[rb2013]

   
Thanks, the OCXO was an unexpected improvement, on paper the CCHD-575 would have been just as good if phase noise was the only measure, it clearly was not the case from the listening test.
 
The DDC is a big part of the equation, the one I am using on the DAC is a modified Amanero with CCHD-957s. I2S output.
The board has 6xADP-150s plus a LT3042 primary regulator, 0.8uV noise.

 
In fact, the total noise-output is never stated in the data-sheets, and measurements only mention in-band-noise up to 20kHz, suggesting that higher frequency noise has no effect on fidelity.
 
This is one reason I never cared for DS DACs in general, the ESS Saber series being the exception. The bulk of my current inventory is R2R (Schitt Yggy, Soekris DAM1021, Philips TDA1541A).
 
I find the ESS Hyperstream modulator in the Saber32 quite exceptional in that the noise is at -140dBFS up to 200kHz, indeed this is the one of the main claims of their IP, as the snippet from ESS's Hyperstream patent shows.
 


Patent reference is on the right side of the pic if there is any interest.
 
The giant spur at 3MHz is one reason why implementation is so important, if vendors do not have the correct analog post processing, the spur being only 40dB down causes no end of havoc.
Adding to the complication is the use of cheap opamps in the I/V that will struggle in the 2-4MHz range.

Great info thanks!  I had a DAC with the Sabre 32 it had a hardness in SQ - but very detailed.  The Eastern Elec MiniMax Plus - choice of rollable opamps (socketed) and tube outputs.  No matter what I tried I could not get it tonally where I wanted and sold it.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1212/eastern_electric_minimax_dac_plus.htm
 
MSB Tech - the R2R giants published this on the D-S 32 bit DACs -
http://www.msbtech.com/support/What_about_32_bit_DACs.php?Page=supportHome
 
And the issue of chip on board opamps high lighted here:
http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html
 

 Delta Sigma DACs all have internal op-amps to provide a voltage output.

Op amps are not evil, however there are good sounding op-amps and average sounding ones. Good ones cost more than most delta sigma DAC chips themselves. One of the problems with most delta sigma designs, is that the on board op-amp is not of the best quality. There is no option to take the current output from the chip. Hence we are stuck with the voltage output and consequently, the "sound' of the op amp, that the manufacturer gives us.

The reason delta sigma was developed was to get the chip size smaller and reduce manufacturing costs. From what I can tell, it is not in any way shape or form to obtain better sound.

If the object was to obtain better sound then the manufacturers would improve laser trimming of the R2R ladder network, however this costs a lot of money, and the chips stay big! However the PCM1704 is an exception to this rule being a surface mount 24bit 96khz R2R chip.

Alex at APL found a way to hotwire the AKM 32-bit D-S multi-segment chips and run them in series
.
The reason I choose the classic 24-bit R2R PCM1704UK based DAC60 to begin my mod project - the results far exceeding my expectations:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
 
I'm in awe of the Yggy!  That is very cool technology - and the SQ is excellent I hear. 
 
'm a tubed DAC guy so these would be on my 'lottery money' list:
 
APL DSD-M: http://www.aplhifi.com/products/dsd-m
Total DAC D1 Tubed: http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm
Aqua La Scala MK2: http://www.aquahifi.com/la_scala.html
 
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

  Hi Bob,
 
Most important is as less as much noise in psu, and please feed it with it's own R-Core, and if possible, connect that R-Core to a powerfilter, the ones I used in my dac, this really does the trick.
 
Changing caps should also improve SQ, but first things first, external psu for crystals, burnin-in for 150 hours and start listening to it

Yes I agree feeding the clocks directly from a separate 3.3VDC source would make sense - thanks!
 

  Ordered the Intona standard.
Should be here in a couple of day´s, way before the F1 I also ordered 

 
Interesting to hear if I will hear any difference from the configuration I now have!

Nice!  Well I'll be curious as to your results with the F-1
 
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

F-1 Review Update:
 
Ok the F-1 is at the 120hrs mark for last nights listening session - now with the W4S Recovery.  First - no unlocks again - super stable drivers and unit - same for the X-1.  Rock solid.  Sounding great!  Don't really think the Recovery made any significant improvement (over the Regen) - as least before burnin.  So we'll see.
 
