[abartels]

FYI
 
DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
Of course, there are several other chip versions, 10 - 12 - 16 and 32 cores available too.
 
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/101-xmos-multichannel-high-quality-usb-tofrom-i2sdsd-spdif-pcb.html
 
Above PCB design is without isolation, so not interesting enough for us, it's just informative meant.
 
It's always the question if the more powerful devices are the better sounding ones. In this case I am not sure, it's more design related than chip related,
but that's my 2 cents...
 

 

[roger7]

 
Hey thanks!  Then nada to that LPS - no free lunches.
 
I see a Hynes in my future - down the road...
 

 
Here is LPS comparison including Teddy Pardo and mentioned Keces DC-116
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/65016-great-big-power-supply-shootout-teddy-pardo-diy-wallwart/

 

[rb2013]

  FYI
 
DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
Of course, there are several other chip versions, 10 - 12 - 16 and 32 cores available too.
 
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/101-xmos-multichannel-high-quality-usb-tofrom-i2sdsd-spdif-pcb.html
 
Above PCB design is without isolation, so not interesting enough for us, it's just informative meant.
 
It's always the question if the more powerful devices are the better sounding ones. In this case I am not sure, it's more design related than chip related,
but that's my 2 cents...
 

Well good point Alex.  I think once I have a chance to do a close face-off in my main system of the F-1 vs the X-1 I will be able to say more.  They both use the same XU208 one with NDK SD clocks and a simpler design the other with the 'split' board design and USB isolation and Crystek CCHD-575 clocks.  So that's shed more light on the question.
 
Then when the DIYinHK DXIO Pro4a arrives, I'm assuming with the XU208, that as a comparison as well.
 
 
And some potential exciting news!  Someone PM'd with the possibly of lending me a Mutec MC-3+USB for a little trial.
 
Now that would be stiff competition for the F-1 and X-1.  I need to study a little more about this $1000 DDC - but what I have seen so far - pretty impressive.  Built in Galvanic isolation, excellent clocks, with a port for an external atomic clock running at 10Mhz (and maybe other freq's).  I'm thinking this is the new top dog - price no object - DDC.
 
 
 

 

[rb2013]

A little OT but interesting: Speaking of atomic clocks - reading through the 'uncurated' CA thread on the W4S Recovery - this link was posted -
http://audiotechnologies.gr/index_files/Page311.htm
 
This company Audio Technology makes some neat gear- like a tubed DAC that can be ordered with a OXCO clock or a Rubidum atom clock.  The

USBP-11​

USB player​

It's a USB only DAC - comes std with the generic TXCO JYEC clocks for 870 Euros, but for another 700 Euros can be ordered with OXCO clocks of their making.
And for ANOTHER 2500 Euros with an ATOMIC clock.  A very nice Rubidium one!  This really has my interest.  To bad it's limited in inputs to only USB.
 
But they do sell the Rubidum clock separately for 3650 Euros called the RCG-10:
 
 
So here is the interesting part - they quote the phase noise numbers for all three clocks:  the TXCO, OXCO, and the Atomic - so to compare to the NDKSD and the CCHD- 575:
 
Numbers in this order: Atomic Rubidum clock, OXCO, CCHD-575, NDK SD, TXCO JYEC (this is the 1st time I have seen accurate measurements for OEM JYEC TXCO clocks at 10Hz & 10kHz - these are often relabled 'Gustard', 'Melodious', 'Vanguard', etc...):
 
10 Hz:  -120dB, -110dB, -100dB, -112dB, -90dB
10KHz: -150dB, -140dB, -163dB, -156dB, -120dB
 
Soooo the at 10Hz the Atomic and OXCO are clearly far superior to the TXCO's even the NDK and CCHD - BUT!...  
 
At 10KHz the Crystek CCHD-575 crushes!  With the best reading by far -23dB better then the OXCO and -13dB better then the $4000 Rubidum clock.  The NDK SD is also excellent.  closer at 10Hz to the much more expensive alternatives - and not too far behind the CCHD at the high end.
 
