[YanaMJ]

Out of curiosity between the 2 valves for my Xduoo TA-20:
Mullard 12AU7 and jj electronic ecc82 which one has a more mellow and non-fatiguing sound?

I don't know the Mullard so I can't answer for them but the JJ gold are more fatiguing than my Sylvania for example. I'd be happy to know for the Mullard too.

 

[hmscott]

Out of curiosity between the 2 valves for my Xduoo TA-20:
Mullard 12AU7 and jj electronic ecc82 which one has a more mellow and non-fatiguing sound?

None of the tubes in the TA-20 were particularly "fatiguing" or shrill as some describe some of the tubes I've tried, the emphasis can be on the bright/harsh side like the JJ Electronics - a thin sound overall, or mid/bass heavy in comparison with the JJ Electronic like the Mullard.

I kind of find heavy Bass fatiguing - tiring or wearing on me - just from the pressure changes against my eardrum from beating repetitive Bass, but I don't EQ headphones so I don't force more Bass than is natural from the driver, but it is a matter of personal taste.

The TA-20 Tube/SS amplification is sweet sounding, not dry like the A90 - the original tubes/JJ are more toward that thin sound I don't enjoy much. Some might hear it as etched or even fragile, not a good solid meaty sound.

Again, it takes some time and gained experience to compliment your components / headphones and match them together into something you find specially leaning to the sound you enjoy. For me that is the TA-20 + 12AT7/E80CC + Hifiman Ananda/HE6 SE V2 + Sennheiser HD660S. The D90 MQA is the solid source needed, there are many other candidates for all the positions in the setup. The FiiO M15 puts DAC/AMP together into one "small" box that is portable, no tubes, yet the sound is better than the A90, but not quite up to the TA-20 with my favorite tubes.

In general the 12AU7's to me sound thinner, and the 12AT7's sound more full and spacious, with harder hitting Bass and more extended high's, with more air and dynamics.

Perhaps if I spent more $$$ on the sought after 12AU7's I might change my views - if the affordable 12AU7's did for me what the much more affordable 12AT7's do for me I'd recommend them, but for now I haven't found any affordable 12AU7's to recommend over my favorite 12AT7's, even the cheaper 12AT7's sound great. And, again, I'm talking about $100/pair 12AT7 tubes to $200/pair tubes 12AU7 tubes.

These are the 12AU7's I am eyeing next, but Mullard 12AT7 NOS tube's have been winning out over the 12AU7's for a few months of purchases

Matched Pair Mazda NOS/NIB ECC82/12AU7 tubes - France - Test NOS -$199/pair

These Mullard '58 / '68 12AT7's are half the price and are my 3rd best sounding tubes, behind the Brimar 6060, and top Haltron E80CC's

Matched Pair Mullard NOS/NIB M8162/ECC81/12AT7 Dual getter support tubes - $99/pair

I think my Haltron E80CC's look like the very clean build of the Philips Harleen made E80CC's, but some other Haltron E80CC's look like Tungsram, and get good reviews.

There are out of Russia and Ukraine brand new never opened till tested Tungsram E80CC tubes for $30-$50 each, and they will match a pair for you upon request. Some have more expensive shipping and handling charges, and they will take a long time in transit + I've heard of packages going missing as well in/out of Russia during the Pandemic, so I've steered away myself. But the costs are low and you might get a nice pair of E80CC's for under $100 to try

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Tungsram+E80CC&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1000

These are a good example of what my Haltron E80CC's look like. Mine have either E80CC, E80CC/6085, or 6085 only lettering/labels. Be careful cleaning them, as my Microfibre cloth apparently had solvent remnants soaked into it and it wiped the lettering clean off of one of my E80CC labeled tubes, that lettering is always mottled as paint drops off over the years. The labels are very fragile.

Matched Pair E80CC HALTRON/ Philip HEERLEN Gold Pin

Those gold pins look very dirty, so they looked stored out of the original box. Mine look gold, with some oxidation that wipes off. Those still are the first I've seen listed on eBay for quite a while.

Here is the equivalent with Philips markings / box for a bit more:

Matched pair Philips E80CC gold pins Heerlen NOS with original boxes free ship!

