[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 Sorry for the battle type of title. I don't really mean this to be a which is better thread, but I've heard so many good things about the Zana Deux amp. Singlepower (PPX) was the track I was heading down, but really want to hear some impressions of those who have owned or just heard both. And what headphones work well with the Zana Deux. BTW, what is the price of the Zana Deux? Is it available? Thanks!

Listen to both and make up your own mind.

 

[yellafella321]

Rob, does the cary have dual outputs?

 

[guzziguy]

I'll start off by repeating what everybody else has said, both the ZD and the SP amps are all quality products. You have to listen to them with your equipment to decide what sounds best to you. They will all sound very good. Then you also have to decide what features are important to you. Putting those two things together should make it easy to then decide what to buy.

I went through this process in early August. I'm new to head-fi but have been into speaker-fi for years. I had recently bought a pair of AKG K340 and they just didn't sound that great through the Headfive amp that I had. So I attended the LA meet with the express purpose of finding an amplifier that would match well with the K340. My biases going in were 1) I preferred tubes to SS and 2) I really wanted to like the ZD because of my familiarity with the looks (but not the sound) of Craig's earlier Moth amps.

At the meet, I listened to the four main tube amps there (MPX3 SE, ZD, Raptor and SLAM PPX3 in that order). In each case, the session was with my iPOD (Apple lossless), cable and K340. I listened to the first two back to back and really liked both. They were different, but both were very musical and "organic" as I like to call it. They sounded like music. The K340 worked well with both of them. I'd have been happy to have either, but the prices for both were way higher than I was willing to pay.

Later in the meet I got to listen to Borat's SLAM PPX3 in the "quiet room". This had the same magic that I heard with the MPX3 and ZD. The price of this was almost reasonable, especially if I could get some or all of it used. I really liked this set up.

After the meet I bought a used PPX3 and had it sent to SP. There they upgraded it to 6SN7 and SLAM models. I also had Mikhail install a stepped attenuator and include a 7N7 adaptor. While I was waiting for the amp, I bought enough NOS tubes to last quite a while. The prices for them were all quite reasonable.

The total amount I spent on amp and tubes is about $1200. For this price I have a very flexible, powerful and magical amplifier for my main setup. This setup is at work so the smaller footprint of the PPX3 is a plus too. I really love to listen to it. I'm spending more time at work now because of my new system (I got a used E5 for a source). I doubt that I'd be much, if any, happier if I had bought either a SLAM MPX3 or a ZD. I wouldn't be less happy either.

So there you go. IMO you can't go wrong with either a ZD or SP amp. It just comes down to what works better for you.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by granodemostasa sacd_lover: were you not the one who convinced me of the ZD? honestly, given how the GS1000 sounds... i could imagine the grado-eddie current combination as horrifyingly bad. i have to think about how to set my rig up to do an A/B between the two amps without having to use an RCA splitter or the ZD as the pre-amp.

Based on what you told me you were looking for I thought the Zana would be better for your needs ..... so thats what I recommended. You wanted to go more upscale but you wanted to keep your budget in the $1600 max realm .... and you werent sure about buying and rolling tubes. I rarely make my recommendations based on what I like. I listen to what people tell me they want, have them list their equipment and determine their sonic priorities and finally .... measure that against my impressions of the equipment in question.

My priorities regarding sound and my equipment, from memory, are quite different than yours. I have to have big dynamics and I cant live with an unrefined treble period .... and I did mention the Zana's treble issues that I hear. But, I use mainly senn headphones and I plain dont like the GS1000 headphone with any amp .... period. So hence my reservations regarding the Zana for me. But for you, with the input you gave me, I believed you would be happier with the Zana.