As I was listening I was re-reading the CA 15 USB/SPDIF converter shootout on my tablet.  Just a refreasher this was their ranking of DDCs:
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
 

To me​

Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art inUSB/SPDIF converters design​

.​

​

​

The final shootout score is as follows:​

 

To me​

Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art inUSB/SPDIF converters design​

.​

​

​

The final shootout score is as follows:​

​

​

Matrix 24/96 - 60​

​

Hegel HD2 - 65​

​

Musical Fidelity V-Link II - 75​

​

Stello CDT-100 - 75​

​

Bryston BDP-1 - 80​

​

Halide Design The Bridge – 80 (+5 when powered from​

SOtM

​

USB

card)​

​

M2Tech HiFace Evo - 80​

​

Stello U3 - 85​

​

JK SPDIF Mk3 - 90​

​

M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply - 90​

​

Soulution 590 – 90 (+5 when powered from​

SOtM

​

USB

card)​

​

Audiophilleo 1/2 - 95​

​

dCS U-Clock - 95 (+5 when used with dCS​

DAC

and the Clock Link feature enabled)​

​

Empirical Audio Off Ramp Turbo 5 - 95​

​

AP1 with the PurePower battery​

PSU

- 95 (borderline 100)​

​

M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply + Evo Clock - 100​

​

dCS Scarlatti CD/SACD transport - 100 (+5 when used with dCS​

DAC

and the Clock Link feature enabled)​

​

Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB – 110​

So it looks like the $1800 Berkeley Audio USB was the top dog - BUT then I read near the end of the comments a discussion of the PUC2/PUClite, as the new Mutec MC-3 USb entered the discussion:
 

 

10-22-2015, 02:03 PM

#535​

​

joelha

Junior Member

Join Date​

Oct 2009

Posts​

798

I own the Berkeley Alpha USB and auditioned the Soulution 590 in my home.

I sent the Soulution back and kept the Berkeley Alpha.

I've heard great things about the Yellow PUC2. It wold be quite a surprise at its price-point if it could compete with or beat the Berekeley, but then this hobby continues to surprise me.

Anyone compare those two units?

Joel

​

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

0-22-2015, 03:42 PM

#536​

​

rossb

Freshman Member

Join Date​

Apr 2013

Posts​

97

Yes, I have had both. I much preferred the PUC2 to the Berkeley.

​

 

​

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Then someone linked over to the Stereotimes Review of the PUC2 Lite:
http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
 
Well - Does the PUC2 better the Berkeley????  Wow!  If so I would use some logic and say the F-1 (well fed) would just crush the Berkeley!!!
 
Of course this is all system dependent - but at least in mine the F-1 is heads over the PUC2 and the Pro3a.
 
So far no threads on CA about the F-1, X-1 or even the XMOS XU208 - interesting for a computer audio blog to not have this on their radar - at least a discussion.
 
Bet when they stumble on to this little board - some folks there will flip out.  Of course the 'rear guard' that flame the threads there constantly (Poor REShaman) - will likely dismiss it without even hearing it saying "it can;t be any good - it doesn't cost at least a grand"

Well who'll be the brave one to open the discussion there - better wear your flamesuit.

 

[Luckbad]

One thing to note on CA and to a lesser extent HF, cost translates to audio fidelity. If something is super inexpensive, it can't be very good. People on CA make me feel poor.
 
Other people also have very different rankings and ears. I've heard from people I trust that the M2Tech is pretty mediocre in the value department and the Audiophilleo is horrible value (like... not really better than a lot of modern USB inputs in DACs).
 
I've also heard the Gustard U12 is worlds better than stock USB. I didn't hear a difference. I heard the Audio-GD DI-2014 is much better than that. No difference. Audio-GD DI-U8 is bonkers good! Okay, this one I could tell it was slightly better than pure USB. Now we're getting somewhere...
 
