[ert]

What's the general consensus on the lack of electrical safety certifications (UL, ETL, CSA, etc) on HP amps (and high-end audio components in general)? I've been looking for HP electronics for monitoring in office and studio environments which often require equipment be certified. Unfortunately since almost none of the HP amp manufacturers do this, it's been an entirely frustrating exercise to find good equipment that matches the quality of what I use at home.

So this raises the questions - why no certs and should manufacturers start using them? Is there any implication for consumers?

 

[ford2]

More than likely most would fail.Singlepower is one that jumps to mind,and it was touted as the best you could buy.

 

[ford2]

Of equal concern are all the DIY amps,what would eventuate with your house insurance if one of them caused a fire.
The only time mine are switched on is when I am there,better safe than sorry.

 

[eddiewalker]

This question arose in the Compass thread when someone's amp was stopped at customs because the EU required a "CE" marking. Kingwa, the builder estimated that having his product tested and certified would cost upwards of $10,000 and on a small-volume, limited-appeal product, there would be no way for him to recoup the expense.

 

[deltaydeltax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddiewalker /img/forum/go_quote.gif This question arose in the Compass thread when someone's amp was stopped at customs because the EU required a "CE" marking. Kingwa, the builder estimated that having his product tested and certified would cost upwards of $10,000 and on a small-volume, limited-appeal product, there would be no way for him to recoup the expense.

I've been witness to the ~$10k cost of safety testing.

There are also were some rules where you didn't need safety testing on circuits below a certain voltage, provided they're run off of a low level DC supply which is recognized by a governing body. This was as of five years ago though, and rules may have changed. Destructive testing is not cheap.

 

[wuwhere]

Good question. No UL nor FCC certification in the USA. The certification cost, if passed on to the consumers, would put these entrepreneurs out of business.

 

[Happy Camper]

I know your not saying that it's ok to live with safety hazards to help a hobbyist make a profit but it kind of reads that way.

That certification is the cost of doing business and no one is pushing it in pursuit of sonic purity. As someone who makes a living in compliance verifications, I find it dangerous and irresponsible to support a cottage industry this way. Unfortunately, internet commerce has no assurances, buyer beware.

Perhaps we should petition the membership to see what gear has certifications. I am guessing we won't see much.

Should the required certifications for product marketed and sold through this site be part of the qualification for each product? If so, there would be little for us crazed hobbyists to buy.

 

[Currawong]

It'd double the cost of gear I'll bet too. I'm sure people would prefer cheap over certified.

 

[Punnisher]

You may try using a UL listed external power supply with a headphone amp. That way at least part of it (probably the most important part) will be OK to use in an office.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Keep in mind that even certified equipment is dangerous if operated incorrectly.

As for hobbyist gear... testing and certification can cost a lot of money, require several reams of paper and take a long time. There is a rather short product cycle in hi-fi, as well. I've only been here about 3.5 years and what was popular when I started is often considered "old" today. So in addition to the money, paperwork and time, whatever you certify probably won't have a market lifespan more than a couple of years afterwards. Considering the small volume of sales and intense price pressure, it doesn't make economic sense.

DIY can be the safest option of all, provided it's done correctly. Keep in mind that the projects are vetted by electrical engineers mucking around in their spare time and other experienced geeks. I've been picking at old tube radios since around '98 and have had more than a few start smoking on the bench. You quickly learn what causes that and are careful not to repeat your mistakes.

Another benefit is that you're free to overspec your components. While some manufacturers cut corners to save a few dollars per unit (which really adds up if you're making many units), spending an extra $10 or $20 on a build is not a big deal. For instance, I've scoured a local electronics place for kickass wirewound resistors for some upcoming builds. Instead of 2W or 5W resistors in the power supply, I'll use 10W-25W monsters. That's a nice margin of error you won't get in a commercial amp. I use caps in excess of what's called for and heavy duty wire, as well. Build it clean and you've got a safety margin ahead of anything commercial.

