[hwc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikon I'm particularly disgusted by the HD595. The build quality is just cheap, cheap, cheap -> 100% plastic.

What do you think the HD600s and HD650s are made of? Plastic, plastic, plastic. The only pieces of metal are the metal cosmetic grilles (which the HD595s also have) and the metal headband, which is functionally not as good as the plastic headband based on complaints of excessive clamping pressure.

In many ways, the "build quality" of the HD595 is higher than the 600/650 series. For example, the cable attachment point to the driver is a miniature circuit board instead of somewhat unreliable springs. (I actually think this improvement was probably the result of automation in the Ireland factory).

Instead of a simple piece of cheap foam, the inner lining of the 595 is a nicely tooled little part with stretched acousic fabric. That simple little part would be hideously expensive to manufacture in Europe due to labor costs.

Plastic is plastic. There just happens to be an infrastructure of goods plastic molding factories in Southeast Asia, producing molded parts for everything under the sun -- from computers to TVs to iPods to headphones.

 

[hwc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikon Be honest - what association does a "Made In China" sticker bring up in your mind?

To me it means, "Oh goodie, I can buy the same quality product for half the price."

If you ever get a chance, you should go visit some of these Southeast Asian or Chinese factories. They are pretty amazing.

My only complaint is that that some of the savings comes at a cost to the environment. The cost of pollution controls in Japan, America, and Western Europe is a big part of the increased costs of a higher standard of living. That will evenutally change in China, too. As their standard of living increases, they will no longer accept the pollution levels.

 

[Ikon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc What do you think the HD600s and HD650s are made of? Plastic, plastic, plastic. The only pieces of metal are the metal cosmetic grilles (which the HD595s also have) and the metal headband, which is functionally not as good as the plastic headband based on complaints of excessive clamping pressure.

Ever had a HD600 or HD650 in your hands? They aren't made of plastic at all, it's some pretty indestructable carbon-whatever-compound.
And try dropping a HD580 and a HD595 on the floor. Any bets on what will break more likely?

Btw., the high clamping pressure has nothing to do with the material, it's purely a design choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc In many ways, the "build quality" of the HD595 is higher than the 600/650 series. For example, the cable attachment point to the driver is a miniature circuit board instead of somewhat unreliable springs. (I actually think this improvement was probably the result of automation in the Ireland factory). Instead of a simple piece of cheap foam, the inner lining of the 595 is a nicely tooled little part with stretched acousic fabric. That simple little part would be hideously expensive to manufacture in Europe due to labor costs.

Explain "in many ways". You have mentioned two rather small improvements vs. the great disadvantage of low sturdiness of the frame. And the cable is not replaceable, too.

In other words: who cares if you have to treat the headphone like raw eggs because it is so flimsy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc Plastic is plastic. There just happens to be an infrastructure of goods plastic molding factories in Southeast Asia, producing molded parts for everything under the sun -- from computers to TVs to iPods to headphones.

For 100+ bucks, I simply don't want plastic, I expect better.

 

[hardstyler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikon Not because the Chinese are unable to produce high quality products, naturally. But western companies produce in China pretty much only because of monetary reasons. Be honest - what association does a "Made In China" sticker bring up in your mind? [ ] cheap, probably not very sturdy or [ ] finest build quality

Well I don't look at it that way. If for example the HD595 made in Germany are built from carbon-fibre (probably a bad choice but you get the point) and the ones in China only have plastic than yeah I can understand your point. But beacuse they're not this is a non issue really.

If Sennheiser would start to make HD595 in Germany it would be exactly the same in quality and materials as the ones from China only twice as expensive

 

[hardstyler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikon For 100+ bucks, I simply don't want plastic, I expect better.

Thats why I bought A900. You get some nice blue aluminium and they're not made in China if thats important to you

 

[F107plus5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardstyler Thats why I bought A900. You get some nice blue aluminium and they're not made in China if thats important to you

My MS2i have a nice more or less natural aluminum finish. And it is important to me!

.....I feel that it's important that my fellow countrymen are employed.

 

[Ikon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardstyler Well I don't look at it that way. If for example the HD595 made in Germany are built from carbon-fibre (probably a bad choice but you get the point) and the ones in China only have plastic than yeah I can understand your point. But beacuse they're not this is a non issue really. If Sennheiser would start to make HD595 in Germany it would be exactly the same in quality and materials as the ones from China only twice as expensive

Agreed, but is the HD600 twice as expensive as the HD595? Nope.
Was the much sturdier HD580 twice as expensive? Nope, even cheaper in the US.
Now back to the HD595, why should people pay the same money for an obviously much cheaper product?