Reminder the X-1 uses the NDK SD's and the F-1 the CCHD-575's - the el cheapo JYEC TXCO are not in the same league with either.  Yet these are the clocks that the Gustard, Breeze, Melodious use.
 
One note the Rubidum and OXCO clocks do have greater stability then the TXCO's: in decending order (all plus or minus) .000007ppm, 0.1ppm, 20ppm, 20ppm, 1ppm
So these more expensive clocks have orders of magnitude greater stability.  And over time TXCO's have greater drift - Crystek quotes 3ppm the 1st yr, <1ppm after.
 
Edit Correction - the NDK SD is better at 10Hz then both the OXCO and the CCHD-575.

 

[rb2013]

  FYI
 
DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
Of course, there are several other chip versions, 10 - 12 - 16 and 32 cores available too.
 
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/101-xmos-multichannel-high-quality-usb-tofrom-i2sdsd-spdif-pcb.html
 
Above PCB design is without isolation, so not interesting enough for us, it's just informative meant.
 
It's always the question if the more powerful devices are the better sounding ones. In this case I am not sure, it's more design related than chip related,
but that's my 2 cents...
 

Hey Alex, You are modding wisard - besides running an external DC connection any other mods you might suggest?  I'm already looking at replacing those 35V 100uf caps with Nichicons.

 

[rb2013]

F-1 Review Update:
 
Another long listening session last night at the 95Hr burnin mark.  Again ran all night with out a single unlock or freeze - that's like 4 days straight 24/7.  Same for the X-1 running in the office system - these have to be some of the most stable devices yet.
 
The sound is definitely blooming - the changes I noticed last night (listening to mostly female vocals) is a growing delicacy to the sound - finesse with intricate soft passages.  Very pleasing - really outstanding for something in this price range.  I notice the tone growing richer and fuller - now wondering if the W4S Recovery will be needed - the Regen is just great.  What a amazing SQ - some who say DDC's don't really matter much - have never heard this baby.  I know my system is highly refined and I'm very familiar to it's sound - listening nightly reading while the wifey watches her Lifetime movies - I always say to myself 'I hope tonight is not another one of those husband murders the wife episodes!'.  Anyway I digress.
 
I can hear distinct changes for the better with each passing day.
 
So today I will run the Isotek burin routine all day - for more information on the Isotek burnin disk check this out.  It is designed to do a few things:
http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/essentials/full-system-enhancer
 

A variety of tracks featuring specially developed algorithms, which create a unique set of signals to reduce burn-in time and ‘run-in’ equipment. The disc can also demagnetise audio and audio-visual components.

1. Perfect burn-in disc for all new components.
2. Full system demagnetization.
3. Simple, cost effective solution, which is considered an industry standard.

The Full System Enhancer CD is an intensive ‘workout’ for your audio system. The disc includes specially developed signals to help ‘run-in’ new equipment, as well as demagnetising existing hi-fi components and rejuvenating your entire system.
It is important to exercise an audio system across the full range of frequencies and amplitudes it may encounter in real life, and to this end the tones on this disc have been devised to cover the complete audio band from top to bottom, also ensuring that, for instance, high-amplitude signals are combined with high-speed ones.
In electronic terms, the required signals feature lots of high-speed activity coupled to some high-amplitude excursions. All of these signals have been produced according to strict mathematical criteria, so as to place the greatest stress on the important parts of a system – without, it is important to note, endangering any part of it.

 
While no fun to listen to  - I use it during every equipment burnin.

Cheers!

