[pkcpga]

Original Post:


Answering replies (out of order, sorry):



Thanks, and Good question - and I've wrestled with it. Couple of reasons:
1) Space - We live in a one bedroom 750sf apartment in NYC.
2) The hugo2/2go solution meant not having to worry about cables, power supplies, multiple boxes, etc.
3) the hugo 2 was recommended by Zach

I was going to get a tt2, but after trying to find/research a good solution for streaming, I had became physically ill at the thought of all those components, powering it all, and cabling it all together.... and the thought of trying to convince my wife to have it all out on full display in the living room.

But yeah, the NUC/Roon/2go combination is essentially invisible and works brilliantly. I really started this whole journey to get rid of my CDs (again, space), and then it kind of snowballed to upgrading my headfi stuff instead of my stereo equipment, which I'd also like to get rid of (maybe replace it all with a pair of actives).

Anyway, with the VCs, I just wanted to get the very best closed back available, because the noise floor in my apartment is horrible (Although, I recently discovered that I can put a chair in my closet, and for sound isolation, its ! ) . I chose the VCs over the Stellias because:
1) reviewers seem to prefer the VCs
2) VCs are supposed to have to better sound isolation
3) all of the VC parts are replaceable (tunable pads, headband, etc)
4) the Stellias look a bit garish.

Then, realizing that my phone to the ifi is always super awkward, I started to look for options. The Hugo2/2go was like a perfect silver bullet... and it is. It's brilliant. Clearly better sound than the ifi (improved dynamics, and everything else is at least as good as the ifi, but I haven't done a ton of AB testing because why would I do that), but right now, I still prefer the Beyers plugged into the ifi micro BL over the VCs plugged into the Chord, and it's not even close. The VCs are a mess right now. I was doing some more listening last night, and I couldn't find a single thing about the VCs that I prefer over the DT880s, besides the sound isolation. I'm hoping this becomes a story about the miracles of burn in. If not, I'm surely going to return them if I can, or sell them if I must. I'll take 10% hit for the trial.


Along with the Auteur solids that came on the VCS, I also got the Universe solid, and Auteur suede pads, so I'll try those after the burn in process. I purchased the cable a week or two ago and is supposed to ship today, so I'm just going to wait until that arrives to start the 200 hour clock playing pink noise (I actually bought a pink noise CD because I'm antiquated af). Anyway, my attitude is that the cable isn't likely to be worse than the stock cable, so there's only upside returns. It is what it is.


Nah. I listened again last night for much longer on additional variety of tracks. It's definitely not as good. Wife confirmed, and she's only used to airpods. Plus I have several entry level IEMs that I prefer as well.


This is my plan! I've never heard a tube amp before, so I wanted to listen to one before commiting... and also, I have a space problem. Q: Isn't the LCD 4 too sensitive for a tube amp?


I guess i just don't understand where the extra $2000+ of value is coming from then (at the moment, before burn in). I also have some IEMs and they're all "better" than the VCs (nothing crazy, ER4xr which are excellent, westone 3 which I complained about 12 years ago on this forum that you can still see if you click my profile, and a KZ6 from alibaba I paid like $35 for, which have a weird sound signature, but overall very good, like depressingly good).


Thanks for this link. Regardless of whether or not anyone owns a chord, I think this is very good reading. I 1000% subscribe to Rob Watts' philosophy. It annoys me seeing people bash subjectivists and then start referencing Archimigo and Amir because they're implicitly assuming that all qualities of sound replication are perfectly testable, and they're just not - that part of Rob's post was so satisfying to read. The result of so many objectivists is that companies like topping make DACs specifically designed to ace the *known* tests, and go no further. Would anyone listen to a Quetest against a D90 and choose the D90 if price weren't considered? According to Amir and his followers, anyone who doesn't is a fool, and that's just stupid. Tests can be used to disqualify, but shouldn't be the last step of evaluating performance because known tests only go so far - there are no known tests for sound stage, instrument separation, timbre, etc - so you have to listen. Anyway, that's why I'm not too fussed about spending an extra $360 for a wywires platinum cable (on your recommendation no less) when some of the selling points aren't based on any real empirically proven results - as long as it has copper and adequate shielding (because we have high impedance loads, not speakers), and enough people can hear a difference, it's worth a shot. The whole idea of bun in is also scientifically tenuous, but here we are.