I don't cry that Senn produces the HD595 in China, but I feel that it's way overpriced on the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc If you ever get a chance, you should go visit some of these Southeast Asian or Chinese factories. They are pretty amazing. My only complaint is that that some of the savings comes at a cost to the environment. The cost of pollution controls in Japan, America, and Western Europe is a big part of the increased costs of a higher standard of living. That will evenutally change in China, too. As their standard of living increases, they will no longer accept the pollution levels.

To me, there's nothing amazing or about western companies building shiny high-tech manufacturing lines in a low-income country just to exploit the people AND the environment

 

[F107plus5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikon To me, there's nothing amazing or about western companies building shiny high-tech manufacturing lines in a low-income country just to exploit the people AND the environment

Then to add to the fun; these poor quality products are sold through Wal-Mart in the US to the up and coming poverty class who can buy them cheaply today only to have to buy them again in a couple months when they fail prematurely.

.....Ok, I'm exagerating, but I'm still not excited with what I'm seeing happening with the "New World Economy."

 

[hwc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikon Ever had a HD600 or HD650 in your hands? They aren't made of plastic at all, it's some pretty indestructable carbon-whatever-compound.

Not "whatever-compound". Plastic. Injection molded plastic. I've been involved in tooling plastic parts in both Japan and China. The costs are a fraction of the tooling costs in the US. You can hang whatever "marketing lingo" buzzword on the plastic that you want. I can guarantee you that Sennheiser won't be tooling up major plastic parts for production in Europe again anytime soon. The tooling design of the 580/600/650 series is ancient -- more than 12 years old. When you do your plastic tooling in Germany or the US, there are limitations inherent in the lack of a large consumer tooling/injection industry. One of the reasons that Asian manufacture is so effective is that you have enclaves of related industries. Right next door to the VCR plant is a huge plastics molding plant with sufficient volume to have very sophisticated capabilities -- capabilities beyond the mom & pop tooling/injection houses typically used in the West. The entire manufacturing economy is based around high-value consumer products.

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And try dropping a HD580 and a HD595 on the floor. Any bets on what will break more likely?

Actually, I think the HD580 would break more easily. The small plastic "eyelet/lugs" holding the driver baffle to the earcup appear to be likely fracture points. The HD595 uses metal screws to attach the driver baffle. Having said that, I haven't seen any reports of anyone breaking their 580s or 595s here.

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Btw., the high clamping pressure has nothing to do with the material, it's purely a design choice.

Actually, it has everything to do with materials choice. The selection of the material determines the clamping pressure. The country of origin has nothing to do with the choice of metal or plastic headbands. I'm sure that the Sennheisser Chinese factory is more than capable of supplying a metal headband. Heck, they are probably shipping the HD650 headbands to Ireland!

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Explain "in many ways". You have mentioned two rather small improvements vs. the great disadvantage of low sturdiness of the frame. And the cable is not replaceable, too.

The cable on the HD595 is replaceable. It attaches with a plug inside the headphone. Just pop the earpads off and slip out the acoustic fabric liner. The plug is accessible in the left earcup. BTW, the cable is the thicker upgraded style cable rather than the thin Sennheiser cable used on the 580s. (Save money on assembly in China, spend more on a better cable).

Quote:

In other words: who cares if you have to treat the headphone like raw eggs because it is so flimsy?

If I'm not mistaken, the 595's are actually a tad heavier than the 580s.

 

[hwc]

Not to get too deep into manufacturing costs, but the tooling expense for injection molded parts is far more than the actual piece price of the parts. Until the tooling cost is amortized, you have to add dollars to unit cost to account for that expenditure.

The 580/600/650 line is ancient. The tooling costs were amortized as much as a decade ago.

Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Sennheiser molds the plastic parts for those models in China now. It would be unusual if they didn't. High volume US and British speaker manufacturers source most of their plastic tooled parts (grill frames, tweeter housings, port tubes, etc) from Asia. There just isn't much of an industry for it here.