 

[b0bb]

  A little OT but interesting: Speaking of atomic clocks - reading through the 'uncurated' CA thread on the W4S Recovery - this link was posted -
http://audiotechnologies.gr/index_files/Page311.htm
 
This company Audio Technology makes some neat gear- like a tubed DAC that can be ordered with a OXCO clock or a Rubidum atom clock.  The

USBP-11​

USB player​

It's a USB only DAC - comes std with the generic TXCO JYEC clocks for 870 Euros, but for another 700 Euros can be ordered with OXCO clocks of their making.
And for ANOTHER 2500 Euros with an ATOMIC clock.  A very nice Rubidium one!  This really has my interest.  To bad it's limited in inputs to only USB.
 
But they do sell the Rubidum clock separately for 3650 Euros called the RCG-10:
 
 
So here is the interesting part - they quote the phase noise numbers for all three clocks:  the TXCO, OXCO, and the Atomic - so to compare to the NDKSD and the CCHD- 575:
 
Numbers in this order: Atomic Rubidum clock, OXCO, CCHD-575, NDK SD, TXCO JYEC (this is the 1st time I have seen accurate measurements for OEM JYEC TXCO clocks at 10Hz - these are often relabled 'Gustard', 'Melodious', 'Vanguard', etc...):
 
10 Hz:  -120dB, -110dB, -100dB, -112dB, -90dB
10KHz: -150dB, -140dB, -163dB, -156dB, -120dB
 
Soooo the at 10Hz the Atomic and OXCO are clearly far superior to the TXCO's even the NDK and CCHD - BUT!...  
 
At 10KHz the Crystek CCHD-575 crushes!  With the best reading by far -23dB better then the OXCO and -13dB better then the $4000 Rubidum clock.  The NDK SD is also excellent.  closer at 10Hz to the much more expensive alternatives - and not too far behind the CCHD at the high end.
 
Reminder the X-1 uses the NDK SD's and the F-1 the CCHD-575's - the el cheapo JYEC TXCO are not in the same league with either.  Yet these are the clocks that the Gustard, Breeze, Melodious use.
 
One note the Rubidum and OXCO clocks do have greater stability then the TXCO's: in decending order (all plus or minus) .000007ppm, 0.1ppm, 20ppm, 20ppm, 1ppm
So these more expensive clocks have orders of magnitude greater stability.  And over time TXCO's have greater drift - Crystek quotes 3ppm the 1st yr, <1ppm after.

 
Here is a miniature low power OCXO I am using with one of my DACs. Replaced the stock CCHD-575 which has superior  phase noise "on paper" by about 3-5dB @10Hz
 
Made quite a large difference in the imaging, very similar to the huge soundstage expansion you described in one of your F-1 listening sessions.
 
Bass was exceptionally deep, I am actually feeling the bass come up the chair thru the floor.
(Martin Logan Summit + Velodyne HGS18, the -3dB@12Hz measured by REW)

 

 

[Caper]

 
So today I will run the Isotek burin routine all day - for more information on the Isotek burnin disk check this out.  It is designed to do a few things:
http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/essentials/full-system-enhancer
 
 
While no fun to listen to  - I use it during every equipment burnin.

Cheers!

 
I actually have that disc laying here and never been used before.
Right now playing track 1 for small speakers and then going to play track 3.
 
Never believed in that but since I have nothing much to do right now I can let it play 

 

 

[rb2013]

   
Here is a miniature low power OCXO I am using with one of my DACs. Replaced the stock CCHD-575 which has superior  phase noise "on paper" by about 3-5dB @10Hz
 
Made quite a large difference in the imaging, very similar to the huge soundstage expansion you described in one of your F-1 listening sessions.
 
Bass was exceptionally deep, I am actually feeling the bass come up the chair thru the floor.
(Martin Logan Summit + Velodyne HGS18, the -3dB@12Hz measured by REW)

 

So your DAC is set-up to handle a 100Mhz clock?  I replaced the crappy XO in my DAC60 mod project with a Vanguard TXCO that made a nice difference - then added a W4S Remedy with the CCHD-975 to the DAC60 - an even bigger step up.
 
