Why do we allow manufacturers to make unsubstantiated claims?
Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 56

Michael103

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Seems quite similar to selling a placebo and claiming miraculous effects. Why haven't we made it illegal?

Edit: Especially with cables/DAC/Amp. Rejecting the null hypothesis seems quite important. Headphones are pretty easy to tell apart, and it's understandable that manufacturers can only do so much since people prefer different sounds and hifi terms are quite vague.
 
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Jun 24, 2019 at 6:30 PM Post #2 of 56
sound science too bad, should have had this in a topic thread. cheers im out
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 6:34 PM Post #3 of 56
sound science too bad, should have had this in a topic thread. cheers im out

Cable ABX is rather easy to perform, especially for a manufacturer. Is it really too much to ask them to prove that it's at least different from standard cable? If humans can't tell the difference objectively, that's important product information.
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 6:49 PM Post #4 of 56
Sound science I’m out, you want impressions then start it in a different thread. You want actual fun participation, then different thread. Sound science is a thread killer. No cables make no difference, dacs soundthe same, amps are no different. Sound science blah
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 6:56 PM Post #5 of 56
Sound science I’m out, you want impressions then start it in a different thread. You want actual fun participation, then different thread. Sound science is a thread killer. No cables make no difference, dacs soundthe same, amps are no different. Sound science blah

Isn’t this sound science forum?

Anyway, I figured maybe part of the reason FTC isn’t on to high-manufacturers is that they’ve already given up on the industry. Why outlaw cables when people enjoy buying them just for their own sake without regard to perceptible performance. Most people can’t afford $5k cables anyway so the problem may not even gain traction. It’s sad though for those who are scientifically-inclined and interested in getting reasonably good equipment (without being terribly confused first).
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 7:49 PM Post #6 of 56
The reason it isn't illegal is because it's perfectly OK to describe your product in vague, flowery terms. Every sales pitch does that. The FTC gets involved with specific claims. You'll notice whenever you see a claim of X sounding better than Z, it is almost always a testimonial. The manufacturer isn't saying that themselves. A customer is saying it. Testimonials are the bread and butter of snake oil. One person's placebo gets transmitted to the entire group. The manufacturer shrugs his shoulders and smiles and doesn't say anything.
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 7:53 PM Post #7 of 56
The reason it isn't illegal is because it's perfectly OK to describe your product in vague, flowery terms. Every sales pitch does that. The FTC gets involved with specific claims. You'll notice whenever you see a claim of X sounding better than Z, it is almost always a testimonial. The manufacturer isn't saying that themselves. A customer is saying it. Testimonials are the bread and butter of snake oil. One person's placebo gets transmitted to the entire group. The manufacturer shrugs his shoulders and smiles and doesn't say anything.

Wow that's a great analysis. Took a quick look around and it seems you're right. I guess the burden is on education then, if one thinks that there is a problem...
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 8:19 PM Post #8 of 56
Seems quite similar to selling a placebo and claiming miraculous effects. Why haven't we made it illegal?

Edit: Especially with cables/DAC/Amp. Rejecting the null hypothesis seems quite important. Headphones are pretty easy to tell apart, and it's understandable that manufacturers can only do so much since people prefer different sounds and hifi terms are quite vague.

There are a lot of reasons. One is a concept in the law at least In the U.S. called “mere puffery” which gives advertisers a lot of leeway to say exaggerated, ridiculous, or unsubstantiated things if it is not incorrectly making a false claim that their specific product is better than another specific product. This is what @bigshot is referring to.

Another reason is that audio equipment is not a food or drug or automobile or some such thing, and the claims being made by audio companies are not putting the health, safety and welfare of the public at risk, as might be the case for false claims about drugs or food or cars or nutrition supplements, so the area of claims about audio equipment is not tightly regulated.

Another reason is that prosecutors and courts and other legal institutions have only limited resources. There is a concept that the law does not deal in trivialities. We can’t clog up the courts and waste the time and resources of legal institutions on things that are below a certain level of importance.

Another reason is that there is going to be a question as to whether the claims made are falsifiable under the law. Drug companies and other similarly critical product types have to prove safety and efficacy. But with most things what will be at issue will not be whether the claim is unsubstantiated but whether it is demonstrably false or made with a reckless disregard for the truth in such a manner as to intentionally cheat people out of their money or other material goods (i.e., fraud).

Another reason is that there is not much money or glory or political benefit in taking down audio companies who make ridiculous claims. If you are going to bring a class action who is your class? Most of the “victims” don’t even know they are victims—how are you going to get a bunch of aggrieved parties to participate?

Another is the concept in the U.S. of caveat emptor—let the buyer beware—the government can’t be the truth police for every product on the market—they have to pick and choose their battles. Consumers are responsible for some level of judgment. Again the brightest lines are really fraud or where health, safety and welfare is at risk or where one company feels it has been directly financially harmed by the false claims (or theft of intellectual property, etc.) of another company.

That’s six. I think I’ll stop there. ; )

That is not to say that if a talented lawyer took on the cause he or she could not make some headway. But they almost certainly have better ways to spend their time and effort.
 