And, the prices go up from there:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nk...&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_sop=15

 

[cirodts]

None of the tubes in the TA-20 were particularly "fatiguing" or shrill as some describe some of the tubes I've tried, the emphasis can be on the bright side like the JJ Electronics - a thin sound overall, or mid/bass heavy in comparison with the JJ Electronic like the Mullard.

I kind of find heavy Bass fatiguing - tiring or wearing on me - just from the pressure changes against my eardrum from beating repetitive Bass, but I don't EQ headphones so I don't force more Bass than is natural from the driver, but it is a matter of personal taste.

The TA-20 Tube/SS amplification is sweet sounding, not dry like the A90 - the original tubes/JJ are more toward that thin sound I don't enjoy much. Some might hear it as etched or even fragile, not a good solid meaty sound.

Again, it takes some time and gained experience to compliment your components / headphones and match them together into something you find specially leaning to the sound you enjoy. For me that is the TA-20 + 12AT7/E80CC + Hifiman Ananda/HE6 SE V2 + Sennheiser HD660S. The D90 MQA is the solid source needed, there are many other candidates for all the positions in the setup. The FiiO M15 puts DAC/AMP together into one "small" box that is portable, no tubes, yet the sound is better than the A90, but not quite up to the TA-20 with my favorite tubes.

In general the 12AU7's to me sound thinner, and the 12AT7's sound more full and spacious, with harder hitting Bass and more extended high's, with more air and dynamics.

Perhaps if I spent more $$$ on the sought after 12AU7's I might change my views - if the affordable 12AU7's did for me what the much more affordable 12AT7's do for me I'd recommend them, but for now I haven't found any affordable 12AU7's to recommend over my favorite 12AT7's, even the cheaper 12AT7's sound great. And, again, I'm talking about $100/pair 12AT7 tubes to $200/pair tubes 12AU7 tubes.

These are the 12AU7's I am eyeing next, but Mullard 12AT7 NOS tube's have been winning out over the 12AU7's for a few months of purchases

Matched Pair Mazda NOS/NIB ECC82/12AU7 tubes - France - Test NOS -$199/pair

These Mullard '58 / '68 12AT7's are half the price and are my 3rd best sounding tubes, behind the Brimar 6060, and top Haltron E80CC's

Matched Pair Mullard NOS/NIB M8162/ECC81/12AT7 Dual getter support tubes - $99/pair

I think my Haltron E80CC's look like the very clean build of the Philips Harleen made E80CC's, but some other Haltron E80CC's look like Tungsram, and get good reviews.

There are out of Russia and Ukraine brand new never opened till tested Tungsram E80CC tubes for $30-$50 each, and they will match a pair for you upon request. Some have more expensive shipping and handling charges, and they will take a long time in transit + I've heard of packages going missing as well in/out of Russia during the Pandemic, so I've steered away myself. But the costs are low and you might get a nice pair of E80CC's for under $100 to try

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Tungsram+E80CC&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1000

These are a good example of what my Haltron E80CC's look like. Mine have either E80CC, E80CC/6085, or 6085 only lettering/labels. Be careful cleaning them, as my Microfibre cloth apparently had solvent remnants soaked into it and it wiped the lettering clean off of one of my E80CC labeled tubes, that lettering is always mottled as paint drops off over the years. The labels are very fragile.

Matched Pair E80CC HALTRON/ Philip HEERLEN Gold Pin

Those gold pins look very dirty, so they looked stored out of the original box. Mine look gold, with some oxidation that wipes off. Those still are the first I've seen listed on eBay for quite a while.

Here is the equivalent with Philips markings / box for a bit more:

Matched pair Philips E80CC gold pins Heerlen NOS with original boxes free ship!

And, the prices go up from there:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nk...&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_sop=15

thanks, so do you recommend the 12At7 with a fuller and more meaty sound, are they compatible right for the ta-20?
At the same price, the mullard 12AT7 is better than the 12AU7 vreo or am I wrong?

 

[hmscott]

thanks, so do you recommend the 12At7 with a fuller and more meaty sound, are they compatible right for the ta-20?
At the same price, the mullard 12AT7 is better than the 12AU7 vreo or am I wrong?

