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REVIEW: The Frogbeats C4...an explosively good custom in ear monitor....SERIOUSLY! - Page 17  

post #241 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by HideousPride View Post

Under important must read notes:

 

"The IEM measurements coming up may be subject to change. I'm still working on a few things to refine the process. There is one important thing that folks should note: the FR graphs will not extend past 9kHz because that's the point where I feel the measurements will be misleading. The IEM measurement couplers tend to produce their own resonances and peaks between 9-14kHz. Such nonsensical information will not be posted because it only causes more harm than good. Heck, even the documentation on some of the commercial couplers state they are not accurate past a certain point."

Thanks for the clarification. However, on full sized headphones the measurements contain information above 9k and that caused the confusion.


Edited by tumburu - 11/13/12 at 7:46am
post #242 of 255

I will be a first time CIEM buyer, and the reason I am looking into it is because I seem to have a finnicky head. Clamping preasure, headband padding, and pad depth all affect me too much - but with a CIEM I would have none of the issues.

 

As a first time CIEM hopeful - what can  expect from these out of different devices? (ie: An ipod touch, a laptop, etc)

post #243 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRSxIgnition View Post

I will be a first time CIEM buyer, and the reason I am looking into it is because I seem to have a finnicky head. Clamping preasure, headband padding, and pad depth all affect me too much - but with a CIEM I would have none of the issues.

 

As a first time CIEM hopeful - what can  expect from these out of different devices? (ie: An ipod touch, a laptop, etc)

 

As for what to expect, I can't address the specific details of the C4, but I do own some CIEMs (1964 V.3s) and have listened to lots of UIEMs, working my way up to Etymotic ER-4P and VSonic GR-07 mkII.  One of my sources is a 4th Gen iPod Touch.  I found that as I moved up in quality IEMs I started wanting a little more out of my iPod.  As a result I bought an amp, and then a high quality line-out dock cable.  Frankly, I think the combination is what drove me to  the V.3s.  As I started hearing more and more detail, I got greedy :)

 

Specifically, I found the iPod alone didn't provide as coherent a sound stage.  For example, after upgrading listening to Ray LaMontagne's 'Trouble' I noticed that the instruments move toward the end of the song.  It's almost like they're playing on a turntable and it rotates,  moving the instruments in relation to each other., I also noticed  more sibilance on many tracks.  A perfect (extreme) example is Sting's version of Little Wing.  And there's also just the pure level of detail.  i can now actually understand the mumbling during the intro at the beginning of Pink Floyds 'Wish You Were Here' track from the album of the same name.  There's also a subtle inhalation on the left channel just before the guitar picks up that I had never heard before.

 

Another thing is that i noticed  the poor quality recordings in my collection  As a result I've done a ton of re-ripping.   Most of my 64gb iPhone is full of Apple Lossless.  And the rest are basically alll 320kbps mp3s.

 

Here's the problem though:  I  can't really  say which of the various improvements I've made (better recordings, better cabling/using the line-out dock, getting an amp, and headphone upgrades had made the biggest difference.

 

I will say that since I got my Vamp I really don't listen to my iPod very much.  Finally, as for listening on my laptop, I just really don't do it at all.  I've got a relatively low-end Dell which cost about the same as my V.3s, and I don't feel like its audio output is nearly as good as the output directly from my iPod, let alone either of my amped rigs.  I suppose I could start investing in a whole other round of enhancements to fix that, but to what point.  I guess to  have  a lot more room for tracks.  But really 64gig is lots.  I'm not full yet, and I could free up  a lot more space by getting rid of a lot of redundant files (how many copies of 'Dark Star' do I really need?)

 

I hope this ramble helps you.

post #244 of 255

Thank you for the clarifications - but I may buy an amp someday in the future if I get these. I prefer low bulk in my pocket, but if it's needed, I'll consider it.

 

Just so I can know for sure, do you think these would be worth it for me to be in the group buy after reading what I was previously looking for?  I have to sell my V-MODA M-100, and cancel my order on the AKG K267 Tiestos to get these - would you consider it worth it?

 

In regards to source and such, I would use my iPod Touch 5G coupled with mostly 320kbps MP3 files most of the time - otherwise it would be from my laptop. A lot of the music I listen to is never uploaded in FLAC - so I can only use it when I get lucky on an album. Either way - I have tested myself, and I can barely - if even - tell the difference between FLAC and MP3 @ 320kbps.

 

I've been looking for headphones for a few months now - and it's starting to distract me from college and such. I just want something that sounds amazing, and is comfortable. CIEM's seem like they've got that.

