[DitheringFool]

Exactly right. Tube amps are not typically described by standard amplifier metrics. It can be daunting just to find the power output specs for a given tube amp.

There are many reasons for this. 2 that matter are:

• Tubes produce power in a manner that is subjectively very different from SS. Many tube amps have power in the .5W to 1.5W range, but actually sound at least as powerful as a SS amp rated double or even triple that. Someone other than me can probably explain this--but it's something you'll read over and over again in various comments; and
• Most tube amps support tube-rolling, such that the tube set you end up with (typically consisting of NOS tubes) can vary considerably in performance & sound than stock tubes. On some tube amps you can use adapters to use out-of-class tubes, or even "gang" 2 or 3 tubes to one tube socket.

In return for this uncertainty, you very likely will get a special sound that no SS quite matches. Acclaimed tube sonics include 3-dimensional notes, greater tonal/timbral fidelity, and a more spacious & dimensional soundstage. The list is long.

I've heard a number of high end tube amps at shows. The sound (and price!) is often spectacular. I've owned 2 headphone amps (Woo WA22 & Woo WA3 OTL), and found them to be way more powerful than expected. The WA3 is a relatively inexpensive OTL with just 3 tubes, but I've never gotten the volume pot as high as 12 o'clock with any headphones on hand.

My advice is to decide on a type of tube amp (transformer-coupled vs OTL); your ideal price point; and the amp's size, if space is at a premium. Then identify 3-5 models that interest you--then read every review & comment you can find. The latter will likely be more important in your purchase decision than any specs you can locate.

One amp I find myself interested in (though the last thing I need is a new amp!):

Quicksilver headphone amp: http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/headphone-amplifier/
Quicksilver & founder, Mike Sanders, are legends in the high-end audio community. He has been making well-reviewed 2-channel amps for decades. This is his first tube amp ($995); preliminary reviews & comments are quite favorable.

Thanks for the response. Going off of what you mentioned earlier, I think I'll be needing OTL since I'll be driving VO/HD800S off of it.

What are your thoughts on ZMF Pendant?

 

[Pharmaboy]

Thanks for the response. Going off of what you mentioned earlier, I think I'll be needing OTL since I'll be driving VO/HD800S off of it.

What are your thoughts on ZMF Pendant?

Agree that OTL would probably give optimal results for these high impedance designs.

I heard the Pendant at some point, but too briefly to know what I was hearing. I recommend you read every comment you can find about the Pendant, either in reviews or user comments, here & elsewhere. I would do the same for other "likely suspect" OTL names such decware, Auris, GOTL, La Figaro, Bottlehead Crack, etc.

Honestly, a major factor is knowing your own sonic preferences re tube "warmth," that mellow, romantic quality some tube amps have in abundance, vs others that are more squeaky clean & speedy. If you're a person who appreciates the most neutral, "accurate" SS amps, you might not be happy with a classic, romantic tube sound. That's where reviews & comments come in.

I know from my own experience w/the humble Woo WA3 & from reading countless user comments about various OTLs, that ZMF dynamics love OTLs. You can get a special sound from an amp that presents tube sonics + an ideal impedance match w/high impedance headphones.

 

[StarlightDawn]

These are some excellent amp recommendations, no question. But your 1st post about this suggests 2 upgrade paths:

• Separate DAC: Sonic differences between DACs tend to be rather subtle--but those differences become part of all the music you hear. So if you actually can hear the differences & like them, it becomes a real upgrade. I began using separate DACs years ago. Having a separate DAC enabled me to experiment with different DAC technologies: I quickly discovered that I prefer multibit, and particularly NOS digital vs delta-sigma. I'm on my 4th and best DAC in main system (MHDT Labs Orchid) and am very satisfied.. In that system, this NOS DAC sounds great through any headphone amp on hand, as well as through studio monitors & sub. I have an inexpensive but good multibit DAC in my side-system (headphone only), the Audio GD DAC-19, and like that a lot, too.
• Tube Amplifier:As I understand the CMA 400i, you could run an RCA pair out to any tube amp, thus bypassing the 400i's headphone amp. There are many many tube amps, and each has a loyal following. But you should consider the 2 general types of tube amps:
  • OTL/high impedance: These work best with high impedance headphones like all ZMF dynamics, HD650, etc. They typically don't work very well with low impedance headphones other than planars (anything <~70 ohms).
  • Transformer-coupled: These work very well with any low impedance headphones. Many have hi/low impedance switches allowing them to work optimally with high impedance headphones.

If your only headphones are high impedance, you might be better off with an OTL. They need not be uber-expensive: my Woo WA3 is very good on all ZMF dynamic and can be found ~$450-$500 used. I believe Schitt also has a budget OTL.

If I were in your shoes, I would eventually upgrade in both ways, budget permitting.

And for what it's worth, I own a blackwood Aeolus, and also had the VO & VC in my system for weeks last year. The VC sounded quite amazing but was difficult for me due to closed design; the VO was just about perfect. I ended up getting the Aeolus instead--but I can tell you the VO & Aeolus make a fascinating/contrasting pair of headphones in any system.

You're absolutely right, at first I was considering upgrading the CMA 400i to the CMA Twelve Master. I was then told that I could use the CMA 400i as a DAC via RCA. I don't think I will be getting a seperate DAC anytime soon. It can also be quite difficult having to decide what to upgrade next, especially when it comes down to portable vs. desktop gear.

I'm now considering the Auris Nirvana & Manley Absolute.. and I think both are Transformers. I have to check the WA3 out. There's so many choices out there that it can be quite overwhelming to a newcomer like myself.

In terms of headphones, the VO & Aeolus are perfect for each other IMO.. and I will be patiently waiting for Zach to release a new limited edition Aeolus

 

[LoryWiv]

You're absolutely right, at first I was considering upgrading the CMA 400i to the CMA Twelve Master. I was then told that I could use the CMA 400i as a DAC via RCA. I don't think I will be getting a seperate DAC anytime soon. It can also be quite difficult having to decide what to upgrade next, especially when it comes down to portable vs. desktop gear.

I'm now considering the Auris Nirvana & Manley Absolute.. and I think both are Transformers. I have to check the WA3 out. There's so many choices out there that it can be quite overwhelming to a newcomer like myself.

In terms of headphones, the VO & Aeolus are perfect for each other IMO.. and I will be patiently waiting for Zach to release a new limited edition Aeolus

Would add Feliks-Audio Euforia to your list...my model (Elise) is one tier down and LOVES ZMF dynamics!

 

[StarlightDawn]

Would add Feliks-Audio Euforia to your list...my model (Elise) is one tier down and LOVES ZMF dynamics!

I've heard that they pair really well with ZMF headphones. I also like how their products are very compact, which is beneficial for someone like me who has limited desk space. I would have liked it if they offered a 4 pin xlr jack on their amplifiers. I realized that most tube amps only offer a 1/4 jack, from what I know balanced jacks are better on SS amps?

I still have to do some research and understand the differences between a OTL vs. Transformer.
And thank you for the recommendation!

 

[TheMiddleSky]

I've heard that they pair really well with ZMF headphones. I also like how their products are very compact, which is beneficial for someone like me who has limited desk space. I would have liked it if they offered a 4 pin xlr jack on their amplifiers. I realized that most tube amps only offer a 1/4 jack, from what I know balanced jacks are better on SS amps?

I still have to do some research and understand the differences between a OTL vs. Transformer.
And thank you for the recommendation!

bro, there is no correlation between tube/ss amp and single/balance connection in term of sound quality. Woo WA5 sound much better in balance when pairing with Abyss than many of balance ss amp.