Yes, of course I'd already read about others using the 12AT7/12AX7/E80cc on the TA-20 and TA-30, but I double checked with Xduoo before trying them myself for the first time, I asked Xduoo if the 12AT7/12AX7 were compatible in the TA-20, here is what Xduoo through Hifigo said about tube compatibility on 2 occasions:

"...is it possible to substitute the 12AU7 with 12AT7 or 12AX7 : Xdoo reply yes no problem."

"...E80CC ( 6085 ) is ok to match with TA20 and TA30 xduoo replied, and they thank you for your questions and testing. "

I haven't done that specific comparison, reissue Mullard 12AU7 pair vs reissue Mullard 12AT7 pair, that would be a great contribution if you bought both and compared them here in the thread.

BTW, I haven't mentioned before that A/B comparison as such isn't really possible for tubes in the same device as it takes time to remove/insert and then wait to warm up the tubes to the same stable operating temperature - about 20-30 minutes, by then the typical immediacy of A/B comparisons is lost... so you need longer listening notes - say a playlist that covers your favorite songs vs audio spectrum and attack notes, and you'll want to write down your observations in a notebook - on a piece of paper - or txt/doc file on your computer/tablet for each tube after it has warmed up to then compare - A/B - your own notes for each pair of tubes.

I'd love to set up 2 TA-20's to then warm up two sets of different tubes to switch between and compare, an actual real-time A/B comparison, maybe someday

If you are only going to be able to choose one pair of tubes go ahead and get either one, roll the dice, toss the bones, Eenie Meenie Miney Moe, rock paper scissors, as you'll eventually want 2 different pairs to compare. I'd say get the Mullard 12AU7 to compare against the (Shuguang) 12AU7 that comes with the TA-20, but then you wouldn't get to hear the 12AT7 right away...but there's no rush...

Please don't kill yourself trying to hear the differences, you can leisurely enjoy the music for 20+ hours - on each pair of tubes - before thinking about making comparisons, it will just come to ou at some point, hey I didn't hear *that* on the XXX tubes, but I do on these. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it is more subtle, you'll see... hear it for yourself, eventually.

You may hear the differences right away, or you might not, it is an ability gained over many hours, weeks, months, years, and it gets more discerning as time moves on - as long as you keep listening all that time. And, the differences will be more/less apparent in over-the-ear headphones vs IEMs, and Dynamic vs Planar Headphones and Planar IEMs.

What tubes have you tried in your TA-20 so far?

 

[chillysalsa]

The Mullard I tried was quite smooth and lush, at least compared to a JAN and RCA tube. I didn't have any JJ tubes, only used those as 12AX7 tubes in a guitar amp, as they have a bit more drive and harmonics.

 

[hmscott]

The Mullard I tried was quite smooth and lush, at least compared to a JAN and RCA tube. I didn't have any JJ tubes, only used those as 12AX7 tubes in a guitar amp, as they have a bit more drive and harmonics.

What are your favorite tubes so far when listening on the TA-20?

 

[chillysalsa]

My favorite have been Japanese 5963 Toshiba tubes, these are an industrial 12AU7 designed for low noise allocations, but they are pricey to find now.

 

[cirodts]

I have only tried the standard tubes from the TA-20 but they say they are bad, I would prefer a more meaty sound.

 

[S Crowther]

What are your favorite tubes so far when listening on the TA-20?

Amperex Bugle Boy.

 

[YanaMJ]

Amperex Bugle Boy.

Lots of people say the Amperex Holland are the best for TA-20 but hard to find in Europe

 

[YanaMJ]

I have only tried the standard tubes from the TA-20 but they say they are bad, I would prefer a more meaty sound.

What is a "meaty sound" ?

 

[hmscott]

I have only tried the standard tubes from the TA-20 but they say they are bad, I would prefer a more meaty sound.

They aren't so bad, they are just not very "tubey" sounding - they reminded me of the Topping A90 sound, a bit thin and dry.

They are certainly listenable, and running them will "break-in" the TA-20 - you want to test it fully during the return period to bring out any "bugs" in the unit so you won't run into problems needed to fix under warranty. Unlikely as that is in either case.

The Shuguang factory was shutdown due to encroaching suburbs and planned to move, but it still hasn't reopened that I am aware of, and the stock of their higher end tubes have been dwindling - at least I see far fewer shops listing them for sale on AliExpress. Here's a few that might be worth checking out before they disappear altogether...

