[Barone Birra]

Can someone help me understand why the Verites are so good given that their Frequency Response curve wouldn't predict it? Crinacle gives the Verite a pretty bad tonality score. I am considering the Aeolus, the Auteur and the Verite Open.

Crinacle's ranking is definitely wrong in some places. For example, he calls the Final D8000 "bright" (I own it), but only a deaf person would call it bright, it's warm with an accentuated bass and mid-bass.

 

[doboo57]

Thanks for the invite! I am definitely going to take you up on your offer. Once the Big Island waives Covid test for locals, I am flying to see you. I'll bring my BHC as I was travelling with it during the summer on the mainland.

I was leaning toward the Auteur, but I was concerned that it might be too much like the HD800S. I want a complementary set of headphones. I am not that big on the V-shape sound signature which is why I have wondered if the Aeolus would be a good fit for me. Everything I've heard about the Verite Open sounds like it's for me. My only concern is its strange frequency response. I am a huge fan of Crinacle since I think he is a tuning master. I own the Blessing 2 Dusk which are the best tuned IEMs I've ever heard and I own a VE8. And, when I loaded the Crinacle parametric presents into my software equalizer, it turned my HD800S into a great all arounder. I love the whole ZMF concept. When you purchase a ZMF headphone, you get a piece of art. I get that. But, I also want s great headphone that complements what I already own. I think it will because so many people smarter than I am think it is. I just need to hear it for myself and somehow get over my cognitive dissonance.

Hi Man,

I was exacly in the same boat a few weeks ago, looking for a good complement for my Utopia. I finally had the chance to put my hands on a pair of Verite Closed and I don't regret it at all. It checks all the boxes that I was looking for: a different presentation, a richer tone, a less digital timbre, good details and technicalities... I was a bit skeptical too after looking at Crin's graphs, but in the end, I really enjoy my VC. They don't necessarily sound "exactly" like the graph to my ears, despite I'm using the universal pads (the same he used for his measurements).

Just my 2 cents...

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

From what I understand of Crinicle's method of judgment for his list is to sit down in a store and judge the headphone based on whatever pads are on it with an ifi portable amp for a finite period of time. I totally understand why he does it like this and it makes for a great baseline so that each model gets exactly the same input.

While I think his methods and scales are really important and an invaluable asset to the hifi community, our headphones are simply not meant to be used in the way that he is using them, without pad swapping and amp matching to meet subjective taste. Our headphones definitely are different in use than most of what's out there with the different wood densities, pads and impedance, those unique qualities that aren't a "plug and play" may not be for everyone.

Most people who buy or review our headphones live with them for months and find out whether each model is or isn't for their subjective tastes, and find the merits of the high impedance format and earpad swapping. Whether that leads them to like our headphones or not is up to each person!

Hope that helps!

Zach, I am honored with your reply. Your stellar reputation definitely precedes you. I get the whole custom concept, great customer experience and the fact that a ZMF headphone is as much a piece of art as a music listening device. That all weighs positively in my desire to own a ZMF headphone.

My only real issue is whether or not a headphone is going to meet my need long term and I've found that focusing on frequency response is a very important data point in making that assessment. I also get that sources, pads, cables, amps, etc make a difference to sound quality. Now that I've made a friend in Hawaii who owns a few of them, I can try them out for myself and decide from there.

If anyone knows the answer to why the FR curves don't line up with the critical reviews, I would be interested in knowing your theories. I'm not really totally buying the "you just need the right source and pads" argument because you can literally make that argument for every headphone. Something else is going on here and I'd like to get my arms around it. Thanks!

 

[zach915m]

Zach, I am honored with your reply. Your stellar reputation definitely precedes you. I get the whole custom concept, great customer experience and the fact that a ZMF headphone is as much a piece of art as a music listening device. That all weighs positively in my desire to own a ZMF headphone.

My only real issue is whether or not a headphone is going to meet my need long term and I've found that focusing on frequency response is a very important data point in making that assessment. I also get that sources, pads, cables, amps, etc make a difference to sound quality. Now that I've made a friend in Hawaii who owns a few of them, I can try them out for myself and decide from there.