It would have been easy to recommend a SP amp to you. I wonder how many people think I would only recommend SP amps? But listening to your impression of the Zana I truly thought the Zana would be better for you; especially with the options you wanted. If you remember, I advised you that if you didnt like the Zana the resale for this amp would be excellent given the positive reaction from listeners and the limited number available. With the price undoubtedly going up for the next production run this is even more true now. I wouldnt worry how they compare at this point .... I would worry about if the Zana were for me. If you dont like the amp you will have numerous suitors willing to take the amp off your hands.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyrion Listen to both and make up your own mind.

I knew someone would hit me with this

After reading this thread, I realize that the differences are probably simply a preference thing unlike some other amps that have distinct characteristics that can be easier to describe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellafella321 Rob, does the cary have dual outputs?

My Cary 308T? I don't think so. My Sony doesn't either

I think I have a couple of decent splitters though.

Thanks everyone for being so civil. I will reference some of these posts in the future to know the different configurations, etc.

Also, thanks for the PPX love. I like advice that saves me money

 

[909]

We all have our preferences and our biases (no doubt). Based on sacd lover’s assessment when comparing SP amps or even when comparing them against any other manufacturer it’s next to impossible to compare one to another because each SP amp is usually built differently and can sound different with different tube rolling options as well. With 100s of different voicing choices it could be a blessing or just make your head spin. As I’ve mentioned before, I believe as much as SP provides options to the listener it still is limited to Mikhail’s voicing preference, design, and design philosophy. And the same holds true for any amp maker.

I remember reading impressions from an old Florida meet when Tyrion had his EC2A3 and Head-Fiers in back-to-back comparisons against the MPX3 preferred the EC2A3 by a good margin. This holds true with Mikey01’s opinion as it does coincidence with my take and we had both these amps in our possession for weeks to compare.

Just to toot Craig’s horn, he works with Belkin Labs, Cerwin Vega and in the past I believe Carnegie hall, doing research, design, prototypes as well as building amps. This is just to name a few of the many notables. And can’t forget Moth Audio.

Enough cannot be said about how the source, cables, and headphones can affect either positively or negatively a listeners experience along with their personal preferences. And certain equipment such as an amp can be pointed to, but it is equally likely that it could be the source, headphones, cables or the recording. Even some sort of combo at play.

Large So Cal meets are just plain noisy. It was nice spending the night there without any distractions, but the equipment and music.

Just for clarification, under ideal listening conditions I compared the PPX3 balanced slam against the ZD with my source, cables, headphones, and music. On at least two separate occasions I compared my EC2A3 against the MPX3 w/ 6SN7s again under ideal listening conditions. As well as comparing my EC2A3 against the ZD. I know what I heard and what I preferred. IMO and in general, the 6SN7 is a better sounding and more musical tube than any 5687.

I’ve very sensitive ears to high frequencies and usually within seconds or sometimes even minutes I’ll know whether a certain amp, headphones, source, or cable is going to be fatiguing. I've had no such experience with the ZD. I listened with my HD650; sources: moth dac, 508.24, Apollo; cables: cardas neutral reference, AVpure, quality copper cable.

It’s fine to disagree, but let’s not forget for the most part this is a subjective art. I find it very suspect when someone deals in absolutes. Especially knowing that all the amps mentioned are of the utmost caliber.


Quote:

Originally Posted by tyrion Listen to both and make up your own mind.

Ditto

 

[granodemostasa]

yea, but i didn't have any reservations about tube rolling. it was either a ppx slam or a upgraded mpx v. the zana. Thanks... i think the conclusion was like: listen to both because i could sell the zd and get something else instead without loosing much $.

i would now like to hear the supra v. zana (if they are going to be in the same $ category inthe future).

