Who has an end game setup?

[Takeanidea]

Yup, forget them then. For 3 grand might as well buy Stax. 


You know I think I'm gonna sell my amp and headphones that are in my sig.

!This thread is backfiring! From HE-1000's to Stax it just shows that there is always a more expensive endgame out there.....

 

[Dobrescu George]

!This thread is backfiring! From HE-1000's to Stax it just shows that there is always a more expensive endgame out there.....

i think that it all stops at stax or abyss. one of them is the most expensive, if one does not consider rare headphones, like sennheiser orpheus..

 

[Earspeakers]

 
On the contrary, I reckon planers are going to overtake 'stats essentially.

 
Then why hasn't Magenpan destroyed MartinLogan and the other 'stat manufacturers? 
 

  I sold off all my Stax gear because I couldn't see myself with a $5k amp that I could only use with one pair of headphones and a $4k pair of headphones I could only use with one amp. 

 
That's cool they don't work for you but false reasoning, You have plenty of 'stat amps to choose from, from commercial to DIY. And a large variety of headphones to choose from. I have some 12 or 15 Stax headphones and by the end of the year will have the KGST, KGSSHV, BHSE and T2. Plenty of variety there. 
 
The argument against Stax being that it takes a special amplifier is a false one. All headphones take a special amplifier. The correct statement is that Stax is different from the majority of headphones. Which is absolutely true. 

 

[astrostar59]

  I own a full size maxed out KGSSHV and only heard the BHSE in meet conditions, but with the SR-009 I actually prefer the KGSSHV.  The touch of warm of the KGSSHV is good for the pairing.  I didn't know what tubes were in the BHSE.  The SR-007 is no doubt better from the BHSE.

Hope I can shed some light. I spent some time at David's listening to his K-01 feeding my KGSShv and his BHSE with both my previous 007s and my current 009s.
 
I have to say I much preferred the 009s with the BHSE. It has more of everything, less smear and more more transparent with the sound IMO. Yes the 009s are brighter, but that is only part of the story. IMO the 007s (MK2s) cover up some detail and slow things down. In some systems with brighter sounding DACs this may be preferred. If the source is really really smooth, detailed but smooth, no edge or digital fatigue, then the 009 nails it to me.
 
On the KGSShv, I have said here before, but I thought my KGSShv (off-board full size) was as good as the BHSE. It had a different signature, and had strengths in the areas I like. I could live with either very happily, and would not say I preferred one over the other. Oddly the KGSShv does have a warm slant, almost tube sounding but a vice like grip on the bass and dynamics. The BHSE is slightly brighter and more air around vocals and instruments, and possibly the reason it needs tube matching with the 009s. If it works out of the box with the 007s, to me it is because those phones are hiding things, not because they are better. But get the BHSE and 009s right, and it is probably the best sound you are ever going to hear IMO.
 
The PS-Vanes in David's BHSE were very nice. I expect anyone who wants to fine tune the sound of their BHSE with their source will try different tubes. I have done that in my DAC. It does allow a bit of tuning to balance the signature of the final sound you will get. When you get to this level it is all about system synergy IMO.
Otherwise, you end up buying and selling forever. Anyway, that is my view, no doubt others won't agree. I think how much money I have spent to get this far, it has to be a logical path. IMO there is no perfect component to just do it right, it is about the sum of those separate components that work together, and also why this hobby is so good, so many variables, or maybe why it is a nightmare? I hope not.

 

[Pirakaphile]

I would consider my measly Schiit Magni/Modi and HiFiMan HE-500 to be end-game at their price point, but I've got the Bifrost and Lyr2 (both not really end-game but who gives a damn?) on my calendar. I'm hoping to have either the HE-1000 or another end-game can after I get the Magnepan 3.7i, which will probably be in more than a decade, since I have a $500 a year limit as of now, which will increase to $1k after I'm done with school and have a higher paying job. 
Or if I win the lottery, win some spontaneous high end giveaway, am put in a head-fiers will, or invent the most comfortable pillow in the world and market it to millionares and billionares.