If anyone knows the answer to why the FR curves don't line up with the critical reviews, I would be interested in knowing your theories. I'm not really totally buying the "you just need the right source and pads" argument because you can literally make that argument for every headphone. Something else is going on here and I'd like to get my arms around it. Thanks!

I assume you're talking about the slight dip at 3.1 KHz? That dip is placed there because it's a point where most listeners find fatigue anyways and isn't subjectively heard in a negative way (by most) when listening to anything but a sweep. We were able to lessen it in different iterations of the driver, but those iterations with a smoother transition in that area has less transient speed and blurrier sound, a much worse trade-off than a minor oddity in a graph.

Fortunately when listening to a headphone we listen to far more aspects of a headphone than a specific frequency, as we hear all frequencies culminated together, and when running sweeps on any headphone you'll hear peaks and valleys.

All the other aspects I've hear people talk about in the verite can be altered with different pads, like the slight W-shape that the auteur pads give in the v-closed.

What I learned in tuning headphones using top quality equipment like our Audio Precision 515 and 701 system coupled with the AECM206 is that you can't tune a headphone based on how you want a graph to look. It has to be tuned with the subjective listener in mind, since at the end of the day I want to design headphones that sound great, and don't just measure flat or without any oddity.

I can assure you that any oddity you can see in the response I am fully aware of, and I tuned the headphone to the limits and best of my abilities with the driver we designed and that I believe you're getting the best version of my intent in each headphone we make. Trust me these things keep me up at night as I want everyone to hear our headphones in the best light possible!

Our headphones go through measurements at every stage (R/D, Pre-production, Production, QC) and are tested to the utmost standards to ensure the highest quality. We have an anechoic chamber where the headphones are made sure to be seated correctly with a scope (to make sure the headphone is seated properly with L/R being measured at the same time) on our Audio Precision system that is calibrated with every use.

See here for a graph of the three pads most people use on the V Closed - as you can see the response is altered by the pads, especially the bass to mids transition which is subjectively heard differently by many people based on their listening level (in dB) and the shape of their ears. This graph is diffuse field weighted.

Of note - this graph is of the V-Closed, The V-Open has no such bass to mids transition, and I actually worked on proprietary air-flow design in the V-Closed to make sure there's a touch of a transition between bass and mids, because a flat response between bass and mids on a closed headphone can make it sound more claustrophobic

Dotted Line= Universe pads
Red Solid Line = Verite pads
Brown Solid Line = auteur pads



Also - that's great that you might be able to link up with @robo24 !!!

I hope to visit Hawaii again someday - and please if you ever have any questions I'm around!

 

[vonBaron]

Crinacle's ranking is definitely wrong in some places. For example, he calls the Final D8000 "bright" (I own it), but only a deaf person would call it bright, it's warm with an accentuated bass and mid-bass.

I think he is deaf

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

I think he is deaf

He may be deaf, but he certainly knows how to tune an IEM.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

I assume you're talking about the slight dip at 3.1 KHz? That dip is placed there because it's a point where most listeners find fatigue anyways and isn't subjectively heard in a negative way (by most) when listening to anything but a sweep. We were able to lessen it in different iterations of the driver, but those iterations with a smoother transition in that area has less transient speed and blurrier sound, a much worse trade-off than a minor oddity in a graph.

Fortunately when listening to a headphone we listen to far more aspects of a headphone than a specific frequency, as we hear all frequencies culminated together, and when running sweeps on any headphone you'll hear peaks and valleys.

All the other aspects I've hear people talk about in the verite can be altered with different pads, like the slight W-shape that the auteur pads give in the v-closed.

What I learned in tuning headphones using top quality equipment like our Audio Precision 515 and 701 system coupled with the AECM206 is that you can't tune a headphone based on how you want a graph to look. It has to be tuned with the subjective listener in mind, since at the end of the day I want to design headphones that sound great, and don't just measure flat or without any oddity.

I can assure you that any oddity you can see in the response I am fully aware of, and I tuned the headphone to the limits and best of my abilities with the driver we designed and that I believe you're getting the best version of my intent in each headphone we make. Trust me these things keep me up at night as I want everyone to hear our headphones in the best light possible!