CI Audio Transient MKII will do your laundry! Actually, this one is slightly better to my ears than the DI-U8, even powered by USB. Give it a nice power supply and bring its total cost to four figures, and it's probably extremely impressive.
 
But wait, Mutec MC-1.2 is as good as the Transient and hundreds less! Guess I better listen head-to-head. Actually, yes. Power it from USB and it's slightly worse, plug in the mains and it's slightly better.
 
Crap, am I on the USB converter train? I better try the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB. $1100? Frick... I hope it's no better than the MC-1.2.
 
Curses. Malurses. The Mutec MC-3+ USB is clearly very good. It's the first converter I've used that made me realize things really could get better in an obvious way. Everything is the same, just better. Cleaner, clearer, better stage, better separation... 
 
Maybe these people aren't as crazy as I thought? 
 
Okay, I don't know why my tangent went that far. Anyway, be wary of the CA crowd. They--in a very unfair and generalized sense--translate cost to quality. In way, that happens here as well. These super cheap options are very high value, thus contribute to our perception of their quality.
 
I'll get @rb2013 one of my Mutec MC-3+ USBs sometime soon so he can give his impressions. 

 

[murphythecat]

RB2013, one thing to consider is the shoot out at CA was done in 2013.
I think the XMOS chip is really the cause of the better SQ and maybe im wrong but the units in the CA shootout are too old to use XMOS.

 

[rb2013]

  One thing to note on CA and to a lesser extent HF, cost translates to audio fidelity. If something is super inexpensive, it can't be very good. People on CA make me feel poor.
 
Other people also have very different rankings and ears. I've heard from people I trust that the M2Tech is pretty mediocre in the value department and the Audiophilleo is horrible value (like... not really better than a lot of modern USB inputs in DACs).
 
I've also heard the Gustard U12 is worlds better than stock USB. I didn't hear a difference. I heard the Audio-GD DI-2014 is much better than that. No difference. Audio-GD DI-U8 is bonkers good! Okay, this one I could tell it was slightly better than pure USB. Now we're getting somewhere...
 
CI Audio Transient MKII will do your laundry! Actually, this one is slightly better to my ears than the DI-U8, even powered by USB. Give it a nice power supply and bring its total cost to four figures, and it's probably extremely impressive.
 
But wait, Mutec MC-1.2 is as good as the Transient and hundreds less! Guess I better listen head-to-head. Actually, yes. Power it from USB and it's slightly worse, plug in the mains and it's slightly better.
 
Crap, am I on the USB converter train? I better try the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB. $1100? Frick... I hope it's no better than the MC-1.2.
 
Curses. Malurses. The Mutec MC-3+ USB is clearly very good. It's the first converter I've used that made me realize things really could get better in an obvious way. Everything is the same, just better. Cleaner, clearer, better stage, better separation... 
 
Maybe these people aren't as crazy as I thought? 
 
Okay, I don't know why my tangent went that far. Anyway, be wary of the CA crowd. They--in a very unfair and generalized sense--translate cost to quality. In way, that happens here as well. These super cheap options are very high value, thus contribute to our perception of their quality.
 
I'll get @rb2013 one of my Mutec MC-3+ USBs sometime soon so he can give his impressions. 

Great post! LOL!  But you are so right.  And there is an element of truth to money buys SQ.  The Berkeley so very well designed and using top components - same for the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB (they need a shorter name).   Have you ever heard the Berkeley USB?  I haven't and of course am curious - (hint, hint to anyone out there).
 
Thank you for the offer to loan me that amazing unit - that's how I came on the PUC2 lite.
 
I started this computer audio thing over 10 yrs ago - before USB 2.0 Async.  To get the thru put I needed I had to go the Pro Audio route - using the RME FireFace 800 - a $1500 solution.  It used the sota at the time higher bandwidth Firewire 1394b (same as the F-22 Raptor).  And it was pretty good.

 
 
Fast forward to today - like a bi-plane compared to that F-22. 
 
So at least for me and my system, and ears each step here up the USB ladder has been noticeable - the F-1 a major step up - in fact a leap up.  As I say I always use my analog system as a litmus test - reference point.  Soon it may very well go bye, bye...
 