 

[jkpenrose]

I've heard that they pair really well with ZMF headphones. I also like how their products are very compact, which is beneficial for someone like me who has limited desk space. I would have liked it if they offered a 4 pin xlr jack on their amplifiers. I realized that most tube amps only offer a 1/4 jack, from what I know balanced jacks are better on SS amps?

I still have to do some research and understand the differences between a OTL vs. Transformer.
And thank you for the recommendation!

Once upon a time I was into fairly high end speakers, but been years since I've had a proper listening room so I'm making the jump over to headphones.

Ive decided to jump in the deep end and am ordering a VO and a Pendant as the design was specially tuned by Zach to complement the zmf sound - and while I loved all the mix and match of trying various components together in the past - at this point I mostly want to listen to Hella great sound! Which I know is a little different for all of us...

However, I have certainly experienced that some components synergize much better than others - so you can't just take a great can, a great Amp and a great dac and get optimized results...

That said, as I don't have any where to audition most of this stuff, I've been doing a lot of reading to find good reviewers who seem to like the type of sound I prefer and get their take and impressions of equipment - but hard to find good reviews of the pendant... However, I have found torq and resolve to be excellent, articulate reviewers who are big fans of zmf sound...

They have reviews of zmf cans and also the pendant... That you may find helpful... I did

https://www.headphones.com/blogs/news/zmf-pendant-tube-headphone-amplifier-review



Also an interesting group of posters over at superbestaudiofriends that have a good amount of zmf feedback and impressions.

And the soundsanddesign forum here on head fi has some good stuff too.

Also, I will say that the zmf headphone forums here on head-fi have some very articulate and insightful participants - but it does take a long time to read through the full threads!

 

[endre83]

Once upon a time I was into fairly high end speakers, but been years since I've had a proper listening room so I'm making the jump over to headphones.

Ive decided to jump in the deep end and am ordering a VO and a Pendant as the design was specially tuned by Zach to complement the zmf sound - and while I loved all the mix and match of trying various components together in the past - at this point I mostly want to listen to Hella great sound! Which I know is a little different for all of us...

However, I have certainly experienced that some components synergize much better than others - so you can't just take a great can, a great Amp and a great dac and get optimized results...

That said, as I don't have any where to audition most of this stuff, I've been doing a lot of reading to find good reviewers who seem to like the type of sound I prefer and get their take and impressions of equipment - but hard to find good reviews of the pendant... However, I have found torq and resolve to be excellent, articulate reviewers who are big fans of zmf sound...

They have reviews of zmf cans and also the pendant... That you may find helpful... I did

https://www.headphones.com/blogs/news/zmf-pendant-tube-headphone-amplifier-review



Also an interesting group of posters over at superbestaudiofriends that have a good amount of zmf feedback and impressions.

And the soundsanddesign forum here on head fi has some good stuff too.

Also, I will say that the zmf headphone forums here on head-fi have some very articulate and insightful participants - but it does take a long time to read through the full threads!

I agree, while I have decied to go down an other rabbit hole to "max" out M-Scaler with Chord AMP/ DAC's I am going to add sooner or later the Pendant (Or Mogwai) to complement my Verite Closed and Open. and yes Resolve and Torq are great reviewers.

 

[felix3650]

Also, I will say that the zmf headphone forums here on head-fi have some very articulate and insightful participants - but it does take a long time to read through the full threads!

Yup. Here on head-fi it takes quite a bit to "digg" the info out from general chat and thoughts
The pendant, while a safe option is a bit neutral. The Verite has an intrinsic coloration to its sound. The combo will work nicely. Good choice

 

[StarlightDawn]

Once upon a time I was into fairly high end speakers, but been years since I've had a proper listening room so I'm making the jump over to headphones.

Ive decided to jump in the deep end and am ordering a VO and a Pendant as the design was specially tuned by Zach to complement the zmf sound - and while I loved all the mix and match of trying various components together in the past - at this point I mostly want to listen to Hella great sound! Which I know is a little different for all of us...