 

[Daroid]

As to when Sennheiser headphones moved to Ireland: 1997 mostly. You will see that used HD25-1 from pre-1997 says "Made in Germany" on the headband while they now say "Made in Ireland". At the same time, manufacture of all cheaper headphones moved to China.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc To me it means, "Oh goodie, I can buy the same quality product for half the price." If you ever get a chance, you should go visit some of these Southeast Asian or Chinese factories. They are pretty amazing. My only complaint is that that some of the savings comes at a cost to the environment. The cost of pollution controls in Japan, America, and Western Europe is a big part of the increased costs of a higher standard of living. That will evenutally change in China, too. As their standard of living increases, they will no longer accept the pollution levels.

Before, to me it meant decent quality goods - could be worse, could get better. There are exceptions, showing some excellent examples of how good it gets. But today i'm hearing more and more about counterfeits and hoaxes, doesn't sound too original - but it's not China in particular.
Also more cheap CRAP is produced that doesn't last long because the big corporations want you to buy new goods from them a few years after. That's why Asia is pinpointed for bad mass-produced products, but they can do better if the corporations weren't so greedy.

Molded unknown plastic from the Eastern countries reminds me of phthalates, and other materials that are just unhealthy, and is just added because it was possible and the cheapest, or just didn't know jack about good plastics (not molding in particular).

At the time they have a decent living over there will be after US and China has extracted all oil from earth.

 

[Ikon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc Not "whatever-compound". Plastic. Injection molded plastic. I've been involved in tooling plastic parts in both Japan and China. The costs are a fraction of the tooling costs in the US. You can hang whatever "marketing lingo" buzzword on the plastic that you want. I can guarantee you that Sennheiser won't be tooling up major plastic parts for production in Europe again anytime soon. The tooling design of the 580/600/650 series is ancient -- more than 12 years old. When you do your plastic tooling in Germany or the US, there are limitations inherent in the lack of a large consumer tooling/injection industry. One of the reasons that Asian manufacture is so effective is that you have enclaves of related industries. Right next door to the VCR plant is a huge plastics molding plant with sufficient volume to have very sophisticated capabilities -- capabilities beyond the mom & pop tooling/injection houses typically used in the West. The entire manufacturing economy is based around high-value consumer products.

I salute to you for knowing so much about plastic molding in Asia, but it's mostly beside the point here. No Offense, honestly.

The material used for the HD600/650 series is marketed as "carbon fibre", which may well mean "carbon fibre reinforced plastic". But if you ever had them in your hands, you would know they are built like a tank - comparing that material to the cheap kind of plastic which the HD595 is composed of is unfair. These phones aren't even in the same price range. The HD600/650 are built to last for a very long time, while I wouldn't give the HD595 a mean life of more 2-4 years. It's a typical throw-away-and-get-a-new-one-product

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc Actually, I think the HD580 would break more easily. The small plastic "eyelet/lugs" holding the driver baffle to the earcup appear to be likely fracture points. The HD595 uses metal screws to attach the driver baffle. Having said that, I haven't seen any reports of anyone breaking their 580s or 595s here.

The "eyelet/lugs" are certainly the weakest part of the HD580, still they are very though to break. The metal screws on the HD595 have the problem of beeing attached to a really cheap plastic superstructure, that needs a good deal of luck to survive a fall itself. I guess we'll have to perform the fall test ourselves

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc Actually, it has everything to do with materials choice. The selection of the material determines the clamping pressure. The country of origin has nothing to do with the choice of metal or plastic headbands. I'm sure that the Sennheisser Chinese factory is more than capable of supplying a metal headband.

Nope, it's just a matter of how the material is formed. The HD595's designer obviously decided to leave more distance between the ear cups, which translates into less clamping force.
As you said, the choice to use plastic for the headband instead of metal has nothing to do with the place of production, it's just another way of cutting down the costs since the plastic has no other advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwc If I'm not mistaken, the 595's are actually a tad heavier than the 580s.

Yep, about 10g heavier (the cable is not included in this number, is it?). But I didn't mean "flimsy" as in "light", but as in "thin", "creaking" and "easily breakable".

 

[F107plus5]

Now, could somebody; anybody, please look at their current HD580, 600, or 650 and PLEASE tell us where the box or the phones say they're made!??

 

[Ikon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 Now, could somebody; anybody, please look at their current HD580, 600, or 650 and PLEASE tell us where the box or the phones say they're made!??

The HD580/HD600/HD650 are made at Sennheiser's facility in Tullamore, Ireland.

"Made In Ireland" is printed on the inside of the headband of my HD580, it was the same with my HD650 if I remember correctly.

 

[Samuli]

Reads "Made in Ireland" on my HD600, bought less than a year ago.