Our headphones go through measurements at every stage (R/D, Pre-production, Production, QC) and are tested to the utmost standards to ensure the highest quality. We have an anechoic chamber where the headphones are made sure to be seated correctly with a scope (to make sure the headphone is seated properly with L/R being measured at the same time) on our Audio Precision system that is calibrated with every use.

See here for a graph of the three pads most people use on the V Closed - as you can see the response is altered by the pads, especially the bass to mids transition which is subjectively heard differently by many people based on their listening level (in dB) and the shape of their ears. This graph is diffuse field weighted.

Of note - this graph is of the V-Closed, The V-Open has no such bass to mids transition, and I actually worked on proprietary air-flow design in the V-Closed to make sure there's a touch of a transition between bass and mids, because a flat response between bass and mids on a closed headphone can make it sound more claustrophobic

Dotted Line= Universe pads
Red Solid Line = Verite pads
Brown Solid Line = auteur pads



Also - that's great that you might be able to link up with @robo24 !!!

I hope to visit Hawaii again someday - and please if you ever have any questions I'm around!

Come on over. Open invite I’ll take you to a few of my S rated restaurants.

 

[kid vic]

Zach, I am honored with your reply. Your stellar reputation definitely precedes you. I get the whole custom concept, great customer experience and the fact that a ZMF headphone is as much a piece of art as a music listening device. That all weighs positively in my desire to own a ZMF headphone.

My only real issue is whether or not a headphone is going to meet my need long term and I've found that focusing on frequency response is a very important data point in making that assessment. I also get that sources, pads, cables, amps, etc make a difference to sound quality. Now that I've made a friend in Hawaii who owns a few of them, I can try them out for myself and decide from there.

If anyone knows the answer to why the FR curves don't line up with the critical reviews, I would be interested in knowing your theories. I'm not really totally buying the "you just need the right source and pads" argument because you can literally make that argument for every headphone. Something else is going on here and I'd like to get my arms around it. Thanks!

Judging a headphone solely based off of FR is like judging a car or motorbike solely off of displacement and 0-60 times, if you only do burnouts and drag race than those numbers tell you everything you need to know, but the corners are where you really find out if the machine works.
Music is not a flat sine wave or frequency sweep that you would use to measure, things like room decay or mic placement in music don't translate through sine waves in a way that can show you how a headphone will actually present them.
Some headphones are like the old Dodge Viper, great straight line numbers but almost undriveable, some headphones are like the Mazda Miata or a Lotus, straight line numbers leave much to be desired but they handle well stock and even better with a few mods. Depending on how many headphones you've actually tried you may find out that the sound you like measures not at all in a way you like. Not to mention that things like detail retrieval, soundstage and imaging are all unmeasurable.

Long term use and listening requires a physical interaction with the headphones, a graph won't tell you what you'll actually hear.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Judging a headphone solely based off of FR is like judging a car or motorbike solely off of displacement and 0-60 times, if you only do burnouts and drag race than those numbers tell you everything you need to know, but the corners are where you really find out if the machine works.
Music is not a flat sine wave or frequency sweep that you would use to measure, things like room decay or mic placement in music don't translate through sine waves in a way that can show you how a headphone will actually present them.
Some headphones are like the old Dodge Viper, great straight line numbers but almost undriveable, some headphones are like the Mazda Miata or a Lotus, straight line numbers leave much to be desired but they handle well stock and even better with a few mods. Depending on how many headphones you've actually tried you may find out that the sound you like measures not at all in a way you like. Not to mention that things like detail retrieval, soundstage and imaging are all unmeasurable.

Long term use and listening requires a physical interaction with the headphones, a graph won't tell you what you'll actually hear.
[/QUOT
Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I said, "I've found that focusing on frequency response is a very important data point in making that assessment." I didn't say it was the ONLY aspect to evaluate a headphone. Do you disagree with that assertion? I will double down on it. In fact, I will claim the converse is true as well. Ignoring frequency response suggests that the person listening is more influenced by factors other than sound in their decision making process like peer pressure, brand, price or the look and feel of the product. I'm here for an honest discussion. I see a disconnect and I am trying to figure out why. It could be as simple as its not possible to properly measure the FR due to the materials involved or the measurements where off on the readings. If that's true, it would be helpful to know and to get updated tests done so people who care about these things don't get the wrong impression. Several of the Chinese IEM companies are on board with tuning their products to target curves to great success.