 

[909]

I forgot to mention the ZD proto that you heard isn't the same as the first run. The ZD amplifier topology is similar to my EC2A3, DC coupled until the output caps which are custom paper and oil, with film and soy bean oil (originally made for moth). They are in sealed aluminum cans. Craig indicated these sound better than any other cap he has heard in OTL service, and are a smaller brother to the giant Xana caps. The 6C33C-Bs are designed to run at 90 watts of plate dissipation, Craig is running them at 6 watts. He's also got huge cathode resistors so the max power if the tube shorted is less than 20 watts, and this is on two 25 watt resistors. The very slow turn on from the damper diodes assures very mellow and stable warm up.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 909 . It’s fine to disagree, but let’s not forget for the most part this is a subjective art. I find it very suspect when someone deals in absolutes. Especially knowing that all the amps mentioned are of the utmost caliber.

I am not sure what you are referring to but I know in reviewing my posts and your posts in this thread .... there are more absolutes in your posts than in mine.

I also know you keep referring to the MPX3-6SN7 you auditioned vs the Moth/EC amps. The SLAM SE is worlds apart from that sound. When you hear one I have no doubt your perspective would change.

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover I am not sure what you are referring to but I know in reviewing my posts and your posts in this thread .... there are more absolutes in your posts than in mine.

Really? I guess it's all about our perspective . And when pointing the finger we usually miss are own three pointing back at us. I usually don’t deal in absolutes and make a conscious effort in my posts to reflect that fact and believe it shows if one reads them in there entirety. But you as I are entitled to our opinion. I certainly don’t take it personally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover I also know you keep referring to the MPX3-6SN7 you auditioned vs the Moth/EC amps. The SLAM SE is worlds apart from that sound. When you hear one I have no doubt your perspective would change.

But as you’ve mention in that apple-to-apple analogy, it wouldn’t be a so-called fair comparison.

I would really like to audition the MPX3 SLAM SE and see how it stacks up against my EC2A3. As you know, this week I got some highly regarded NOS RCA double black plates and they sound really nice and seem to be working wonders so far. And mesh well with my WWII Sylvania 6SN7 metal base tall glass and the re-branded RCA (Sylvania) fat bottle 5AR4. I would have no problem being objective and reporting which amp I liked better. My interests reside in finding the sound that most pleases my ear and a good amount of the time letting others know about it too. The more I hear and compare the more I learn and know. My door is always open to auditioning new gear. Some of my preconceived notions about silver have been redefined to a certain degree after doing Edwood’s blind cable test. I do have an open mind and think independently and based my decisions on my ears and not solely on what everyone else is telling or selling. Just because a lot of people believe they like Coke Cola or Pepsi products better that doesn’t necessarily mean they are better or the best and only choices available.

 

[robm321]

Look what I started

The only absolute is how absolutely empty both of these will make my wallet.

 

[kontai69]

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustwest I think the Zana is around $1600, but you should call them for an exact price. I've noticed, from what I've read, that their price seems to fluctuate some.

At the Marin, CA meet last weekend, IIRC, Craig told me that he had to increase the price of the Zana by a couple hundred dollars because he now has to contract out their assembly. He said he no longer had 40 hours to build each one.

It sounded REALLY good driving a pair of HD600. He played some acoustic track with Chinese vocals. I now wish I had spent more time listening to it.

 

[tyrion]

I did prefer the EC2A3 that I sold to Mikey01 to the MPX3 I had at the time. Having said that, I haven't heard an MPX3 Slam and the MPX3 I just sold was great. I just had to have the Moth si2A3 so I sold the MPX3 but it had nothing to do with the sq of the MPX3.

We all have our preferences. Some objective and some subjective. When we say one amp is better than another, we should be carful to qualify it that it is our opinion. I've heard a lot of high end amps and there isn't one that I would say I don't like. There are just some I prefer over others for a variety of reasons. The problems start when we speak in absolutes, to steal a term from above (that was not meant to comment on either 909 or sacdlovers posts).

 

[909]

I think the next ZD run will be priced at $1990.

 

[ironbut]

So are the changes in the second run going to be cosmetic only or did he say that there are internal changes also. The last time I got an email from Craig, he said that I should contact him the last week of this month to get details on putting a deposit on a ZD. Maybe it'll have a halloween motif!