I don't run amps for more than a few hours at a time, either. So while you can never completely eliminate risk, it is possible to seriously minimize it.

 

[Born2bwire]

In addition to the astronomical costs of certification, it seems that certification can also carry over from the individual parts used. Tyll mentioned this in a thread asking why the power button for the DPS was in the rear and not conveniently in the front. Apparently, since the power module was already UL certified, it carried on with the DPS. However, routing the line power to the PCB and to a switch in the front would require re-certification.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f77/dp...7/#post6103434

Perhaps a direct query to some of the manufacturers would help clear up the role of certifications in their products.

 

[ert]

Some very interesting comments in here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif More than likely most would fail.

I suspect this may be true. I also wonder if the lack of incentives for the bigger players factors in. One could assume the smaller guys dont do it because they can't afford to, and the larger companies won't because they would be at a financial disadvantage, and customers don't appear to be demanding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddiewalker /img/forum/go_quote.gif product tested and certified would cost upwards of $10,000 and on a small-volume, limited-appeal product, there would be no way for him to recoup the expense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuwhere /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good question. No UL nor FCC certification in the USA. The certification cost, if passed on to the consumers, would put these entrepreneurs out of business.

These points definitely make sense, however I strongly agree with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif That certification is the cost of doing business and no one is pushing it in pursuit of sonic purity. As someone who makes a living in compliance verifications, I find it dangerous and irresponsible to support a cottage industry this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps we should petition the membership to see what gear has certifications. I am guessing we won't see much.

Spot on. I've spend a decent amount of time researching this. Most of the manufacturers I directly contacted politely replied that they do not have certs and do not plan to. Some appeared to have actually taken offense to my requests and replied in an over defensive manner. Not sure what that was about.

Although, instead of a tabled list here, I think that directly searching the certifying agencies product databases for items would be more efficient. OSHA has a list of testing labs here whose websites have publically accessible databases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punnisher /img/forum/go_quote.gif You may try using a UL listed external power supply with a headphone amp. That way at least part of it (probably the most important part) will be OK to use in an office.

That's what I'm leaning towards (in fact in may be the only option). There are a few companies that provide this option (ie Headroom) and it looks like more are starting to do this. Bryston for example has a certified PS for some of their newer preamps. It makes sense for a company to develop a single PS that needs certification, which can provide DC to their other electronics. In fact, given the upgrade craziness in audio, I'm surprise this isnt more prevelant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Keep in mind that even certified equipment is dangerous if operated incorrectly.

I agree with everything you've said. I can also say that, of the electronics I've had explode or malfunction, most were actually UL. Good design doesnt mean squat if the manufacturing quality control is poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2bwire /img/forum/go_quote.gif In addition to the astronomical costs of certification, it seems that certification can also carry over from the individual parts used. Tyll mentioned this in a thread asking why the power button for the DPS was in the rear and not conveniently in the front. Apparently, since the power module was already UL certified, it carried on with the DPS. However, routing the line power to the PCB and to a switch in the front would require re-certification.

I don't believe the DPS is UL certified, in fact I asked this directly in the HR forum and received confirmation that HR equipment is not. The difference here I believe is that between being able to legally sell equipment vs providing optional certification. Using a UL switch will provide the former, but does not the latter.

 

[FallenAngel]

Threads like this, while interesting conversation points, make me want to never build anything for anybody.

Actually a person at my work (as I have a DIY setup at the office) had given me a 2 part answer for this.
1) A lot of equipment uses UL certified power wall warts (external wall plug-in transformers) so that they don't have to get certified.
2) I should incorporate as LLC because people are sue-happy in this country and I should hope that nothing with a transformer inside it fails, even when somebody spills a glass of water on it. Creative people can try to sue for that too.

 

[markmaxx]

I know things like this happen all the time, for instance we have horses and many of the fly sprays are labeled as coat conditioner's, that way the smaller boutique suppliers can bypass a lot of legal steps. It.s all about money and accountability or should I say lack of?

 

[Happy Camper]

The mess we have with SP amps is a good example of the need.