had plugged them into an amp with poor voltage swing.

With regards to "neutral" we consider that to be "flat". I'm not sure what kind of listening room and speakers you have, but maybe the speaker equivalent would be something from Wilson in a fully treated and damped room. I have noticed that speaker listeners tend to go more for something like the TH900s or a similar pair of headphones that have more bass than is technically neutral.

I'm not sure how to answer except to say that my 2 channel listening room was designed by 3 acoustic engineers, has been treated extensively with just right amount of absorption and diffusion (but not over treated) and is filled with some serious statement level gear. It's been measured and tuned and tweaked and is my pride and joy. CT and I are not fans of Wilson so I'll just leave that on the patio, but my speakers are full range and wonderful. I know what flat should sound like and I know proper bass and sub bass. Not bragging, just establishing my history. "Flat" for headphones is far from flat. Speakers in an anechoic chamber are flat. No measurement curve targeted by any headphone manufacturer is flat and they all don't even use the same target curves..... Therefore, by definition, it is somewhat subjective; or objective with opinions. Lol.

The HD800's have sub bass, but it's minimal. I did not tweak them at all; so that will obviously have an affect. I listed my amps and openly agree that my amp selection may not be top tier and I'm sure my decision to avoid balanced to keep things equal didn't let some cans put their best foot forward. But I tried to compare apples to apples. And I reported what I heard.

TH 900 is over stated down below and too bright up top. It's fun and dynamic but reminds me of Avantgarde horn speakers.

 

[abvolt]

Really enjoyed your write up and opinions on so many different pieces of audio gear, bet it was fun..enjoy

 

[TimeLord]

Great effort digging into so many units to get to an answer. However, it wasn't clear to me what your end goal is. I understand you're looking for tonally correct and neutral headphones, but does the use case require them to be closed-back? You seem to imply that at times, but you also reviewed many open-back headphones. You also indicated the use appears to be for different rooms within the home, but will you also use them outside the home?

I'm trying to get a sense of the choice of amplification and DAC you used for the test. Since you're coming from a well-thought out speaker setup, you understand how much the upstream gear affects the speakers and in this case the headphones. In order to determine whether a headphone is tonally accurate or neutral, I would suggest making sure the DAC and amp you're using to evaluate them also have those qualities.

With respect to whether balanced or unbalanced sounds better, it is less dependent on headphones and more so on the architecture of the amplifier. For example, a headphone connected to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amplifier sounds much better through the balanced output than it does through single-ended; it's a matter of the amp's circuitry. None of this is meant to discount the benefits of a balanced architecture, but for those benefits to be realized, a specific set of problems must exist.

For what it's worth, I have yet to find a closed-back pair of headphones that I'm content with (if this is your goal). I am currently using the MrSpeakers ÆON, but I'm still looking for something better. Alternatively, I also use a Shure SE-846; you would not find these neutral.

Good luck with the search.

 

[DocSkeekmo]

Great effort digging into so many units to get to an answer. However, it wasn't clear to me what your end goal is. I understand you're looking for tonally correct and neutral headphones, but does the use case require them to be closed-back? You seem to imply that at times, but you also reviewed many open-back headphones. You also indicated the use appears to be for different rooms within the home, but will you also use them outside the home?

I'm trying to get a sense of the choice of amplification and DAC you used for the test. Since you're coming from a well-thought out speaker setup, you understand how much the upstream gear affects the speakers and in this case the headphones. In order to determine whether a headphone is tonally accurate or neutral, I would suggest making sure the DAC and amp you're using to evaluate them also have those qualities.

With respect to whether balanced or unbalanced sounds better, it is less dependent on headphones and more so on the architecture of the amplifier. For example, a headphone connected to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amplifier sounds much better through the balanced output than it does through single-ended; it's a matter of the amp's circuitry. None of this is meant to discount the benefits of a balanced architecture, but for those benefits to be realized, a specific set of problems must exist.

For what it's worth, I have yet to find a closed-back pair of headphones that I'm content with (if this is your goal). I am currently using the MrSpeakers ÆON, but I'm still looking for something better. Alternatively, I also use a Shure SE-846; you would not find these neutral.

Good luck with the search.

Timelord, thank you for your very well thought response. You are a 100% correct on every statement. And my apologies on not properly defining my goals.

My intention is to find 2 pairs of headphones. One open and the best I can find, period. One closed and the best I can find, period. Lol. The closed are to be used while traveling and out in any public local so I can listen and both not be disturbed by my surroundings and not disturb others. For that purpose, I have ordered a Hugo 2 (just sold the Mojo) and plan on comparing my iPhone with a Hugo 2 against a dedicated dap like the Pioneer XDP-300r, Fiio X5 v3, Fiio X7 mk2, Onkyo dp-x1a, IBasso DX200. That will be my portable rig.

My open headphone system is still not standard desktop orthodox. I have my dedicated 2 channel room in my house. So if I want to listen to the best I have access to, I go there. So what am I doing with my open cans?!? Well, I'm still not sure. Lol. My intention is to use them at home when up in my sitting room in my bedroom, or out in my backyard relaxing by the fireplace. So I STILL require a portable source for that.