My DAC60 uses the R2R multi-bit PCM1704UK DACs - much less prone to clocking.  I see your DAC has the D-S Sabers.  The OXCO should make a bigger difference.  From what I understand the R2R DACs run multi-bits each clock cycle - the PCM1704 24-bit from the resistor ladder.  Where as the D-S DACS have to 're-create' those 24 bits from just 1-bit clocked a 256x per output sample.
 
From the Audio Technologies website:

 

** What is a clock?

Most commercial analog to digital converters are ΔΣ (delta-sigma) type.

These converters oversample audio at a very high rate, and  then use digital signal processing techniques to produce the output samples.

At 44.1 kHz a typical ΔΣ converter sampling clock runs at 256 times the output sample rate at 11.2896MHz.

This high speed oversampling clock determines the actual time instant when the analog signal is converted, and clock stability determines the final audio quality.

For a sampling system to function properly an extremely stable clock is required.

If the playback clock is not perfect additional distortion and noise is added.

Digital audio systems assume that the sampling process is perfect.

When the interval between samples varies during the analog to digital conversion then distortion and noise occurs.

From Mother of Tone article: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
R2R DACs:

In the CD-format chapter you have seen that digital numbers are translated into a staircase signal, and by rounding the steps, we get something that pretty much resembles the originally captured signal.
This translation process from numbers into voltage steps, is what happens in a R2R DA converter which is sometimes also called a "ladder-DAC" or "multibit-DAC", as resistors (the R's in R2R) are configured as an ascending series of voltage dividers.
Such a R2R converter is a static device, in that it is able to generate a clean voltage (with 16 bits resolution there are 65536 different voltages) and hold that voltage until another number is converted, or if numbers repeat - for an infinitely long time, while maintaining an extremely low noise level.
In order to achieve a certain level of performance, the resistors (R's) inside the converter chip must be precisely trimmed, which can make a device very expensive to manufacture, especially when true 24-bit resolution is required.

 
D-S DACs

In this conversion technique, a single switch replaced the precision resistors of the R2R DAC, and it was believed (and shown to a certain extent) that if only the switch was toggled fast enough, one could also achieve many different voltages.
If for example the switch is more often switched to 5V than to 0V, and if that switch-signal is run through a low-pass filter then the output voltage will also be closer to 5V, than to 0V, plus lots of noise.
This fast switching technique is employed in sigma-delta conversion and it is also the technical foundation of the newly introduced SACD or DSD format.
As a 16 bit R2R DAC is able to generate 65536 different static voltages, and a single switch can only generate 2 different voltages (hi and low), a high switching frequency (usually in the range of a couple of MegaHertz, and achieved through oversampling) is necessary for proper operation and thus, much noise will be produced by the switching process in a sigma-delta converter.
In fact, for any practical application, the noise-level is much higher than the signal that is to be reproduced.
Therefore, this inacceptable high noise-level is shaped into higher-frequencies, as it is believed that high-frequency noise is outside the human listening range and will not degrade sound quality.
As a side effect of this high-order noise-shaping even higher noise levels are generated, residing in the high-frequency region.
To our surprise, in the technical specification of those sigma-delta DACs very low noise-levels are mentioned, and by reading the data-sheets, one could have the illusion, that a decent sound quality would be attainable by such a device.
In fact, the total noise-output is never stated in the data-sheets, and measurements only mention in-band-noise up to 20kHz, suggesting that higher frequency noise has no effect on fidelity.
Of course with this eye-closing practice only those can be fooled that also have closed ears.
In plain english: sigma-delta DACs are coarse noise-generators and when measured the way they should be measured they never make it to 16-bit resolution, don't even think about 24 bits.
As some engineers realized that the el-cheapo method did not lead to satisfying fidelity, because with 1-bit switching performance the quantization noise level was just too much, new converters came up, being called "multi-level sigma-delta".
By increasing the number of voltages from 2 (1-bit) to 5 or more (multi-level), the quantization noise could be reduced.
As this was still not satisfactory, some companies started introducing more levels and coined the term "multibit sigma-delta), as they now use 32 or 64 voltage- or switching-levels, which make up 5 or 6-bits.