ANYWAY, his descriptor definitions are also very useful, also regardless of how someone approaches audiophilia. And still, the DT880 outperforms the VCs before burn in basically all dimensions. It might be that noise floor modulation bit, I don't know. I don't think it is. We'll see.


thank god.

The LCD 4 original are not low ohm (200) or low power requirement, they actually need much more power then the VC’s. The Focal’s besides the Utopia are too sensitive. I have a place in nyc but haven’t been there since covid, if this ever ends you can try my tube amp, that’s there, WooAudio WA6, it’s small but not quite as nice as the Pendant I have in Massachusetts. When I was in grad school my wife and I shared a place in park slope that was almost 600sqft.

 

[zach915m]

Original Post:


Answering replies (out of order, sorry):



Thanks, and Good question - and I've wrestled with it. Couple of reasons:
1) Space - We live in a one bedroom 750sf apartment in NYC.
2) The hugo2/2go solution meant not having to worry about cables, power supplies, multiple boxes, etc.
3) the hugo 2 was recommended by Zach

I was going to get a tt2, but after trying to find/research a good solution for streaming, I had became physically ill at the thought of all those components, powering it all, and cabling it all together.... and the thought of trying to convince my wife to have it all out on full display in the living room.

But yeah, the NUC/Roon/2go combination is essentially invisible and works brilliantly. I really started this whole journey to get rid of my CDs (again, space), and then it kind of snowballed to upgrading my headfi stuff instead of my stereo equipment, which I'd also like to get rid of (maybe replace it all with a pair of actives).

Anyway, with the VCs, I just wanted to get the very best closed back available, because the noise floor in my apartment is horrible (Although, I recently discovered that I can put a chair in my closet, and for sound isolation, its ! ) . I chose the VCs over the Stellias because:
1) reviewers seem to prefer the VCs
2) VCs are supposed to have to better sound isolation
3) all of the VC parts are replaceable (tunable pads, headband, etc)
4) the Stellias look a bit garish.

Then, realizing that my phone to the ifi is always super awkward, I started to look for options. The Hugo2/2go was like a perfect silver bullet... and it is. It's brilliant. Clearly better sound than the ifi (improved dynamics, and everything else is at least as good as the ifi, but I haven't done a ton of AB testing because why would I do that), but right now, I still prefer the Beyers plugged into the ifi micro BL over the VCs plugged into the Chord, and it's not even close. The VCs are a mess right now. I was doing some more listening last night, and I couldn't find a single thing about the VCs that I prefer over the DT880s, besides the sound isolation. I'm hoping this becomes a story about the miracles of burn in. If not, I'm surely going to return them if I can, or sell them if I must. I'll take 10% hit for the trial.


Along with the Auteur solids that came on the VCS, I also got the Universe solid, and Auteur suede pads, so I'll try those after the burn in process. I purchased the cable a week or two ago and is supposed to ship today, so I'm just going to wait until that arrives to start the 200 hour clock playing pink noise (I actually bought a pink noise CD because I'm antiquated af). Anyway, my attitude is that the cable isn't likely to be worse than the stock cable, so there's only upside returns. It is what it is.


Nah. I listened again last night for much longer on additional variety of tracks. It's definitely not as good. Wife confirmed, and she's only used to airpods. Plus I have several entry level IEMs that I prefer as well.


This is my plan! I've never heard a tube amp before, so I wanted to listen to one before commiting... and also, I have a space problem. Q: Isn't the LCD 4 too sensitive for a tube amp?


I guess i just don't understand where the extra $2000+ of value is coming from then (at the moment, before burn in). I also have some IEMs and they're all "better" than the VCs (nothing crazy, ER4xr which are excellent, westone 3 which I complained about 12 years ago on this forum that you can still see if you click my profile, and a KZ6 from alibaba I paid like $35 for, which have a weird sound signature, but overall very good, like depressingly good).