 

[kid vic]

I disagree quite strongly with your assertion.

If you blind folded me and handed me four different headphones to listen to I could tell you which of the four I prefer, if I looked at their frequency responses its not likely that I would pick the correct one out of the four for my preferences.
Even within a brand or price category you can prefer the sound of one headphone over another; Resolve did a great video comparing the LCD-X, Arya and Focal Clear as to which of the three was the best buy and he recommended all three as good choices with certain caveats and slight preferences.
The problem is still that FR can't tell you all of the information that the sound of a pair of headphones will convey. Hearing a pair of headphones isn't the same as reading it's graph and vice versa. FR measurements imo, are both too narrow and too objective to tell you much useful information about a headphone; it'll probably help you EQ them but the actual listening relationship you have with a headphone or speaker isn't something you can guess through an FR. This is why everyone recommends trying them.

Steve Guttenberg did a great video on this a little while ago that is worth considering.

 

[zach915m]

You mentioned Target curves and maybe this is a discussion for the sound science area or not, but an important thing to realize is that any target curve, whether well researched with data or not, is going to be bias unto the way the research was done or by the person making the target curve.

We have our own targets here at ZMF that we don't feel should be or need to be made public, and I think most headphone companies probably have their own targets as how they want their headphones tuned and to sound.

Just like any other target curve it's bias unto my own preferences both subjective and objective. And that's the thing, every user is going to have their own preference in frequency response and measurements, and it's figuring that out and correlating it to real world use that is going to be the difficult task, especially with all the measurement rigs and methods of measurement which may or may not show accurate data.

The good news is that by the end of 2021 we hopefully will be meeting up and able to listen to a bunch of headphones to ease the burden of deciphering measurements!

 

[zach915m]

OK here's the update to my lame duplicate post!

Been working on a couple stabilized sets for the next batch and using a new type of varnish, the colors are really popping! The next stabilized batch will hit the website late this month or early next.

 

[GDuss]

We have our own targets here at ZMF

Just like any other target curve it's bias unto my own preferences both subjective and objective.

I have 2 sets of ZMF's because of this!!!

 

[Audioraider]

I find it ironic that this discussion is about the frequency response of the VC because the VC is the only headphone I have ever owned that I neither use or have any desire to use EQ. In my experience I have found response curves to NOT be a valid data point when choosing a headphone. First of all, the frequency response curve is going to vary dramatically based on what amp you’re using. A high impedance tube amp is going to be a very different response curve than a low impedance amp and that is just one of a multitude of factors that go into both the sound and tone of a headphone. I just took a look at the graphs that you are referencing. I find it interesting he doesn’t measure anything below 20Hz, since the foundation and a lot of the emotional content of music is found between 5hz and 20Hz that alone would make his measurements useless to me. Also, I took a look at his measurements for the focal utopia compared to the VC and according to his measurements both would have the same amount of bass response. Anybody that owns these two headphones knows that’s utterly ridiculous. Another thing I saw in his measurements is a mid base hump in the VC. There is nothing I detest more than a mid base hump in headphones, it’s the reason I sold my Meze along with many other headphones over the years. I cannot hear a mid base hump in the VC but if I went by his measurements I would’ve never purchased this amazing headphone. I’m sure when building headphones frequency curves are necessary for tuning but the only use I have found for a headphone measurement is after the fact. If I own a headphone and I’m having a problem with it I can look at the frequency response and sometimes identify where that problem may be and attempt to EQ it. I feel strongly about this because about a year and a half ago I made the decision that I was going to go with measurements to make decisions on my dac, amp and headphones... following those measurements lead me down an awful path of sterile and emotionless music.

 

[Audioraider]

He may be deaf, but he certainly knows how to tune an IEM.

I doubt he tunes his IEM only by frequency response measurements.