 

Should I make the plunge?

post #245 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRSxIgnition View Post

 

Just so I can know for sure, do you think these would be worth it for me to be in the group buy after reading what I was previously looking for?  I have to sell my V-MODA M-100, and cancel my order on the AKG K267 Tiestos to get these - would you consider it worth it?

 

Should I make the plunge?

Worth is a completely subjective term. So that's a bit daunting.

 

Do note that custom IEMs are not like universal ones - if they are not to your liking, expect an extremely significant loss if you try to resell them. There is also the danger that your impressions are not done by the audiologist correctly. Insist they read and follow the exact directions given by Frogbeats. If the CIEMs come and don't fit, you're in for a world of hurt as you have to undergo the entire process again.

 

That being said, my foray into the IEM world has been very pleasant thus far. The universal 4.Ai had great comfort after tip rolling, amazing isolation, the best portability, and a decent sound signature to boot. The main things they lacked were soundstage and realism, and the C4 sounds like it has those in spades, so I decided to take the leap of faith after Luis' review.

 

It's a risk. Hundreds of dollars of loss if it turns out to be a disappointment to you, but a huge gain and quite a savings in money if you decide to go into top-tier IEMs immediately as opposed to slowly buying medicore ones and working your way up.

 

Risk vs. Reward. How risk loving are you? 

post #246 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by HideousPride View Post

It's a risk. Hundreds of dollars of loss if it turns out to be a disappointment to you, but a huge gain and quite a savings in money if you decide to go into top-tier IEMs immediately as opposed to slowly buying medicore ones and working your way up.

 

Risk vs. Reward. How risk loving are you? 

Are the chances high that they will mess up..? I haven't heard many horror stories - and don't they have a 30 day refitting policy if they're not comfortable?

post #247 of 255

All the companies have a refit window in place, the only 'extra' risk involved is cost of shipping + wait time when shipping to and from Europe.

post #248 of 255

From the Terms of Service:

 

Quote:
Group Buys can not be promoted on Head-Fi's Main Forums, or via Head-Fi's Private Messaging, without first receiving authorization from Jude via Head-Fi Private Messaging or e-mail. Please note, though, that it is not our desire to see Group Buys used by Members of the Trade as a primary method of distribution and advertising on Head-Fi's forums--so, for this and other reasons, they are usually not approved. Exceptions may be made on a case-by-case basis, and most often for DIY-related parts that might otherwise be unreasonably difficult to obtain.

 

Please understand that this is not for discussion here. 

post #249 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

From the Terms of Service:


Please understand that this is not for discussion here. 

I wish that someone would explain the rules. I have seen group buys before here on head-Fi and not just on do it yourself or parts. I seem to remember at least one if not more Unique Melody group buy one that had a lucky 25 people. Will one of the admins please explain the difference. I am sure a lot of members are curious. It seems like there may be some partiality, I assume this is not the case.
post #250 of 255

The unique melody buy was different as that was in the premium sponsor forum.  Frogbeats is not a premium sponsor.  

post #251 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio_head View Post

The unique melody buy was different as that was in the premium sponsor forum.  Frogbeats is not a premium sponsor.  

 

 Exactly. Group buys are allowed once a vendor obtains sufficient privileges to have their own forum section, and then only in that forum section.

 


Quote:
Group Buys can not be promoted on Head-Fi's Main Forums, or via Head-Fi's Private Messaging, without first receiving authorization from Jude via Head-Fi Private Messaging or e-mail. Please note, though, that it is not our desire to see Group Buys used by Members of the Trade as a primary method of distribution and advertising on Head-Fi's forums--so, for this and other reasons, they are usually not approved. Exceptions may be made on a case-by-case basis, and most often for DIY-related parts that might otherwise be unreasonably difficult to obtain.

 

post #252 of 255

Don't the Head-fi community benefit from group buys?

post #253 of 255

LFF, if you get the chance, please listen to the C4s with a DX100. I'd be interested to know how they pair-up (I suspect rather well, owing to the DX100 having a very spacious presentation with lots of space around instruments, along with good imaging). The DX100 works superbly with UM Miracles, and judging by your description of the C4, it sounds quite similar in character to the Miracle.


Edited by Mython - 11/16/12 at 8:40pm
post #254 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post

Don't the Head-fi community benefit from group buys?

 

I guess that depends on what you mean by "...the Head-fi community..."  There's the mods and the owners who run the system.  There's the sponsors who presumably pay for the system, and there's the Head-fiers who provide the content which brings people here.  Which part are you referring to?  The people who run the system would benefit only marginally, presuming there's some small increase in traffic driven by folks seeking deals.  The sponsors are actually dis-benefitted if vendors who don't contribute to the cost of the system can come here and basically use the boards as a free sales channel.  This would tend to drive costs down, both through the normal notion of bulk buying power, and also through increased competition.  Perhaps the biggest barrier to entry into this market is the cost of creating brand awareness and the creation of a sales channel.  To the extent that new companies can appear here and generate sales, that barrier is lowered, creating more price competition.