However, I have certainly experienced that some components synergize much better than others - so you can't just take a great can, a great Amp and a great dac and get optimized results...

That said, as I don't have any where to audition most of this stuff, I've been doing a lot of reading to find good reviewers who seem to like the type of sound I prefer and get their take and impressions of equipment - but hard to find good reviews of the pendant... However, I have found torq and resolve to be excellent, articulate reviewers who are big fans of zmf sound...

They have reviews of zmf cans and also the pendant... That you may find helpful... I did

https://www.headphones.com/blogs/news/zmf-pendant-tube-headphone-amplifier-review



Also an interesting group of posters over at superbestaudiofriends that have a good amount of zmf feedback and impressions.

And the soundsanddesign forum here on head fi has some good stuff too.

Also, I will say that the zmf headphone forums here on head-fi have some very articulate and insightful participants - but it does take a long time to read through the full threads!

Congratulations! Please let us know your impressions of the VO and the Pendant when it arrives
I have been watching Resolve quite a lot as of recent, his reviews are straight to the point and easy to understand for a newcomer like myself. I am still considering the Pendant, Manley, and Auris.. but I think I'll go with the Feliks Audio Echo as my first tube amp. I am also in no rush.. I might just end up saving up ha ha ha.

I have the Universe Perforated Lambskin pads on the way, trying to make the VO a little bit warmer than it is now with the Verite pads.

Thank you for the links, they are very helpful!

 

[jkpenrose]

Congratulations! Please let us know your impressions of the VO and the Pendant when it arrives
I have been watching Resolve quite a lot as of recent, his reviews are straight to the point and easy to understand for a newcomer like myself. I am still considering the Pendant, Manley, and Auris.. but I think I'll go with the Feliks Audio Echo as my first tube amp. I am also in no rush.. I might just end up saving up ha ha ha.

I have the Universe Perforated Lambskin pads on the way, trying to make the VO a little bit warmer than it is now with the Verite pads.

Thank you for the links, they are very helpful!

Ive been getting dizzy reading all the various posts about pads too!

For stereo systems I always stuck with solid state, but definitely noticed changes in sound with quality gear. .

Only tube Amp I have ever used is schitt vali 2 with my meze 99s, but did notice and prefer the 'fuller' sound and what sounds to me like a little more emphasis on each note followed by a more natural sounding decay... Like the notes just didn't stop, but resonated and interacted with the notes that followed.

I also looked at the feliks, the Glenn and the bottle head crack and may get those for comparison sometime, but decided to just go with the Zach tuned approach - though strongly considered the Glenn

I kinda like all these quirky mad scientist types!

But I'm pretty much a noob on the tube side of things!

I'll definitely post back with my impressions when all the kit comes in.

What are you guys doing for dacs?

I started with cans, then amps but now researching dacs.

Dont think I'm ready to go all the way up to yggy or metrum stuff as I haven't noticed as much difference in enjoyment for listening with dacs vs cans/speakers and amps... But I've seen some really good comments (including from torq) about the new bifrost and the techy part of me is thinking a neutral, precise approach like RME adi-2 with all those shiny settings to tweak might be fun!

Leaning towards the bifrost 2, but not sure I like the idea of my dac providing any kind of coloring - even if it is good coloring... I expect it with cans/speakers and even amps - but the scientist part of me keeps thinking bits is bits

 

[biglazymoose]

Ive been getting dizzy reading all the various posts about pads too!

For stereo systems I always stuck with solid state, but definitely noticed changes in sound with quality gear. .

Only tube Amp I have ever used is schitt vali 2 with my meze 99s, but did notice and prefer the 'fuller' sound and what sounds to me like a little more emphasis on each note followed by a more natural sounding decay... Like the notes just didn't stop, but resonated and interacted with the notes that followed.

