[AudioDuck]

Yeah, picking favorites in the ZMF stable is very difficult. And to make matters more tricky, I found that I actually prefer the AO over the Caldera.

I’m extremely interested in the future Caldera Closed, however.

A future Caldera closed may murder my wallet, sadly.

Or I might sell my VC and Eikon to ultimately own an AC and Caldera closed as the two sonic counterpoints for musical enjoyment.

Fortunately it is likely that a closed Caldera is a way off (from what Zach has shared), so I’m less likely to be jokingly harassed by my spouse if I end up doing that. Plus, she could probably see the logic of “only” having two TOTL headphones…

 

[erics75]

I may just end up keeping AO and AC. I have a Arya organic coming to try out as I always found that Arya was very detailed and comfortable to wear. Of course it has to be eq’d for mids. My ongoing issue is still huge classical orchestra pieces. Nothing ever really can represent what I have in my head. Perhaps only a good room and great speaker system can do this. More often than not AO can come close. Sigh.

For classical have you tried the HD800S or HD820? I'm not a huge classical listener but those were always my favorites for that genre. The expansive soundstage gave that genre a sense of grandeur like being in the audience (well as close as a headphone can get to that). My issue is always tonality with those headphones, especially the 800S. It's just too thin sounding to my ears. Even on tubes I always want more warmth than they're capable of.

 

[hanumanbob]

For classical have you tried the HD800S or HD820? I'm not a huge classical listener but those were always my favorites for that genre. The expansive soundstage gave that genre a sense of grandeur like being in the audience (well as close as a headphone can get to that). My issue is always tonality with those headphones, especially the 800S. It's just too thin sounding to my ears. Even on tubes I always want more warmth than they're capable of.

I never tried the H800 or 820 s . It seems unreasonable that they still cost so much considering how old they are. They list for $2k and considering what has happened since they came out I question it. Classical presents a unique problem going from solo piano to string quartet, to chamber ensemble. to full blown orchestra an opera. The dynamics even within a piece are tremendous. I'm finding that the AO is much more open and airy but to push to a huge sound required the top notes then become harsh. The AO is much fuller in general but can lack detail and forwardness depending on the piece. I"m a classically trained musician, so pretty sensitive to all of this. I love the fit and detail of the Arya but in definitely needs IQ in the middle.

 

[gonintendo]

I never tried the H800 or 820 s . It seems unreasonable that they still cost so much considering how old they are. They list for $2k and considering what has happened since they came out I question it. Classical presents a unique problem going from solo piano to string quartet, to chamber ensemble. to full blown orchestra an opera. The dynamics even within a piece are tremendous. I'm finding that the AO is much more open and airy but to push to a huge sound required the top notes then become harsh. The AO is much fuller in general but can lack detail and forwardness depending on the piece. I"m a classically trained musician, so pretty sensitive to all of this. I love the fit and detail of the Arya but in definitely needs IQ in the middle.

You can get them open box for around $1300 and used for even less, and they are well worth the money. Built better than most high end headphones, and very lightweight. There really isn’t anything else like them on the market and I would take them over most high end planars personally

 

[hanumanbob]

You can get them open box for around $1300 and used for even less, and they are well worth the money. Built better than most high end headphones, and very lightweight. There really isn’t anything else like them on the market and I would take them over most high end planars personally

What's the difference between the 800 and 820?

 

[gonintendo]

What's the difference between the 800 and 820?

820 is the closed back version

 

[goldwerger]

I never tried the H800 or 820 s . It seems unreasonable that they still cost so much considering how old they are. They list for $2k and considering what has happened since they came out I question it. Classical presents a unique problem going from solo piano to string quartet, to chamber ensemble. to full blown orchestra an opera. The dynamics even within a piece are tremendous. I'm finding that the AO is much more open and airy but to push to a huge sound required the top notes then become harsh. The AO is much fuller in general but can lack detail and forwardness depending on the piece. I"m a classically trained musician, so pretty sensitive to all of this. I love the fit and detail of the Arya but in definitely needs IQ in the middle.

You can't judge headphones by their listed price or the year in which they were manufactured. Only by listening to them. The 800s are ubiuqitous and should be super easy to audition. FWIW, I second that recommendation for you for classical, espeically given your preferences above - those headphones' unique trick is a very large and airy soundstage, and they are especially good for classical music. Very well engineered. What they lack in comparison to the AO, for example, are a dense and richly textured bass (though this can be achieved with pairing with a very good OTL, like the ZMF/Decware OTL). If the above reflects your personal music and presentation preference, you should probably audition them. If you're looking for headphones that can work great across genres, with a presentation that is thicker and more weighty, with more bite in the bass and a deeper reverb, the AO are suprior and would be my choice for sure.

 

[erics75]

What's the difference between the 800 and 820?