 

And lest this appear to all be for 'the man' and against us little guys, there is real benefit to the customer to having an orderly marketplace.  If I can order a bunch of parts, build a few prototypes, get some good reviews and then generate hundreds of units of sales via some 'group buys' then it becomes easy for companies to appear, do a few runs, and then evaporate, leaving some very unhappy buyers behind with little or no recourse.

 

All that said, the current policy would seem to be somewhat heavy-handed, preventing willing buyers and sellers from openly transacting business.  Especially since the vendor in this case appears to be well-established/respected.  Nevertheless, that's the stated policy: we either live with it or move on, which is of course exactly what happened to discussion of the disapproved group buy.  It's the old 'vote with your feet' approach.

post #255 of 255

This is a copy of a PM response I sent regarding group buys:

 

 

Quote:

Years ago, we were more open to allowing group buys.  After one particular group buy, however, I changed the policy to what it is now.  Here's what happened in that group buy:

 

  • The group buy was for an in-ear headphone that was just being released (at the time).
  • The organizer of the group buy contacted one dealer, and asked for a group buy price.  That dealer responded with a group buy price.
  • The organizer then contacted a second dealer (and subsequent dealers) and worked to get the price lowered with each call.
  • If a dealer was willing to beat the current lowest price, then the organizer contacted the other dealers again to let them know.
  • To make a long story short, one of the dealers decided that, in order to prevent any one of his competitors from fulfilling the order, he was going to sell the headphone at a loss.  This is when I decided to change the policy, and told the group buy organizer there would be no group buy for this product on Head-Fi.

 

Why?  In case the reasons are not yet obvious, my reasons included (but were not limited to) the following:
 

  • I saw it as abusive (even though the organizer obviously had no intent to be abusive).  In having a dealer sell an item at a loss to secure the deal is to tell that dealer--for the cost and risk of acquiring the product in question, packaging it all up, shipping it all out, answering questions and servicing customers, and dealing with subsequent returns--that his services and support were not only worth little to nothing, but that they'd actually have to lose money, and, thus, pay for the privilege.  This, to me, is predatory.  (Of course, I am definitely not suggesting that being predatory is your intent, or that it would necessarily be the outcome here, only that group buys--depending on how they are arranged--can be predatory, whether by intention or not.)
  • Just about every product that this community might have strong interest in could be had cheaper if we allowed group buys.  So where does one draw the line?  To me, the fairest line was (and still is, in my opinion) to simply not allow them, unless absolutely necessary.  I do not think that muscling dealers into cutting their margins to wafer-thin levels (or worse, taking a loss) for the sake of having one dealer monopolizing the sale of a particular product to this community is healthy for the ecosystem we have here.
  • As a community, there has to be at least some support for the dealers who will be here for the long haul--dealers who are regularly picking up good lines and daring products specific to our hobby to sell and service.  I don't want to promote a dealer's monopoly of an item's sale to this community who may be doing it as a purely mercenary, one-time measure.  For example, I'm not even familiar with the dealer in question, nor do I see them mentioned regularly here by the community.
  • I do not want to see group buys used by companies as a primary method of distribution and advertising on Head-Fi's forums.

 

One of the members of the trade in this thread messaged me and said this:

 

Quote:
...it saddens me to see that HeadFi does nothing to help or to aid smaller companies trying to generate attention.

 

 

Ask smeggy if he'd agree with that. He is a longtime member who got into DIY headphone mods--our community expert for a long time on Fostex T50rp mods, with his "Thunderpants" mod.

 

He has never advertised here, nor have I ever expected him to. I bought a Thunderpants headphone from him for the same price everyone else paid. I posted a video about it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPLAkehj8d8

 

That video ended up on the homepage of Head-Fi. It was then posted on the homepage of Gizmodo.

 

I approved a group buy for those headphones. Here's the group buy thread. I suggest for anyone interested that they read it from beginning to end.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/572793/thunderpants-t50rp-mod-group-buy

 

Another member had a successful business he built here (at least as far as I could tell he was doing well). I believe his cables were ranked #1 here in this category (before we deleted it, after many reported problems):

 

http://www.head-fi.org/products/category/headphone-cables

 

Now read his feedback thread:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/546938/apuresound-complaint-thread-customers-with-outstanding-items-or-money-only

 

Again, just about any product discussed on Head-Fi could be organized into group buys. For the most part, we do not allow group buys here.

 

As Currawong said earlier, this is currently not up for discussion.

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