Jun 29, 2010 at 2:13 AM Post #16 of 38
Skepticism is fine, but only if backed by a mind open to reasonable possibilities. Since you're in the US, I'm sure there'll be a meet near you that you can try out all kinds of gear. My personal experience indicates with your current headphones, and yes, the K240 is certainly decent, it might not be worth it to get a pricey amp. I would suggest waiting for a chance to get a good, used desktop amp on this forum's FS areas or commissioning a DIY build instead of going for a portable. A Millet hybrid, for example, is quite highly regarded but inexpensive.
 
I don't how popular these products are with studios, but I know amplifiers like the Grace M902 and SPL Phonitor are targeted towards both audiophiles and pro's, though it also has to do with their other features, especially the Phonitor's crossfeed. The Auditor, the 'audiophile' version of the Phonitor, is actually cheaper since it doesn't have the advanced crossfeed features. I have heard both; the amplifier sections sound the same to me. 
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 10:41 AM Post #17 of 38
Its not a question of pro or audiophile really.  "Pro" amps do cost an arm and a leg, the ones you don't pay big bucks for aren't Pro they are pro-sumer, think M-Audio.  Also when talking pro, we're talking recording, not listening.  Sony studios is not using a pro-sumer source or amp to listen to the mastered tracks.  They use pro gear to lay the track but not "play test" it.
 
Bang for the buck, company depending, you can get better value from audiophile gear since its bells free.  Pro audio companies also tend to use tried and true circuits, not really going too deep into dev so things like the Meier balanced ground just don't happen.
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 12:45 PM Post #18 of 38
I think difference is professionals know what they need and buy it.  "Audiophiles" just have bigger egos and believe theirs sounds better. Also professionals likely are educated enough and have better trained ears to know when there is bs, and wouldn't fall for "dev" stuff.
 
But agree with others, two different purposes.  I don't think consumer gear is about analyzing, but to make the music sound "good."  And pro gear is for professional work.  But I do not believe Pro gear is less, but just engineered more specifically for tasks that I don't need.  But more than anything, I think audiophiles are just full of themselves.
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 1:04 PM Post #19 of 38
Because most studios have a limited budget.  With most studio gear being built with that in mind. that said, I still own a Grace m902, even then Grace Designs went A bit overboard with their product. But I appreciate their attention  to quality and detail.
 -Ed
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 7:16 PM Post #22 of 38


Quote:
Because most studios have a limited budget.  With most studio gear being built with that in mind. that said, I still own a Grace m902, even then Grace Designs went A bit overboard with their product. But I appreciate their attention  to quality and detail.
 -Ed

What? I have been in studios with millions of dollars of equipment. The studio I have at home is simple and cheap, but the studios "major" record labels uses are anything but limited.
 
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 7:17 PM Post #23 of 38


Quote:
What? I have been in studios with millions of dollars of equipment. The studio I have at home is simple and cheap, but the studios "major" record labels uses are anything but limited. And compared to a lot of professional dacs out there, the grace would be considered cheap.
 



 
Jun 29, 2010 at 7:54 PM Post #24 of 38
He speaketh the truth.  Every "pro audio" guy I know who slam audiophiles buys their gear at the local guitar shop, buys triple digit gear that fills five rolls and sings the praises about how that flat lifeless sound is musical truth.  The joke is one of those guys plays the drums, quite well, and can somehow play the drums, then get up and put on some DMB and go "see just like I played".... err no.
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 8:44 PM Post #27 of 38


Quote:
He speaketh the truth.  Every "pro audio" guy I know who slam audiophiles buys their gear at the local guitar shop, buys triple digit gear that fills five rolls and sings the praises about how that flat lifeless sound is musical truth.  The joke is one of those guys plays the drums, quite well, and can somehow play the drums, then get up and put on some DMB and go "see just like I played".... err no.


My god ain't this the truth
L3000.gif

 
Peete.
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 11:16 PM Post #28 of 38
Everyone doing contemporary electroacoustic composition I know uses Genelec speakers. 
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/1038B/
 
A pair of these is more than $17,500 with tax.  They don't usually use these big ones, but even the tiny ones are a few thousand a piece.  
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 11:35 PM Post #29 of 38
I concur with the observation that professionals use headphones mostly as secondary tools. Their primary sound reproduction tools are studio monitors, which are being discussed and compared a lot more on pro-audio forums.
 
I also agree with the notion that a significant part of the money paid for the audiophile equipment goes to exterior fit and finish, marketing, and sales. Pro-audio design tends to be functional yet not flashy, marketing is more informational than emotional, and sales channels are more efficient.
 