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Jun 24, 2019 at 9:26 PM Post #10 of 56
there are several circumstances as noted. but the main blur IMO is about proving subjective assertions. most marketing propaganda will push a lot of highly technical lingo and mention objective stuff that look cool, but if you pay attention, they're just fillers to give a sense of seriousness. the actual claims placing a product apart almost always end up being something entirely subjective about how it sounds or make us feel night and day better*. and they just insinuate that the cause is some special stuff they do without ever giving any form of demonstration.
the claim is about a feeling. feelings of sound improvement don't need actual sound improvement to be triggered. so proving that a guy can't hear anything(which requires a lot of time and money to test for the all industry), wouldn't even prove that the dude wasn't feeling the way he did when he made the claim. it's a very strong rhetoric, "look! some guys felt it, so you will too"**. plus it conveniently doesn't tell anything objective enough to cause accountability and fall under some law. so of course marketing is going to milk that cow forever.





*as claimed by that one guy we met in the street once.
** or not, subjectivity can be a biatch.
 
Jun 24, 2019 at 10:43 PM Post #11 of 56
there are several circumstances as noted. but the main blur IMO is about proving subjective assertions. most marketing propaganda will push a lot of highly technical lingo and mention objective stuff that look cool, but if you pay attention, they're just fillers to give a sense of seriousness. the actual claims placing a product apart almost always end up being something entirely subjective about how it sounds or make us feel night and day better*. and they just insinuate that the cause is some special stuff they do without ever giving any form of demonstration.
the claim is about a feeling. feelings of sound improvement don't need actual sound improvement to be triggered. so proving that a guy can't hear anything(which requires a lot of time and money to test for the all industry), wouldn't even prove that the dude wasn't feeling the way he did when he made the claim. it's a very strong rhetoric, "look! some guys felt it, so you will too"**. plus it conveniently doesn't tell anything objective enough to cause accountability and fall under some law. so of course marketing is going to milk that cow forever.





*as claimed by that one guy we met in the street once.
** or not, subjectivity can be a biatch.

Thanks. Imo, the problem often is that we believe our hearing reliably reveals objective differences that will persist over time and across different individuals. The content of the assertions are less interesting to me for the purpose of this thread compared to the nature of the claim itself. When people say they hear night and day difference, they often mean (or at least we tend to take them to mean) objective, measurable, and audible differences. If we can get all folks at the other forums to qualify all their claims explicitly with the cautionary note that they might very well be hallucinating the effects, that's good enough for me. Alas, people find it hard to believe for one reason or another. Manufacturers seem to be quite careful with their marketing and don't actually talk about the actual sound, only the technical bull that most of the time don't matter. But at least for me personally, I tend to infer that they believe the product sounds good.

I think bigshot and steve answered my question really well. Now if we were to follow this up with the question of what we should do about it, from my point of view I'm guessing the only way is education. Raise awareness through forums like "audioscience" (which is less interesting than one would like - it's more of an audio technician forum than inquisitive science) or general education on rationality and decision-making, which happens in universities, but other online sources help too. It's probably also useful to reveal how the industry works. Some people already dedicate time to doing this, but my opinion is that we need more to keep the industry in check. Another person might think that this is all good and consensual fun. The sharp divide and conflict of interest have been and (possibly) will always be.
 
Jun 25, 2019 at 1:26 AM Post #12 of 56
If we can get all folks at the other forums to qualify all their claims explicitly with the cautionary note that they might very well be hallucinating the effects, that's good enough for me.

Now if we were to follow this up with the question of what we should do about it, from my point of view I'm guessing the only way is education.

I have yet to find a person who insists they hear differences that is willing to add that caveat!

I also have yet to find a person who insists they hear differences who is the least bit interested in being educated!

The key concept here is deep seated bias. Snake Oil exploits that.
 
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Jun 25, 2019 at 5:10 AM Post #13 of 56
Another thing that should be noted is that Advertising Standards Law varies from Country to Country. There's no 'one size fits all' when it comes to Advertising Law. The obvious answer is to research the claims made and don't buy into 'the higher numbers is better' game they play.

That's what brought me into SS when I just couldn't buy into the 24 Bit fad (and Dual DAC's, Balanced Audio etc. since).

As Public Enemy said "Don't believe the hype".
 
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Jun 25, 2019 at 5:36 AM Post #14 of 56
. You'll notice whenever you see a claim of X sounding better than Z, it is almost always a testimonial. The manufacturer isn't saying that themselves. A customer is saying it. Testimonials are the bread and butter of snake oil. One person's placebo gets transmitted to the entire group. The manufacturer shrugs his shoulders and smiles and doesn't say anything.

Yup, I've noticed this a lot on 'Drop' amongst others.
 
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Jun 25, 2019 at 8:09 AM Post #15 of 56
Sound science I’m out, you want impressions then start it in a different thread. You want actual fun participation, then different thread. Sound science is a thread killer. No cables make no difference, dacs soundthe same, amps are no different. Sound science blah

^^Audiophile^^ defined!
 

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