Cheers!

 

[murphythecat]

so you will try mutec mc-3? its way to rich for me but it will be great knowing how it compares to breeze, puc2, ect!!!
 
thanks for your dedication rb2013

 

[rb2013]

  RB2013, one thing to consider is the shoot out at CA was done in 2013.
I think the XMOS chip is really the cause of the better SQ and maybe im wrong but the units in the CA shootout are too old to use XMOS.

Well that's a good point and it was updated from time to time - the Berkeley is based on the XMOS - so maybe a ground breaker back then.
 
I laugh - the iCore 7 4790 12GB DDR3 mem that I bought at Costco for $450 - would smoke the best $2000 PC from 2013.  In fact would smoke the best supercomputer from 1980.
 
Like CPU technology - this DDC stuff is moving very fast.  As admitted to me recently  - the Audio Mag reviewers can not keep pace.
 

 

[rb2013]

  so you will try mutec mc-3? its way to rich for me but it will be great knowing how it compares to breeze, puc2, ect!!!
 
thanks for your dedication rb2013

Yes by @Luckbad's good graces...Once the Q1-S arrives and is burnt in I will do a shootout between the F-1, X-1, Mutec, QS-1.
 
I would rate the F-1 right now heads above, at a clear #1, over the PUC2 lite with a subjective score of 150+.  It's that good.  The X-1 tie with the PUC2 at 130ish.  It's $59.
 
BTW the CA thread post above mentioned the Soulution 590 and the poster liked the Berkeley better.
 
The 590 is $4000!
http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-590#GwRZqbqSi5K4IeaR.97

 

[hugoboss]

i read ca several times they quick with dac technology news
but usb technology not quite fast compare to headfi , it's the regen and the ifi iusb 3.0 that got hot at there.
 
f1 xmos xcore 200 never mentioned at there (this is exclusive product from taobao china mainland)
no even one distributor yet at euro, us,uk. so it wil never got popular at ca.
also the price of simple unfinished is $150.
i think it will never popular at ca.
only aune (their cheap tube dac very popular) , audiogd (their dac even their power amp), cayin (tube amp very popular) brand that got a reputation in euro/ us/ uk as far as i remember till now.
but if euro or us or uk brand got this x core 200 in their new product  line it will be a different story
 
 
BUT If the rave keep going just like your post update everyday.
i think the f1 seller at china will got BOOM sales.
iam also ordered 1 already that little f1 still curious how will it compared to my ifi iusb 3 .
i already very impressed with the ifi micro iusb 3.0.
if they join force . that ifi iusb 3 plus dual head usb cable with separate power and data, plus f1 . i cant imagine the sound

 

[Caper]

  Nice!  Well I'll be curious as to your results with the F-1
 
Cheers!

 
My config will be as follow:
 
Intel NUC with a Sbooster Vbus2 isolator connected at USB port, totally disconnects the USB train from dirty 5v.
https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/sbooster-vbus-isolator
 
El cheapo USB cable for data transport.
 
Aqvox USB PSU
http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html
 
Intona USB Isolator powered by the Aqvox.
 
Supra USB cable to the F1 DDC.
 
And finally Oehlbach coax cable from the F1 to my Hegels coax input.
 
This should be a good solution and the final step in upgrading for now.
But I have an eye open for the Pro4A also when it´s available in about two weeks.
 
If this doesn´t play with better SQ than the old Pioneer DVD player over coax I will be dissapointed.

