Why does everyone like Grados?
May 14, 2010 at 9:24 AM Post #166 of 203

 
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I've tried my Grados with classical and it's safe to say there's no synergy there. Ergo, if you listen to a lot of rock and guitar based music, you'll love Grados.


No, it's not "safe to say there's no synergy..." Too many absolutes. And, in this context, synergy is a subjective term, which means each individual will have their own assessment, based on their own tastes and preferences. Statements like this are, obviously, more appropriately couched as opinion rather than fact. 
 
May 14, 2010 at 11:11 AM Post #167 of 203
My RS-1s are amazing with chamber music, though they're admittedly not my first choice for symphonic music.
 
May 14, 2010 at 11:33 AM Post #169 of 203
Agreed, quartets and smaller sets are good on the HF-2s, but once you have a fairly large orchestra going, the compressed soundstage does put it at a disadvantage.
 
Quote:
My RS-1s are amazing with chamber music, though they're admittedly not my first choice for symphonic music.


 
 
May 14, 2010 at 11:57 AM Post #170 of 203
Things like the SA5k and the ER4S don't suffer the same problem with large, complex groups that grados do. It's not JUST the soundstage that puts them at fault.
 
I'm not sure where this "grado speed" thing comes from, but in my opinion below the SR225 is a compressed mess on any recording. Guitars sound interesting, but they don't necessarily sound good. I don't have the same problem with the RS1, but I still think it performs bad for the money
 
May 14, 2010 at 12:10 PM Post #171 of 203
 
Quote:
I'm not sure where this "grado speed" thing comes from, but in my opinion below the SR225 is a compressed mess on any recording.

I just sold a DT990 because I preferred my SR80- and I listen to a lot of large-scale orchestral music, as well as opera. That should tell you not everybody's ears work the same way. (And mine are attached to a very busy amateur classical musician. They work fine.)
 
I will sooner or later get another can with a big soundstage, probably a K701/2, because I like the idea of having a choice of very different perspectives on the music. But I will also want the Grado sound in my rotation. Is it for everybody? Certainly not. But trying to tell people they don't really like what they like is pretty silly. Classically-oriented audiophiles who love Grados are not exactly rare, though you'd never know that from the Headfi groupthink on the subject.
 
 
May 14, 2010 at 12:23 PM Post #172 of 203


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Originally Posted by supersleuth /img/forum/go_quote.gif

And mine are attached to a very busy amateur classical musician. They work fine


I'm a professional jazz musician. Your point? I've heard many "deaf" musicians, as well as musicians that are actually deaf.
 
I appreciate the notion that people's ears are different, but things like conjestion should not be reliant on audition. I don't like the DT990 either, because of its frequency response.
 
People can like what they want, but they are often wrong. I've heard many people here sing praises for the LDMKIII and STX, saying they rival things that cost much more, when honestly they do not, even though they are solid performers.
 
But all the more power to you..
 
May 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM Post #173 of 203


Quote:
People can like what they want, but they are often wrong.


One really can't be "right" or "wrong" about a matter of taste. But whatever.
 
May 14, 2010 at 1:49 PM Post #174 of 203
 
Quote:
One really can't be "right" or "wrong" about a matter of taste. But whatever.


I am talking about conjestion, which is a relative measure, basically, which means it is not nearly as subjective as you would like us to beleive. If I was to say however, I don't like the grado colouration (which I don't) then you'd be right.
 
 
May 14, 2010 at 1:59 PM Post #175 of 203
Sorry, but "congestion" IS a purely subjective term, indeed a textbook example of such. I hear no such thing, merely a tight soundstage but with good localization.(Again, clearly not to everybody's taste nor should it be.)  If you really want to insist that there is right or wrong in such matters, then fine, I will say you're just plain wrong about "congestion " with sub-225 Grados.  Excellent live orchestral / opera recordings, say the great 1962 Knappertsbusch Bayreuth Parsifal, are remarkably satisfying on my SR80s. I found that the bigger soundstage of the DT990 contributed very little to giving any better sense of the unique acoustics of the theater at Bayreuth.
 
But there's little point in continuing the discussion.
 
May 14, 2010 at 2:21 PM Post #176 of 203


Quote:
Sorry, but "congestion" IS a purely subjective term, indeed a textbook example of such. I hear no such thing, merely a tight soundstage but with good localization.(Again, clearly not to everybody's taste nor should it be.)  If you really want to insist that there is right or wrong in such matters, then fine, I will say you're just plain wrong about "congestion " with sub-225 Grados.  Excellent live orchestral / opera recordings, say the great 1962 Knappertsbusch Bayreuth Parsifal, are remarkably satisfying on my SR80s. I found that the bigger soundstage of the DT990 contributed very little to giving any better sense of the unique acoustics of the theater at Bayreuth.
 