So as much as I want to get myself an amazing DAC and a Cavalli amp, HeadAmp GSX or top tier Woo to provide a killer source, I just can't think of a place that it would get used. Even at my office I have a nice 2 channel system.....

So to answer your question, both my final open and closed headphone will most likely be powered by the same source: either an iPhone/Hugo 2 or an awesome dap with or without a headphone amp.

Your balanced comments also make perfect sense. I know I will end up using balanced in almost every scenario (except the Hugo2 as I don't think it does balanced). Since most DAP's these days offer balanced outputs and sound great with them.

Thanks for the post. It brought up some awesome points!!

 

[vulcanprime]

I really enjoyed your post. Wondering if you got a chance to listen to the ZMF atticus?

 

[DocSkeekmo]

I really enjoyed your post. Wondering if you got a chance to listen to the ZMF atticus?

Apologies VulcanPrime. But I have not. When I went to the Head-Fi meet in Long Island I listened to tons of cans. But I focused on the Blackwood, Ori (and Eikon). My next opportunity to sit at Zach's table will include a more extensive listen to the Eikon and Atticus since I now own both a Blackwood and Oris (Oris inbound very shortly).

 

[TimeLord]

My intention is to find 2 pairs of headphones. One open and the best I can find, period. One closed and the best I can find, period. Lol. The closed are to be used while traveling and out in any public local so I can listen and both not be disturbed by my surroundings and not disturb others. For that purpose, I have ordered a Hugo 2 (just sold the Mojo) and plan on comparing my iPhone with a Hugo 2 against a dedicated dap like the Pioneer XDP-300r, Fiio X5 v3, Fiio X7 mk2, Onkyo dp-x1a, IBasso DX200. That will be my portable rig.

You have certainly set the bar high with your intention. Since you're looking for the best you can find, let me state the best that I have found:

The Focal Utopia is the unquestionable best that I have found. For my use case, I am using Cavalli's Liquid Gold with the Holo Audio Spring Kitsune Tuned Edition (Level 3) along with the Singxer SU-1. However, this is not mobile. Keeping the Utopia, you can modify the DAC/amp to the Sony NW-WM1Z which you can connect balanced through the new 4.4 mm connector. The Sony is a good player, but it doesn't have functions like Tidal playback and it is expensive for a DAP. If those aren't an issue for you, then this could be the solution you're after for open-back headphones.

As for closed-back, I'm sorry to report I have yet to find a TOTL solution. Lately, I have enjoyed the hearing the Eikon, but I consider that semi closed-back since it has multiple ports which reduce its isolation capabilities (more so for allowing sound out). As I mentioned earlier, the ÆON is my current closed-back.

As for DAPs you listed, while I have heard several of them, the only one I can provide meaningful comments on is the iBasso DX-200. I found its interface to be clunky and not very responsive and its sound is lacking in detail retrieval and if I recall correctly, it tended to have a warmer presentation. In short, it didn't perform well enough for me.

Where I have settled (for now) for on-the-go usage is a Chord Mojo for the DAC with a Sony PHA-3 as an amp. It requires stacking and therefore is less than ideal, but the combination of the two is better than each device on its own.

 

[DocSkeekmo]

The Focal Utopia is the unquestionable best that I have found. For my use case, I am using Cavalli's Liquid Gold with the Holo Audio Spring Kitsune Tuned Edition (Level 3) along with the Singxer SU-1. However, this is not mobile. Keeping the Utopia, you can modify the DAC/amp to the Sony NW-WM1Z which you can connect balanced through the new 4.4 mm connector. The Sony is a good player, but it doesn't have functions like Tidal playback and it is expensive for a DAP. If those aren't an issue for you, then this could be the solution you're after for open-back headphones.

As for closed-back, I'm sorry to report I have yet to find a TOTL solution. Lately, I have enjoyed the hearing the Eikon, but I consider that semi closed-back since it has multiple ports which reduce its isolation capabilities (more so for allowing sound out). As I mentioned earlier, the ÆON is my current closed-back.

Where I have settled (for now) for on-the-go usage is a Chord Mojo for the DAC with a Sony PHA-3 as an amp. It requires stacking and therefore is less than ideal, but the combination of the two is better than each device on its own.

I want Tidal, so that's a must for a dap.

Have you heard the Ether Flow C along with the Aeon? I have been hearing several who prefer The Aeon over the EF C....

I love ZMF products. I don't know how they would perform on a plane or other loud venue though. I will try them and report. I have the Blackwoods and my Oris's are due any day.

My Hugo2 is due in next week. I will report on that when it arrives. Sadly, I don't think it has any balanced out. Goal is to compare iPhone/Hugo2 with and without portable amp vs DAP.

Also going to buy 2 daps To conduct this comparison. Leaning towards the fiio and onkyo I mentioned previously. I think $800- for a cap is reasonable unless someone tells me a $2-3k player sounds WAY better. I have high expectations of the Hugo 2/iPhone combo.