For the prices, I would buy used if you're ok with it, you'll save a fortune. I got my current HD820 under $1000, and the last 800S I owned I also got under $1000. Earlier today I saw an OG HD800 (leaner than the newer S model but not significantly so IMO) for under $800, which is a steal I think.

For 800S vs 820, the 820 is the closed back model, the 800S open. The 820 is warmer sounding and not quite as open, but still very very open sounding for a closed back model. IMO the 820's soundstage rivals many open back sets. And the added isolation and warmth make it a more musical and enjoyable listen. At least for me that's the case.

For dynamic range you mentioned before, the 800 series has very good range, even for an older headphone. The driver tech was so ahead of it's time, it's only been the last few short years other companies have caught up to them from a technical perspective. The issue the 800 series always seems to face is tonal balance. The main complaint seems to be it's perceived leanness/brightness. And on solid state amps I tend to agree. But on a nice tube amp with the right tubes, the 800/820 is not that lean. Neutral yeah, but not lean. But compared to most ZMFs it's going to come across as very lean. If you do get one don't swap back and forth like I did between the 800 and say an Atticus. When I did that I thought the 800 was the most horrific sounding headphone ever made hahaha. But when I gave it time, and especially when I got a good tube amp, I realized how good the 800 can be, especially in the right situation. And for me it's classical. The laser like separation and large soundstage always helped me appreciate that genre more. And I never felt the 800 lacking in dynamic range. Sure I'd like more warmth/bass, but again, tubes and eq can patch that up nicely. I still much prefer my ZMFs for most listening, but classical specifically, I grab my 820 every time. The Verite Open is also a killer classical set. I had one on loan for a month and thought it was amazing for that. But I didn't buy it as I prefer the slower, more natural sounding Auteur and Atrium. I just love biocellulose drivers it seems like.

 

[hanumanbob]

You can't just headphones by their listed price or the year in which they were manufactured. Only by listening to them. The 800s are ubiuqitous and should be super easy to audition. FWIW, I second that recommendation for you for classical, espeically given your preferences above - those headphones' unique trick is a very large and airy soundstage, and they are especially good for classical music. Very well engineered. What they lack in comparison to the AO, for example, are a dense and rich textured bass (though this can be achieved with pairing with a very good OTL, like the ZMF/Decware OTL). If the above reflects your personal music and presentation preference, you should probably audition them. If you're looking for headphones that can work great across genres, with a presentation that is thicker and more weighty, with more bite in the bass and a deeper reverb, the AO are suprior and would be my choice for sure.

i think I'll stick with the AO for now and pehaps up my amp selection to one with more power and see what happens I'm currently using JDS Element III boosted which is quite nice.

 

[Monsterzero]

i think I'll stick with the AO for now and pehaps up my amp selection to one with more power and see what happens I'm currently using JDS Element III boosted which is quite nice.

I'm not a classical music listener, and a lot has changed in the headphone world since then, but there was a time where both the AKG K501 and K601 were both highly regarded for classical music. I mention them as both can be picked up these days for relatively little money.

 

[Noir7]

Yep, time fly by and lots of new hardware coming by, for the same genre with different setup make different presentation. still the oldies sometime will be remembered as the pinnacle from its own time.

 

[hanumanbob]

I'm not a classical music listener, and a lot has changed in the headphone world since then, but there was a time where both the AKG K501 and K601 were both highly regarded for classical music. I mention them as both can be picked up these days for relatively little money.

There’s a 601 on eBay for $300

 

[Monsterzero]

There’s a 601 on eBay for $300

I have no idea if thats a fair price or not, and again I'm not a classical music person...

This shootout was my bible when I first got into the hobby. I would suggest reading this article and decide for yourself if it's worth it to you to pursue these vintage headphones or not.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared.634201/

The links are broken so you have to scroll quite a ways to find the section on the K501

 

[robo24]

What's the difference between the 800 and 820?

My take on them is very different than what the majority of reviews of the 820 say. I hear them as very similar but having tamed treble, not as thin sounding, much greater bass quantity (especially with a tight seal which is difficult to get for many since they don't fit tightly like the 600 series). The soundstage is more narrow but still shockingly wide and wider than any of the open backs I own. I don't use them as much as I used to, between them being the first expensive headphones I bought nearly 5 years ago and discovering the ZMF house sound is perfect for me. I agree that going from a ZMF to the 820 they'll definitely feel thin. Nevertheless they're distinctly different from everything else I own, being more airy and clinical (in a good way). Had an 800 SDR for awhile, which isn't far from the 800S. Just couldn't love them, being too bass-lite, and the treble always grated on me. Tube amps definitely helped. The Atrium Closed is a much better headphone to my ears than the 820, with a still impressively wide soundstage.

 

[heliosphann]

You can get them open box for around $1300 and used for even less, and they are well worth the money. Built better than most high end headphones, and very lightweight. There really isn’t anything else like them on the market and I would take them over most high end planars personally

Plus ZMF makes great pads for them! The Crescent Snap also can really improve comfort as well.