 

[Currawong]

 

 
On the contrary, I reckon planers are going to overtake 'stats essentially.

 
Then why hasn't Magenpan destroyed MartinLogan and the other 'stat manufacturers? 
 

  I sold off all my Stax gear because I couldn't see myself with a $5k amp that I could only use with one pair of headphones and a $4k pair of headphones I could only use with one amp. 

 
That's cool they don't work for you but false reasoning, You have plenty of 'stat amps to choose from, from commercial to DIY. And a large variety of headphones to choose from. I have some 12 or 15 Stax headphones and by the end of the year will have the KGST, KGSSHV, BHSE and T2. Plenty of variety there. 
 
The argument against Stax being that it takes a special amplifier is a false one. All headphones take a special amplifier. The correct statement is that Stax is different from the majority of headphones. Which is absolutely true. 

 
1. Martin Logan and other electrostatic speakers plug in like regular speakers as they have the required amplification built-in. 
 
2. Not false logic at all. You can plug planars into even a phone nowadays. You can't do that with an electrostatic headphone, but you NEED an electrostat amp. There are only 7 or companies making amps, with mostly only making one model. There are only 2 companies making the headphones!
 
The whole point of owning a pair of 'stats is to get a degree of resolution not available from regular dynamic headphones. I believe that planars will eventually make that unnecessary, if they haven't already, with a far less expensive investment if top-of-the-line performance is desired. Electrostats have their high voltage working against them for enough reasons (unavailable high-voltage parts, liability, community politics) that companies have been rejecting the idea of making amps for them. They will remain a niche. 
 
Don't get me, wrong -- I'd love a T2/009 rig and I'm a bit envious of Jude's 'stat rig, but given all the hassle and cost of getting either, by the time I sorted it out, I reckon I'll be able to get as good performance, or close to it from a planar rig, so I abandoned that path.
 
Edit: See Iron_dreamer's comparison of the 009s with the HE-1000s here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/748334/hifiman-he1000-planar-dynamic-flagship/2835#post_11469521

 

[Earspeakers]

1. Martin Logan and other electrostatic speakers plug in like regular speakers as they have the required amplification built-in. 

 
 
Somehow that means that they don't have a specialized amplifier? Just because you can't see it? 
 

 You can't do that with an electrostatic headphone, but you NEED an electrostat amp.

 
If the power cord bothers you then get a transformer like the WooWee and consider it part of the driver. 
 

 There are only 7 or companies making amps, with mostly only making one model. There are only 2 companies making the headphones!

 
Now we agree. The only real distinction (other than the technical details of how sound is produced) is that there are fewer choices with 'stats. 
 

The whole point of owning a pair of 'stats is to get a degree of resolution not available from regular dynamic headphones. I believe that planars will eventually make that unnecessary

 
I doubt it, they'll always be fighting the physics. I agree they'll probably become good enough for most folks, but Maggies have been at it for some 30 years or whatever, and while they're lovely (I had 3.6's) they don't match the resolution of 'stats. An AC current in a magnetic field can't match a pure electric field.
 
We're really in violent agreement here. 

 

[n3rdling]

There are two other reasons I don't think planars will ever quite reach stats for resolution:
1. Diaphragm mass.  Planars can use the same materials for the diaphragm but require traces to be put on the diaphragm as well which will significantly increase the mass.  They need to be able to withstand a certain amount of current, so the traces can only get so small without being destroyed.  Electrostatic diaphragms are basically currentless and only require a very thin coating to hold charge.
2.  Acoustic transparency of the motor and housing.  Planars use an array of block magnets as a motor, which means there's lots of blockage and reflections.  This can be mitigated some with much smaller magnets, but assembling that would be too time consuming and finicky.  Stats essentially use a mesh/perforated plate which is much more acoustically transparent.  Single ended planars catch up a bit in this area since they have no reflections on one side, but the other side will always suffer.
 