PAPRI Shuguang 12AU7-T Vacuum Tube Replace Tube For Amplifier Audio HIFI DIY Factory Tested Matched - select Color: 1 Pair, the boxed Matched Set

Shuguang tube 12AU7-T instead of 12AU7 ECC82 vacuum tube quality product precision (pairing) - select Color: 2pcs

And if you ever need a replacement stock tube for the 12AU7, these look like the same to me:

SHUGUANG Tube 12AU7 12AX7 12AT7 made in China - 12AU7, 12AT7, and 12AX7 versions for sale, maybe the 12AT7/12AX7 will sound better?

The PSVANE Cossor series are "different" in that they have tube length inner Black coating which gives them a unique look:

PSVANE COSSOR 12AX7 12AU7 12AT7 ECC83 ECC82 Vacuum Tube HiFi Audio DIY Vintage Tube Pre-amp Guitar AMP - Select Color: COSSOR 12AT7-1Pair

I haven't heard those, but I do enjoy the similarly inner coated Tung-Sol 12AU7 Black Glass tubes, but those are also very rare - but they do turn up on eBay from time to time, here are some links that describe them:
https://tubemaze.info/tung-sol-12au7-black-glass/
http://www.nostubestore.com/2013/08/tung-sol-12au7-usa.html

There are a few other Shuguang Matched Pair boxed set tubes I recall, but I am not seeing them on AliExpress right now, I'll add them later if I find them.

What is a "meaty sound" ?

Everyone eventually has their own definition of "Full" or "Meaty" sound vs. "Thin" or "shrill" sound from a tube/amplifier.

For me the tubes with "impact", thick mid-range, full treble extension without tizzy/sparkle distortion, and a wide sound stage that almost or does wrap-around your head. A Full Sound or Dynamic Sound - as opposed to Thin sound.

In comparison, it is more clearly obvious than described - until you've heard it then you will recognize the description - and add your own words of description.

I bought my FiiO M15 first, and even though it has less specification for wattage than my Topping A90, to my ears the M15 is a more "Full" sound and the A90 is more thin, but not shrill - it is without distortion that I can hear.

Without having heard the M15 first for a few months I might not have realized - or compared - the A90 sound to anything else for a while, and not been motivated to look for that tube sound I remembered as a kid - SS sounded like "junk" back then, more a curiosity than pleasurable listening - in comparison to the long optimized tube sound.

Today there are SS amps that sound like that to me, "junk" or "yuck", the A90 is not that, it sounds great, but it isn't as enjoyable to me as the FiiO M15, or the Xdu00 TA-20 with my favorite tubes.

The FiiO M15 shows me it is possible to make a great full sounding SS AMP without tubes, but even so it isn't all the way there yet either.

Anyway, it's a process, I've been listening to Stereo since the late 1960's, before the Moon landing, and even though I was happy with my Solid State amps "Class A" and Class "AB" for most of that time, I was more interested in the source material and entertainment than optimizing the sound beyond "impact".

Now that I am listening for enjoyment to things I have heard many times, finding the right equipment - headphone AMP, DAC, headphones, IEM's is a nice pastime and to make it more interesting re-listening to old favorites - and discovering new sounds and music as well as discovering older music I missed, I find optimizing the sound helps differentiate it for me and make it more interesting.

I haven't heard my favorite music sound this good ever before

Lots of people say the Amperex Holland are the best for TA-20 but hard to find in Europe

I've had to go to Netherlands based dealers on eBay or outside of eBay, for the most part, some German dealers also have reasonable prices on new stock of Heerlen Factory Philips Tubes. I'm looking to try Philips Heerlen E180cc tubes some time soon...and that reminds me - the Philips Miniwatt 12AU7's and 12AT7's are also worth trying - as are most/all tubes made by Philips Factory in Heerlen, Holland.

 

[cirodts]

What is a "meaty sound" ?

Sorry, I meant full-bodied sound not thin

 

[YanaMJ]

Sorry, I meant full-bodied sound not thin

Ok thanks

 

[cirodts]

I think this world of valves is fantastic and gives infinite choices, having the stock valves to start with what do you recommend between Mullard 12AU7 Preamp Vacuum Tube or jj electronic 12AU7