But there's little point in continuing the discussion.

 
 
You cant look at a traffic jam and say that is subjective conjestion. Your faux-logic is well of the mark (yes, I'm aware this will get quoted. I'm doing it on purpose).
 
Out of curiosity, have you tried stax? The only thing subjective when talking about separation is what headphones either of us have heard.
 
May 14, 2010 at 2:24 PM Post #177 of 203
You cant look at a traffic jam and say that is subjective conjestion.
 
Speaking of faux logic (or just plain confusion), there's no traffic jam inside a headphone.
 
Bye now.
 
(P.S. I did get to hear a Stax Lambda Pro once. It was wonderful, and if I had a lot of money I'd enjoy owning one.)
 
May 14, 2010 at 2:46 PM Post #179 of 203
And speaking of audiophile technobabble, one of my pet peeves is that so many people who throw graphs around don't understand that frequency response and impulse response are merely two sides of the same coin- if you know one you can calculate the other. This is a case of something that is NOT a matter of opinion but a mathematical theorem. Paging M. Fourier!
 
It's not news that Grados don't have a flat FR. How your ears and brain respond to a headphone's FR is notoriously subjective.
 
May 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM Post #180 of 203
I don't buy the "Grados are good for rock but not so for classical" dogma.  I understand the arguments proffered but I think they're bogus.  In fact, such arguments are based not on sound but on a perception linked to visuals.
 
Grados have a reputation as "intimate."  Their open-air design reduces resonance at the cost of bass slam, since there's no back to kick against.  The bass you get comes right off the driver.  Such bass is tight and controlled but not overly oppressive in the "slap 'em in the face" department.  This leaves the mids prominent, not necessarily higher than necessary - just not buried by anything.  If the mouth of the average Grado were to look more like the K701, you'd have more HF, but the tonal balance would be hollow.  Use of the comfies and bowls attenuates the HF, rolling it off into something that balances the tonality of the product.  In essence, a lessened bass and a rolled-off top-end give the mids even more prominence.
 
This brings out a lot of clarity and detail, just not a large soundstage.  If there were a visual image to match with the sound, it would be one of intimacy, because you hear the details of the instruments, themselves, not the airy space you'd associate with the concert hall, itself.  This is where Grados get their reputation as putting you "in front row."  In fact, headphones don't put you anywhere.  We're talking about the same recordings, no matter what headphones you use.  For in-studio recordings, the mic is placed right up front with the singer or instrument.  In the recording process, a totality of up-front recordings are mixed together to give the appearance of a single, live, simultaneously-performed recording.  Live-concert recordings are another story.  There, you hear the other artifacts of the concert setting - including applause, coughs, floor and wall reflections, et cetera.  Such recordings can be quite unforgiving.
 
While we readily accept the in-your-face mic'ing of rock and pop recordings, it's a harder sell to match an orchestral recording with a "narrow" soundstage.  People who go to classical concerts don't want to hear a single instrument.  They want to hear the totality.  The idea of a presentation that feels like a mic placed in first row is disturbing to more than a few.  They want to feel as if they're "up there" in nosebleed, hearing all of it served up like a dozen roses.  It doesn't occur to them that concert halls are designed to mix sound, so that the folks who sit in the very back don't get a radically different presentation from those sitting closer to the front.
 
Concert halls mix sound.
 
The long and short of it is this: Grados playing classical don't sound inferior.  The rock/classical divide is an arbitrary one.  Just to use some popular items, you could put on some John Williams (Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Jurassic Park) and never hear anything that sounds like an emphasis on certain instruments.  You still hear the totality, what people would hear anywhere in that same concert hall.  The only difference would be that the smaller cushions have a small soundstage.  You would get less of that airiness that comes from diluting the main event with reflective or additive artifacts (echoes, coughs, et cetera).  Because most of the Grado pads damp the highest of the high-end, there's a rolling off that doesn't go with feeling so far removed from the action.  With Grados, you're going to hear the center of the presentation, with more devoted to the instruments, themselves, and less devoted to distance from it.
 
For some, this ruins the ride.  They want to feel as if they're sitting on the outer fringes.  Such soundstage can be captured by using the jumbo pads.  For most Grados, however, this will leave the phones feeling hollow - because it shifts the tonal balance.  
 

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