 
He uses the 32-bit AKM multi-segment D-S DAC (I believe the first 4 bits are R2R then D-S for the rest).  Alex Peychev of APL takes those 1st 4 R2R bits and runs 6 DACs per channel to create 24bit R2R hybrid design - that's what's in my APL DAC.
 
 
Those OXCO's are very cool!

 

[rb2013]

   
I actually have that disc laying here and never been used before.
Right now playing track 1 for small speakers and then going to play track 3.
 
Never believed in that but since I have nothing much to do right now I can let it play 

 

Well I don't know if makes a difference versus playing just music - but my audio OCD likes it!

 
Speaking of Audio OCD - The W4S Recovery arrived today - so I swapped it in for the Regen.  7.5VDC LPS/Dc iPurifier - iPurifier2 in between the F-1 and the Recovery.
 
Cold out of the box better then the Regen but by only a few percent - at least right now.  A tad more space and a touch wider sound stage.  No change in the tonal signature - maybe just a bit lighter on the vocals.  I say I do like it better then the Regen - and I'm sure after 200 hrs burnin - it will get better.
 
Once the F-1 and X-1 finish their 200 hr run in will do some swapping around of USB gizmos and PS's.  Last piece of the puzzle a Curious 200mm USB cable for running between the DDC and Recovery or Regen.
 
Note on this uncurated W4S Recovery thread on CA a lot of folks like the Intona - but a few have commented on compatibly issues.  And frequent firmware changes (which require sending the Intona back to Europe for updates).  I will sit this one out for the time being.
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/w4s-and-other-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-fixers-non-curated-27636/index4.html

 

[Caper]

I think I will let you play with all your new toy´s and when you are done and decide what not to keep...pls mess me 

Pretty sure all those things not qualified in your system would be just fine here.
 
I have been close to push down that buy button several times on the Intona but resisted so far.
Just read that link and one guy is extremely impressed by it and the fact it sounds at it best solo, no other stuff connected.
Would make things so much easier.
I wounder if the standard version would do or do I have to get the industrial?

 

[rb2013]

  I think I will let you play with all your new toy´s and when you are done and decide what not to keep...pls mess me 

Pretty sure all those things not qualified in your system would be just fine here.
 
I have been close to push down that buy button several times on the Intona but resisted so far.
Just read that link and one guy is extremely impressed by it and the fact it sounds at it best solo, no other stuff connected.
Would make things so much easier.
I wounder if the standard version would do or do I have to get the industrial?

No audio difference from the std and the industrial.  Just a higher voltage spike protection.
 
Yes - many like it - but some have had connection issues - like with the Berkeley Audio USB.
 
And some have had issues with XMOS DDCs and the Recovery - no issues here with the F-1.  Note there has been a board revision on the Recovery - I have the latest Rev B version.  Uptone had the same thing on the original Regen (the green) and revised it and released the amber  - the one I have.  They upgraded everyone's board - great service from those fine folks!  This is why I'm holding off on the Intona - hoping for a 2.0 version with better clocks.
 
Well it will take a few weeks to sort through all the permutations.  But it won't  be nearly as bad the 17 6922 tube review I did (see my moniker) that got me to 'Contributor' status from the fine folks here at Headfi.  That took 7-8 hours a day for a full week of tube rolling!
 
Looking forward to tonight listening session with the Recovery and a bottle of small batch Elijah Craig.

 

[abartels]

 

  FYI
 
DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
Of course, there are several other chip versions, 10 - 12 - 16 and 32 cores available too.
 
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/101-xmos-multichannel-high-quality-usb-tofrom-i2sdsd-spdif-pcb.html
 
Above PCB design is without isolation, so not interesting enough for us, it's just informative meant.
 
It's always the question if the more powerful devices are the better sounding ones. In this case I am not sure, it's more design related than chip related,
but that's my 2 cents...
 

