Why Oxygen-free copper cables sound no different than ETP copper

[CompressionalFlagellation]

There is no scientific basis for oxygen-free copper guitar cords sounding better than “normal” copper-based...cables.

In fact, purveyors of the oxygen-free copper-cable myth rarely tell you that “normal” copper for electrical use is already 99.90% oxygen-free. Official oxygen-free copper ( OFC ) is 99.99% oxygen-free.

Before we get into science here, let’s use common sense or “our noggin” as dear old mom used to say. Do you really think that you can hear any difference in audio quality when two copper types differ by only .09 % in oxygen content? You are completely correct if you answered this way: “Jeez, wise sage, that really is a tiny difference between copper types. I don’t see how I could hear any difference with such a small discrepancy in oxygen content.”

If you agree with that common-sense answer, you are one smart cookie and barking up the right tree. Let’s now explore the tests that prove there is no detectable audio differences between guitar cables made of OFC and those made of 99.90% oxygen-free copper.

First, let’s get one thing straight: The copper type in a Death Valley guitar cable is anything but “regular old” copper. It is known as Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP) copper. It is the best copper to use for electrical applications, bar none. It is made to stringent specifications and used in everything from computers to spacecraft wiring.

Now check this out: Electrical conductivity specifications for C11000 ETP copper (99.90% oxygen-free copper) and C10200 (99.99% oxygen-free copper) are IDENTICAL.

Now read that last paragraph again. We didn’t say that the electrical conductivity specifications between the two coppers were “close” or “nearly the same” or “in the ballpark.” We said that the electrical conductivity was IDENTICAL. EXACTLY THE SAME CONDUCTIVITY. There is NO measurable difference in conductivity between OFC (theirs) and 99.9% copper (ours). This is according to a private firm called the American Society for Testing and Materials ( ASTM ), who runs around testing stuff like this to unimaginable degrees of accuracy.

If electrical conductivity between the two coppers is exactly the same, then there is no way you can possibly hear any difference between guitar cables made of the different coppers.

Then why make oxygen-free copper if it doesn't conduct electricity better? BECAUSE IT'S NOT USED IN APPLICATIONS TO CONDUCT ELECTRICITY. There are other uses where nothing but OFC will do.

Oxygen-free copper is valued more for its chemical purity than its electrical conductivity. OFC is used in plasma deposition (sputtering) processes, including the manufacture of semiconductors and super-conductor components. It’s also the bomb in high-vacuum devices such as particle accelerators. It’s critical to use OFC in these apps because the release of oxygen (and/or other impurities) can cause undesirable chemical reactions with other materials in the local environment, i.e. expensive machines blow up and make a big mess and hurt people.

So lets sum up:

1. OFC in guitar cables makes no difference in sound (because — according to the ASTM — there is no difference in conductivity between OFC and ETP coppers).

2. OFC in particle accelerators will prevent a mushroom cloud when you turn on the particle accelerator.

DeathValleyCables

BTW, I am just a regular paying customer of these cables and have no stake in their sales.

 

[mark_h]

I have two very simple questions for you.

1. How many sounds can I hear?
2. To what .0*% does my brain process these sounds differently each time? (Precise scientific equations required to illustrate your understanding of this)

 

[CompressionalFlagellation]

ah, hmm, well -- I won't pretend I wrote the article here, as you can see from the link I posted to the company who wrote it. I just think the article makes a lot more sense than, "dude, you just gotta listen -- everyone's different."

That logic might apply to headphones, tubes vs ss, etc, but with cables -- and as wildly as they can be priced -- I'd have to reject that as the myth that it is.

While I understand everyone probably hears thing differently, I believe everything in this audio game can be measured -- it's all physics, not magic.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation /img/forum/go_quote.gif ah, hmm, well -- I won't pretend I wrote the article here, as you can see from the link I posted to the company who wrote it. I just think the article makes a lot more sense than, "dude, you just gotta listen -- everyone's different." That logic might apply to headphones, tubes vs ss, etc, but with cables -- and as wildly as they can be priced -- I'd have to reject that as the myth that it is. While I understand everyone probably hears thing differently, I believe everything in this audio game can be measured -- it's all physics, not magic.

You were done before you even got started.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation /img/forum/go_quote.gif but with cables -- and as wildly as they can be priced -- I'd have to reject that as the myth that it is.

Cables do make a difference. If not in the type of copper then in other areas that can effect SQ. However, as has been said many times before, there comes a point were returns diminish to the extreme.