Thanks for this link. Regardless of whether or not anyone owns a chord, I think this is very good reading. I 1000% subscribe to Rob Watts' philosophy. It annoys me seeing people bash subjectivists and then start referencing Archimigo and Amir because they're implicitly assuming that all qualities of sound replication are perfectly testable, and they're just not - that part of Rob's post was so satisfying to read. The result of so many objectivists is that companies like topping make DACs specifically designed to ace the *known* tests, and go no further. Would anyone listen to a Quetest against a D90 and choose the D90 if price weren't considered? According to Amir and his followers, anyone who doesn't is a fool, and that's just stupid. Tests can be used to disqualify, but shouldn't be the last step of evaluating performance because known tests only go so far - there are no known tests for sound stage, instrument separation, timbre, etc - so you have to listen. Anyway, that's why I'm not too fussed about spending an extra $360 for a wywires platinum cable (on your recommendation no less) when some of the selling points aren't based on any real empirically proven results - as long as it has copper and adequate shielding (because we have high impedance loads, not speakers), and enough people can hear a difference, it's worth a shot. The whole idea of bun in is also scientifically tenuous, but here we are.

ANYWAY, his descriptor definitions are also very useful, also regardless of how someone approaches audiophilia. And still, the DT880 outperforms the VCs before burn in basically all dimensions. It might be that noise floor modulation bit, I don't know. I don't think it is. We'll see.


thank god.

If you really like the Beyer/Etymotic sound the Verite Closed is tuned very differently so it might not be your cup of tea.

Edit: But trying the BE2 or Verite solid pads would get close to your preferred sound signature.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

I am really intrigued by the THX AAA 789 amp. It's got to be one of the best price/performance amps out there. Has anyone tried to pair it with a Bifrost 2 to drive the VC? I'd like to take this Amp out for a spin to see what it can do.

 

[shafat777]

I am really intrigued by the THX AAA 789 amp. It's got to be one of the best price/performance amps out there. Has anyone tried to pair it with a Bifrost 2 to drive the VC? I'd like to take this Amp out for a spin to see what it can do.

I used to own a THX 887 (789 equivalent) paired with my VC and Topping d90 dac. I absolutely hated that combo. The 887 is a very clean, dark background amp. As a result, it makes the Vc, which is very musical Hp, sound sterile. Thye mids and vocals were lifeless and the treble were often too harsh. I almost sold my VC because it sounded so weird but thankfully I decided the give the VC a shot with my Liquid platinum and tahts when i decided to sell the 887 and keep the VC. For similar amounts of money, there are better options out there for your VC. Not bashing the 887, its a great amp but it doesnt have a good synergy with ZMF headphones.

 

[econ83]

If you really like the Beyer/Etymotic sound the Verite Closed is tuned very differently so it might not be your cup of tea.

Edit: But trying the BE2 or Verite solid pads would get close to your preferred sound signature.

...Just put in an order for Verite pads. Thanks @zach915m .

Anyway, I feel like my biggest concerns right now don't really have anything to do with the sound signature (I think). The music seems to come through as a gloop without any separation, and a bit glary if I put the volume higher. I understand that recessed/emphasized parts of the frequency response are a matter of taste, but shouldn't the soundstage and separation be top notch? I will start burning them in tonight and see what happens. I came on here because, in my experience, burn in hasn't really made a ton of difference before**, and certainly not to the magnitude required to elevate this particular pair to be on par with their price.... but then again, I've also never had a pair of headphones anywhere near this caliper. It does seem from a few responses here that burn in might make a serious difference, although I was hoping on getting a stronger consensus to put my worries aside.

**besides those cassette tape adaptors people used to play CDs/iPods in cars that only had a tape deck... I remember some of those sounded awful for the first 30 minutes and then cleared up like magic

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

I used to own a THX 887 (789 equivalent) paired with my VC and Topping d90 dac. I absolutely hated that combo. The 887 is a very clean, dark background amp. As a result, it makes the Vc, which is very musical Hp, sound sterile. Thye mids and vocals were lifeless and the treble were often too harsh. I almost sold my VC because it sounded so weird but thankfully I decided the give the VC a shot with my Liquid platinum and tahts when i decided to sell the 887 and keep the VC. For similar amounts of money, there are better options out there for your VC. Not bashing the 887, its a great amp but it doesnt have a good synergy with ZMF headphones.

Thanks. That's helpful. I can see the D90 and the 789 as being analytical beasts. Since the 789 is so transparent, the experience you had could be mostly due to the D90. My guess is that the Bifrost 2 would be better, but until I try it, it's only theory.

 

[shafat777]

Thanks. That's helpful. I can see the D90 and the 789 as being analytical beasts. Since the 789 is so transparent, the experience you had could be mostly due to the D90. My guess is that the Bifrost 2 would be better, but until I try it, it's only theory.