 

[Levanter]

I'm not sure how to answer except to say that my 2 channel listening room was designed by 3 acoustic engineers, has been treated extensively with just right amount of absorption and diffusion (but not over treated) and is filled with some serious statement level gear. It's been measured and tuned and tweaked and is my pride and joy. CT and I are not fans of Wilson so I'll just leave that on the patio, but my speakers are full range and wonderful. I know what flat should sound like and I know proper bass and sub bass. Not bragging, just establishing my history. "Flat" for headphones is far from flat. Speakers in an anechoic chamber are flat. No measurement curve targeted by any headphone manufacturer is flat and they all don't even use the same target curves..... Therefore, by definition, it is somewhat subjective; or objective with opinions. Lol.

The HD800's have sub bass, but it's minimal. I did not tweak them at all; so that will obviously have an affect. I listed my amps and openly agree that my amp selection may not be top tier and I'm sure my decision to avoid balanced to keep things equal didn't let some cans put their best foot forward. But I tried to compare apples to apples. And I reported what I heard.

TH 900 is over stated down below and too bright up top. It's fun and dynamic but reminds me of Avantgarde horn speakers.

HD800S has more sub bass than HD650 & HD600, surprised you were hung up on that for the 800S but less so on the 600/650

 

[DocSkeekmo]

HD800S has more sub bass than HD650 & HD600, surprised you were hung up on that for the 800S but less so on the 600/650

I totally agree. And I admit I may have highlighted it more with the 800s. I think because the balance towards high frequency was tipped more for the 800s so it stood out more to me. But all 3 are sub bass "gentle" as it were. That said, all three are exceptional headphones and worthy of top contention to many ears. When I listen, the gestalt takes over and I try to see a big picture as opposed to Sub/Low/mid/high. It's just easy to explain a can that way. But if done properly, the tonal image can be beautiful even if it lacks some emphasis in certain ranges. In fact, some cans sound BETTER and more complete that way....

I'm just sayin' it as I hear it. Lol.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Thanks for posting this, I love real world comparisons of various headphones. I find it useful when someone says something like "the sub bass is less than headphone____ but the treble is brighter than headphone______" or whatever the comparison.......I think that gives me a clearer picture of what you are trying to convey about how things sound.
You and I have different budget/priorities when it comes to this hobby, I will probably never spend more than a couple of hundred on a set of headphones, but we do have one set of cans in common. I was really glad to see you write so favorably about the Philips 9500s. My current favorite open cans are my 9500s with NVX pleathers. It's gratifying to see it in such high priced company and being compared favorably. Once you receive your HD 6xx I think a lot of people would like to see a head to head comparison between the two.

 

[DocSkeekmo]

Thanks for posting this, I love real world comparisons of various headphones. I find it useful when someone says something like "the sub bass is less than headphone____ but the treble is brighter than headphone______" or whatever the comparison.......I think that gives me a clearer picture of what you are trying to convey about how things sound.
You and I have different budget/priorities when it comes to this hobby, I will probably never spend more than a couple of hundred on a set of headphones, but we do have one set of cans in common. I was really glad to see you write so favorably about the Philips 9500s. My current favorite open cans are my 9500s with NVX pleathers. It's gratifying to see it in such high priced company and being compared favorably. Once you receive your HD 6xx I think a lot of people would like to see a head to head comparison between the two.

Thanks. Consider the R70x, its excellent!

HD6XX is a MassDrop special HD650, which is in my list. Take a look. The HD6XX is a crazy good deal!!

 

[DocSkeekmo]

ZMF Oris Boccote in the house, and the Emu Teak. Comparing with the others here: ZMF Blackwoods, Mr. Speakers Ether Flow open and the Kennerton Odin. Not a bad pile of cans; and some stiff competition.

Burning them in overnight. First impressions are that the Oris is the Blackwood with tighter bass and more finesse. The Emu Teak may be my favorite of all of the models in this family. It doesn't have the overly brittle highs of the 900 and the bass is more taught then the PurpleHeart. It's still a tad flubby, especially compared to the ZMF, Ether flow and Odin's.

The Mr. Speakers Ether Flow can't touch the natural timbres and reproductions of a cello and french horn that the ZMF and Odin reproduce. I just LOVE how comfortable and light they are though!!!! FAR AND AWAY THE BEST FORM FACTOR AND UBER QUALITY!!!! I wish their sound was more to my liking. They are awesome, just not for my needs. I want to hear the Aeon!

So far, I see the Oris and the Odin fighting it out. But the Blackwoods have their moments as well. The Odin is equally well built, but SO heavy. But they sound SO good!!!

I'll report in more detail once the Oris and Teak have 48-70 hours on them.

 

[Monsterzero]

Good stuff in this thread,thanks for taking the time(and dropping the coin)to get it all together.

Curious to see what your Atticus vs. Odin impressions are.I know you dont have an Atticus,but one can hope.

 

[DocSkeekmo]

I don't have th Atticus. But I have the Oris and the Blackwood. I am letting the Oris burn in for about a week. Then I'll compare.