So far, I think the Abyss is the only planar that I haven't immediately noticed a veil to.  The rest are either too thick/muffled sounding (usually Audeze) or simply don't dig up all the information (usually Hifiman and T50rp variants). 
 
I was hoping the HE1000 would be good enough to buy and use regularly, but the sample I heard at CanJam was pretty bad for the price.  I'll have to audition it again sometime, because what I heard doesn't compare to the Koss ESP950 even from its' stock amp, let alone the SR-009.

 

[purk]

   
2. Not false logic at all. You can plug planars into even a phone nowadays. You can't do that with an electrostatic headphone, but you NEED an electrostat amp. There are only 7 or companies making amps, with mostly only making one model. There are only 2 companies making the headphones!
 
The whole point of owning a pair of 'stats is to get a degree of resolution not available from regular dynamic headphones. I believe that planars will eventually make that unnecessary, if they haven't already, with a far less expensive investment if top-of-the-line performance is desired. Electrostats have their high voltage working against them for enough reasons (unavailable high-voltage parts, liability, community politics) that companies have been rejecting the idea of making amps for them. They will remain a niche. 
 
Don't get me, wrong -- I'd love a T2/009 rig and I'm a bit envious of Jude's 'stat rig, but given all the hassle and cost of getting either, by the time I sorted it out, I reckon I'll be able to get as good performance, or close to it from a planar rig, so I abandoned that path.
 
Edit: See Iron_dreamer's comparison of the 009s with the HE-1000s here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/748334/hifiman-he1000-planar-dynamic-flagship/2835#post_11469521

 
I don't think the whole reliability issue should be in question here.  Most of the Stax amps have proven to be very reliable after many years in operation.  KG, Spritzer, and Stax enthusiasts are still at the forefront of getting the best sound out of their amplifiers/headphones. They are also utilizing a newly available high voltage parts as a replacement to the obsolete ones .  The KGSTs & KGSSHVs are available for less than 3k and they work great with both the SR009, SR007 MKI or MKII.  
 
The BHSE in that impression only used a new issued Mullard EL34s which are not an optimum match to the SR009.  A simple tube upgrades to BHSE amplifier can easily yield another 10-15% of improvement alone.

 

[Takeanidea]

Planar phones do have a different presentation from other headphones and I've enjoyed the sound of both. I think I'm not alone though in realising that the electrostat might not be for me. I have been through 3 Stax earspeakers including the Sigma Pro's, I preferred the sound of my HD800s to all of them by a long shot. None of them were as enjoyable to listen to music with; even allowing for the quirkiness of the Sigma box enclosures.
I have yet to listen to the SR009s and have only briefly listened to the SR007s and would encourage anyone to try an Electrostat if they got the chance because they are quite a different approach compared to a Planar, but the BHSE and T2 end of the market are something to aspire to nearer retirement when mains electric is a bigger part of my lifestyle.
If many prefer the sound signature of the HE1000s over the SR009 or Abyss it will mean potentially a huge saving over a BHSE/SR009 combo that's for sure.
True appreciation of a phone's qualities only come after listening for 100s of hours, but it'll be nice to have a listen finally to the SR009s later on this month

 

[wink]

Wait until the hype dies down and some sanity is restored before making any decision.
 
The above does not apply to those of us are collectors or have been around the traps for too long, or have conquered our wallets.

 

[Earspeakers]

The BHSE in that impression only used a new issued Mullard EL34s which are not an optimum match to the SR009.  A simple tube upgrades to BHSE amplifier can easily yield another 10-15% of improvement alone.

 
Which tubes are that? I've seen the tube rolling posts but didn't pick up that tidbit (maybe I'm blind). 
 
Hopefully they're new production ...

 

[SleathX1]

Not me.

 

[purk]

Which tubes are that? I've seen the tube rolling posts but didn't pick up that tidbit (maybe I'm blind). 

Hopefully they're new production ...

Peter indicated that the tubes are new production Mullard at the other site.

 

[Earspeakers]

Peter indicated that the tubes are new production Mullard at the other site.

Thanks, appreciate it.