 

[CompressionalFlagellation]

Ok, my only point in all this, is that $400 cables are not going to have a perceivable difference in sound to that of a $40 cable, assuming they're made from the same material and have the same general construction -- if you think there is, show me the data.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact, purveyors of the oxygen-free copper-cable myth rarely tell you that “normal” copper for electrical use is already 99.90% oxygen-free. Official oxygen-free copper ( OFC ) is 99.99% oxygen-free. Before we get into science here, let’s use common sense or “our noggin” as dear old mom used to say. Do you really think that you can hear any difference in audio quality when two copper types differ by only .09 % in oxygen content?

You make the wrong calculation: The oxygen content differs by 900%.


Quote:

Now check this out: Electrical conductivity specifications for C11000 ETP copper (99.90% oxygen-free copper) and C10200 (99.99% oxygen-free copper) are IDENTICAL... If electrical conductivity between the two coppers is exactly the same, then there is no way you can possibly hear any difference between guitar cables made of the different coppers.

Why that? Since when is conductivity responsible for sonic differences? That's a common misconception even conveyed by cable-sound apologists. Even 5% of the conductivity of copper would be sufficient for typical interconnect applications to guarantee (so-called) accurate signal transfer. Note: Conductivity by itself is frequency-neutral. There must be other effects at work which make for the sonic differences -- just don't ask me which. I can't tell if oxygen is one of the factors and if how it influences the signal. But according to experienced people in the electronics industry it does have an effect.
.

 

[LostOne.TR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, my only point in all this, is that $400 cables are not going to have a perceivable difference in sound to that of a $40 cable, assuming they're made from the same material and have the same general construction -- if you think there is, show me the data.

If the only difference in the cable is one is $400, and one is $40, sure I'd definitely give you that. Same wire, same connectors, same whatever else is put into construction, then it's the same cable to me. Don't think anyone would argue with you on that one. Would be like buying a cable new @ full retail, and then picking one up for an amazing deal used.

Quick question about this death valley cable, are their prices the same as other guitar cable makers (who actually use the OFC cables)?

 

[Liver]

Does it really matter?

 

[CompressionalFlagellation]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOne.TR /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the only difference in the cable is one is $400, and one is $40, sure I'd definitely give you that.

Note I said "same general construction", not "exact same construction."

 

[Currawong]

Ever noticed that people who mention science with these issues then go on to make un-scientific generalised conclusions?

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever noticed that people who mention science with these issues then go on to make un-scientific generalised conclusions?

As long as you dont use your ears to make the descision, we all know that people can hear the difference between tubes and amps and sources but if its a cable then it must be Placebo.

Dont you get sick of people who have no experience telling you what you can and cannot hear? Its sooooooo obnoxious and childish.

 

[CompressionalFlagellation]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif As long as you dont use your ears to make the descision, we all know that people can hear the difference between tubes and amps and sources but if its a cable then it must be Placebo. Dont you get sick of people who have no experience telling you what you can and cannot hear? Its sooooooo obnoxious and childish.

I am not speaking of amps/DACs/etc.

I have an expensive sound system with speakers in my living room. When I put it together, I shopped around for cables. I tried some big brand names -- all quite expensive. Then one day a friend from LA in the recording industry showed me a well made, but pratically nameless cable; it was a lot cheaper.

Long story short, after extensive testing, the big brand name cables were returned.

And now as I build myself a little headphone set up, I am shocked to see the same uber-expensive cable non-sense.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not speaking of amps/DACs/etc. I have an expensive sound system with speakers in my living room. When I put it together, I shopped around for cables. I tried some big brand names -- all quite expensive. Then one day a friend from LA in the recording industry showed me a well made, but pratically nameless cable; it was a lot cheaper. Long story short, after extensive testing, the big brand name cables were returned. And now as I build myself a little headphone set up, I am shocked to see the same uber-expensive cable non-sense.

Why were they returned? Give us the details.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif As long as you dont use your ears to make the descision, we all know that people can hear the difference between tubes and amps and sources but if its a cable then it must be Placebo. Dont you get sick of people who have no experience telling you what you can and cannot hear? Its sooooooo obnoxious and childish.

Same to you considering you compare differences in amps (differences in circuit, caps, soldering, pots, etc etc ) and sources (Especially when it comes to turntables and phono-stages), to differences in shielded copper/silver.