I also looked at the feliks, the Glenn and the bottle head crack and may get those for comparison sometime, but decided to just go with the Zach tuned approach - though strongly considered the Glenn

I kinda like all these quirky mad scientist types!

But I'm pretty much a noob on the tube side of things!

I'll definitely post back with my impressions when all the kit comes in.

What are you guys doing for dacs?

I started with cans, then amps but now researching dacs.

Dont think I'm ready to go all the way up to yggy or metrum stuff as I haven't noticed as much difference in enjoyment for listening with dacs vs cans/speakers and amps... But I've seen some really good comments (including from torq) about the new bifrost and the techy part of me is thinking a neutral, precise approach like RME adi-2 with all those shiny settings to tweak might be fun!

Leaning towards the bifrost 2, but not sure I like the idea of my dac providing any kind of coloring - even if it is good coloring... I expect it with cans/speakers and even amps - but the scientist part of me keeps thinking bits is bits

I have the rme adi-2. It works great and has a ton of features. Love that LED screen.

 

[StarlightDawn]

Ive been getting dizzy reading all the various posts about pads too!

For stereo systems I always stuck with solid state, but definitely noticed changes in sound with quality gear. .

Only tube Amp I have ever used is schitt vali 2 with my meze 99s, but did notice and prefer the 'fuller' sound and what sounds to me like a little more emphasis on each note followed by a more natural sounding decay... Like the notes just didn't stop, but resonated and interacted with the notes that followed.

I also looked at the feliks, the Glenn and the bottle head crack and may get those for comparison sometime, but decided to just go with the Zach tuned approach - though strongly considered the Glenn

I kinda like all these quirky mad scientist types!

But I'm pretty much a noob on the tube side of things!

I'll definitely post back with my impressions when all the kit comes in.

What are you guys doing for dacs?

I started with cans, then amps but now researching dacs.

Dont think I'm ready to go all the way up to yggy or metrum stuff as I haven't noticed as much difference in enjoyment for listening with dacs vs cans/speakers and amps... But I've seen some really good comments (including from torq) about the new bifrost and the techy part of me is thinking a neutral, precise approach like RME adi-2 with all those shiny settings to tweak might be fun!

Leaning towards the bifrost 2, but not sure I like the idea of my dac providing any kind of coloring - even if it is good coloring... I expect it with cans/speakers and even amps - but the scientist part of me keeps thinking bits is bits

I'm using an all in one solid state (Questyle CMA 400i). I have a couple of DACs that are on my radar, specifically the Chord Qutest and Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro MQA. I am slowly transitioning from an all in one to seperate Amps + DACs desktop setup (it might take some time )

 

[Karnicopia]

I also really like the RME, I went with the pro 2 because there was a big sale when the DAC came out and I like being able to convert A/D for recording. I really like the flexibility the Verite pads are amazing for dynamics and imaging but they lose a bit of that spaciousness and warmth of the universe pads, the RME can add in that warmth and tubes can add in spaciousness without losing any of the imaging or dynamics. I only really add in warmth with the RME for recordings that I feel lack low end which doesn't happen too often but it's nice being able to quickly tweak that when needed. I think eventually I'll upgrade the DAC and move the RME to bring analog audio into my PC and for travel (like in a hotel room) as I can hook that up to my laptop and get great sound with a small footprint. I'm not in a big rush though I'm enjoying the current setup and I think my next thing would be to get a good dedicated source, I actually did notice a good improvement switching the connection between my laptop and DAC to optical so I think I'm going to look into grounding and source next.

 

[jinxy245]

not sure I like the idea of my dac providing any kind of coloring

Personally I find that just about anything you put in the chain has SOME coloring, intentional or not. Some additions are more obvious, some more subtle, some barely noticeable. In the end it's about finding the synergy that suits you best. Unfortunately I don't think there's a shortcut to finding what works for you, but fortunately the journey can be fun.

IMO, YMMV Etc. etc.