Hey Alex, You are modding wisard - besides running an external DC connection any other mods you might suggest?  I'm already looking at replacing those 35V 100uf caps with Nichicons.

Hi Bob,
 
Most important is as less as much noise in psu, and please feed it with it's own R-Core, and if possible, connect that R-Core to a powerfilter, the ones I used in my dac, this really does the trick.
 
Changing caps should also improve SQ, but first things first, external psu for crystals, burnin-in for 150 hours and start listening to it

 

[b0bb]

 
So your DAC is set-up to handle a 100Mhz clock?  I replaced the crappy XO in my DAC60 mod project with a Vanguard TXCO that made a nice difference - then added a W4S Remedy with the CCHD-975 to the DAC60 - an even bigger step up.
 
My DAC60 uses the R2R multi-bit PCM1704UK DACs - much less prone to clocking.  I see your DAC has the D-S Sabers.  The OXCO should make a bigger difference.  From what I understand the R2R DACs run multi-bits each clock cycle - the PCM1704 24-bit from the resistor ladder.  Where as the D-S DACS have to 're-create' those 24 bits from just 1-bit clocked a 256x per output sample.
 
From the Audio Technologies website:
From Mother of Tone article: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
R2R DACs:
 
D-S DACs
 
He uses the 32-bit AKM multi-segment D-S DAC (I believe the first 4 bits are R2R then D-S for the rest).  Alex Peychev of APL takes those 1st 4 R2R bits and runs 6 DACs per channel to create 24bit R2R hybrid design - that's what's in my APL DAC.
 
 
Those OXCO's are very cool!

 
Thanks, the OCXO was an unexpected improvement, on paper the CCHD-575 would have been just as good if phase noise was the only measure, it clearly was not the case from the listening test.
 
The DDC is a big part of the equation, the one I am using on the DAC is a modified Amanero with CCHD-957s. I2S output.
The board has 6xADP-150s plus a LT3042 primary regulator, 0.8uV noise.

 
In fact, the total noise-output is never stated in the data-sheets, and measurements only mention in-band-noise up to 20kHz, suggesting that higher frequency noise has no effect on fidelity.
 
This is one reason I never cared for DS DACs in general, the ESS Saber series being the exception. The bulk of my current inventory is R2R (Schitt Yggy, Soekris DAM1021, Philips TDA1541A).
 
I find the ESS Hyperstream modulator in the Saber32 quite exceptional in that the noise is at -140dBFS up to 200kHz, indeed this is the one of the main claims of their IP, as the snippet from ESS's Hyperstream patent shows.
 


Patent reference is on the right side of the pic if there is any interest.
 
The giant spur at 3MHz is one reason why implementation is so important, if vendors do not have the correct analog post processing, the spur being only 40dB down causes no end of havoc.
Adding to the complication is the use of cheap opamps in the I/V that will struggle in the 2-4MHz range.

 

[Caper]

 
No audio difference from the std and the industrial.  Just a higher voltage spike protection.
 
Yes - many like it - but some have had connection issues - like with the Berkeley Audio USB.
 
And some have had issues with XMOS DDCs and the Recovery - no issues here with the F-1.  Note there has been a board revision on the Recovery - I have the latest Rev B version.  Uptone had the same thing on the original Regen (the green) and revised it and released the amber  - the one I have.  They upgraded everyone's board - great service from those fine folks!  This is why I'm holding off on the Intona - hoping for a 2.0 version with better clocks.
 
Well it will take a few weeks to sort through all the permutations.  But it won't  be nearly as bad the 17 6922 tube review I did (see my moniker) that got me to 'Contributor' status from the fine folks here at Headfi.  That took 7-8 hours a day for a full week of tube rolling!
 
Looking forward to tonight listening session with the Recovery and a bottle of small batch Elijah Craig.

Ordered the Intona standard.
Should be here in a couple of day´s, way before the F1 I also ordered 

 
Interesting to hear if I will hear any difference from the configuration I now have!