I'd like to contribute yet another observation. The pro-audio headphone amplifiers are so relatively cheap and simple compared to the rest of pro-audio gear that they are often included as part of a more sophisticated piece of equipment, and because of that they may go unnoticed.
 
Distribution headphone amplifiers that you mentioned is one example. They are meant to deliver one stereo mix through multiple (usually 4-8) individually adjustable headphone channels, presumably to members of a band monitoring their live mix. In my experience, they don't sound all that good, as they are optimized for small space per channel rather than for low distortion.
 
Noticeably higher quality headphone amps are included in decent analog studio mixers (don't have experience with high-end digital ones but I presume they are good too). Good mixers are indeed already optimized to be a platform for a ridiculously low-distortion and low-noise audio amplification, employing fully differential circuitry, records-setting op-amps, rigid full metal enclosure, beefy and sophisticated power supplies etc.
 
Because of the mixer's platform general suitability for lower-power audio amplification, adding a quality headphone amp doesn't result in a big incremental cost. Besides, listening to and adjusting live mix is a critical highly focused real time activity, which often needs to be conducted in the presence of loud external sounds, and because of that it can only be done with high-quality headphones.
 
Thus higher-end mixers both can and must have a high-quality headphone output. "Higher-end" doesn't necessarily mean "huge and expensive" as mixers of a given family typically come in several variants mostly differing by the number of inputs they support. As far as I can tell, their headphone sections tend to be identical. So the smallest mixer of the most advanced family designed by a reputable vendor could be your best bang for the buck.
 
An additional advantage is that mixer also includes equalizer, which can be used to adjust the frequency response curve to your liking. And yet another advantage is that it usually has a sound level meter, complete with red clipping lights, so you can detect the recordings fallen to the "loudness wars" right away.
 
And I haven't even started talking about mixers with embedded USB and/or Firewire I/O. I believe those are the ultimate pro-audio values in the context of head-fi . There may exist audiophile systems with sound quality that I'd like more than that of my current Mackie Onyx 820i (http://www.mackie.com/products/onyx820i/index.html), yet I highly doubt such a system can be had for less than $3000, while the Onyx is just $500.
 
 
Quote:
Hey everyone, just looking to the veterans to clear up some confusion.  I feel like I've searched a bit and understand the basics, but I have a few questions.
 
Cliff's notes:
1) Why are hi-fi amps reviewed, talked about, and traded more than studio headphone amps here?
2) Why are hi-fi amps more expensive than studio amps?
 
I have been researching headphone amps recently, and recently got a used Fostex PH-50 5-channel distribution amp off of eBay from a guitar shop.  If we are using studio/monitoring headphones for hi-fi, then what is wrong with studio amps as well?  Why are we getting 300 and 600 Ohm headphones that the professionals use for making music and then not trusting their amps to drive the phones, instead getting amps like the ones at Moon Audio or TTVJ?  If these hi-fi amps are superior, then in studios, why are rack-mount distribution amps good enough for the professionals, the ones that are actually mixing the music that we're listening to?  I'm just confused as to what some of these $2,500+ amps provide that the headphone companies don't.  Beyerdynamic, Grado, and AKG, for example, all have $600-$900 amps to be used with the headphones to be used at home.



 
Jun 30, 2010 at 1:24 AM Post #30 of 38
Again everyone, thank you so much for your input.  A lot of these posts have really helped.  The Grace and SPL amps, $1,000+, are out of the question for me.  There is no way that I am willing to go that high on the diminishing-returns scale.  At that price, I'd rather just get myself a pair of 32 Ohm high-ends, such as Beyer 880, Edition 9, etc.
 
The Schiit Asgard looks solid, I am wondering if that is what I will have to raise my price to, or if some of the $150-$250 used amps in the for sale forum beat this amp.  Overall, it seems to be my kind of product from my kind of company, I just wish that it was $50 less.
 
You have to be careful about slamming professionals for using better gear.  I used to be a professional photographer, and if it's your livelihood, then diminishing returns are acceptable.  It is correct that the gear is expensive, but there is a level of quality you expect.  And sure, a $5,000 lens doesn't perform 30 times better than a $150 lens, but as a professional, even that sliver of a chance that a piece of equipment would break down isn't worth it, if you're doing work.  Plus, if it performs even just a little better, it can be the difference between getting the shot and getting a blurry viewfinder.  So, if it puts food on your plate, you pony up.
 
Krav, I seem to agree with you and Uncle Erik the most.  Recommendations like Mackie are things that I like to see.  And that's for a full mixer.  So, I'm expecting dedicated headphone amps, like we're talking about here, to cost much less (or at least cost much less to make).  Then again, as you said, bigger companies get to spread the design cost over many models.  Still, the markup of an amplifier like the SPL or Grace has to be through the roof.
 

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