 

[rb2013]

  i read ca several times they quick with dac technology news
but usb technology not quite fast compare to headfi , it's the regen and the ifi iusb 3.0 that got hot at there.
 
f1 xmos xcore 200 never mentioned at there (this is exclusive product from taobao china mainland)
no even one distributor yet at euro, us,uk. so it wil never got popular at ca.
also the price of simple unfinished is $150.
i think it will never popular at ca.
only aune (their cheap tube dac very popular) , audiogd (their dac even their power amp), cayin (tube amp very popular) brand that got a reputation in euro/ us/ uk as far as i remember till now.
but if euro or us or uk brand got this x core 200 in their new product  line it will be a different story
 
 
BUT If the rave keep going just like your post update everyday.
i think the f1 seller at china will got BOOM sales.
iam also ordered 1 already that little f1 still curious how will it compared to my ifi iusb 3 .
i already very impressed with the ifi micro iusb 3.0.
if they join force . that ifi iusb 3 plus dual head usb cable with separate power and data, plus f1 . i cant imagine the sound

You are spot on!  They are simply hyper ventilating over the intona, before it was the Regen - at least for now.
 
The curated Recovery thread was going well - until the thread flamers started in - chased old REShaman into seclusion.  Got to have a thick skin in this blogging game.  Since he left the thread has devolved into another intona thread - like my old U12 thread did.  Oh well it was time for that one to close-up - too many pages became to unwieldy.  Just re-hashing the same stuff. 
 
So with these new guys - a perfect opportunity to start fresh.  You are right on these being a naked boards, but they are plug and play ready - just need a case - and a i2s socket if that's your poison.  Unlike some true DIY boards like the excellent Luckit WaveIO. http://luckit.biz
 
The Gustard U12 did get a mention and a thread.  But you would think the XMOS 200 series update would be discussed? 
 
Well maye the turn key Singxer SU-1 coming out in May will gain some attention.  For 300$ pretty sweet.  I do prefer the F-1, as it's power supply is more flexible and so can be upgraded easily, if not inexpensively.  Modding the SU-1 will likely require heavy duty PS mods like Alex did on the Melodious MX-U8.  But at least it has the Cyrstek CCHD clocks as std. - that's a PIA mod.
 

 
Your iFi iUSB 3.0 and dual head USB cable should be a great match for the F-1.
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

   
My config will be as follow:
 
Intel NUC with a Sbooster Vbus2 isolator connected at USB port, totally disconnects the USB train from dirty 5v.
https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/sbooster-vbus-isolator
 
El cheapo USB cable for data transport.
 
Aqvox USB PSU
http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html
 
Intona USB Isolator powered by the Aqvox.
 
Supra USB cable to the F1 DDC.
 
And finally Oehlbach coax cable from the F1 to my Hegels coax input.
 
This should be a good solution and the final step in upgrading for now.
But I have an eye open for the Pro4A also when it´s available in about two weeks.
 
If this doesn´t play with better SQ than the old Pioneer DVD player over coax I will be dissapointed.

Nice!  I would consider a VBUS Blocker as well - Sbooster make a good one cheap.
 
It should blow the DVD away!  Report what you find.
 
Cheers

 
 
PS It's looks like you have the VBUS blocker - just called it an isolator..

 

[Caper]

 
Nice!  I would consider a VBUS Blocker as well - Sbooster make a good one cheap.
 
It should blow the DVD away!  Report what you find.
 
Cheers

Yeah,VBUS blocker already on the way and will be here tomorrow.
I wrote that but you propably just missed it.
 
Will report my findings when I get the F1.
If this setup doesn´t blow that DVD away I guess I have to take a look at W10, maybe driven from USB stick or USB HDD.
Currenty using W7 MCE.
I really don´t want to mess with a Dual Boot.
Or maybe go wild and try Hackintosh on my NUC 

 
 
Thanks!

 

[rb2013]

  Yeah,VBUS blocker already on the way and will be here tomorrow.
I wrote that but you propably just missed it.
 
Will report my findings when I get the F1.
If this setup doesn´t blow that DVD away I guess I have to take a look at W10, maybe driven from USB stick or USB HDD.
Currenty using W7 MCE.
I really don´t want to mess with a Dual Boot.
Or maybe go wild and try Hackintosh on my NUC 

 
 
Thanks!

Well if not there is always the 'gizmo' parade...Regen, Regen w/LPS, Recovery. Recovery w/LPS, Jitterbug, DC iPurifier, iPurifier2, iUSB 3.0, Schiit Wyred, Audience Rp1a, JS-2 LPS, etc...