That is an interesting theory btw. I never tried the 887 with anything other than D90 and D70. Maybe the Bf2 will add some coloration to the music and wont sound so sterile like it did for me. However, i would suggest getting the 887 vs the 789 because its much newer and will give you better measurements (if you care about stuff like that). Let me know if i can help in any other way.

 

[Roasty]

I am really intrigued by the THX AAA 789 amp. It's got to be one of the best price/performance amps out there. Has anyone tried to pair it with a Bifrost 2 to drive the VC? I'd like to take this Amp out for a spin to see what it can do.

I've tried VC with D70 and drop 789.. Just avoid that combo. Not sure if it was the D70 or the 789, but man it was just a flat and boring listening experience for me.. The VC was a whole different headphone with a tube amp though!

 

[shafat777]

I've tried VC with D70 and drop 789.. Just avoid that combo. Not sure if it was the D70 or the 789, but man it was just a flat and boring listening experience for me.. The VC was a whole different headphone with a tube amp though!

Preach.

 

[breckstar]

789 is just taking itself out of the headphone amp dac equation. So you’re just left with headphone and dac as your sound coloration.

 

[qboogie]

Hahaha...maybe, I’m deep down the rabbit hole though. I have the JPS Superconductor for my Abyss TCs.

Cigg, I might get some adaptors to use the superconductor on my VC. Will let you know how it goes

 

[Barone Birra]

Guys, are we seriously at the point where we need to invest $$$ in a damn cable to improve the performance of a $2500 headphones??

I have a VO and the difference between the stock cable and a Nordost Heimdall 2 is obvious: separation and width of the soundstage, more airy.
But most certainly a ZMF upgrade cable can lead to the same results.
If you feel no difference... the bottleneck may be another component of the chain.

 

[Barone Birra]

I'm not gonna lie Monster, these days my VC are gathering dust because I have more fun with my $420 Grado Hemp

I also have a Grado, GH3 in my case: really, really fun headphones, so I can understand you.
The Vérité, however, is on another level...

 

[YtseJamer]

I also have a Grado, GH3 in my case: really, really fun headphones, so I can understand you.
The Vérité, however, is on another level...

Yes the VC are better technically, but to my ears the Hemp are more fun and engaging. The GH3 are quite good, but the Hemp are much better, trust me.

 

[funkur]

I don’t necessarily want to flame up the recent cable topic, but I’d like to provide my personal take on it. If not interested, please skip this post now.

I love my VC’s more every day!

TL, DR, like everything in this hobby, there is a law of diminishing returns, but getting decent cables is worthwhile to me.

Back when I was in undergrad in the early 2000’s, I worked for a hi-fi and home theater company (Krell, Martin Logan, B&K, Denon, Sonus Faber, Focal, Crestron, Sonus Faber, Vienna, Sumiko, Levinson, Pro-ject, Pioneer Elite, etc). I was lucky enough to hear and sell $100k+ systems and A/B whatever I wanted.

Yes, I sold the crap out of Audioquest, Monster, etc to my clients. Yes, I heard/saw the difference between OFC and OCC, silver plated/full silver/OCC Silver, exotic geometries, but hell no would I pay MSRP for any of those. List branded cables generally sell at a 50-60% profit margin to the dealer. Companies get into business to make $$$, as they rightfully should. But that doesn’t mean an enthusiast should outright reject their performance claims due to price.

At the very basic level and to what I personally subscribe - the 10-15% rule, when one is in the league of the ZMF VC, it deserves at least a well built and properly terminated OCC Copper cable - which really aren’t that expensive through the right sources. Find something used or DIY and build them yourself for less. For example, Neotech OEM’s many high end brands and is widely available, along with Oyaide or Furutech connections, quality solder, etc.

Cables are where the proverbial rubber meets the road. Stock tires on cars generally suck - I think anyone who has a well handling one would agree. It doesn’t matter what’s under the hood if you can’t take full advantage of it. Fuel (quality AC power) is another subject entirely...

That said, to cable skeptics, order something reasonable with a good return policy and listen for yourself. That’s what this hobby is all about: what moves and motivates you to enjoy it more. If you find an increase in SQ with x/y/z cable, then great. If not, that’s OK too! It’s all part of the fun.