Where are all of the builders?
Jan 12, 2017 at 11:20 AM Post #61 of 113
As mentioned before, DIY isn't cheaper, especially considering equipment costs. It's a hobby. You can start off with a $15 soldering iron and a $5 DMM building something cool for yourself. It won't be as good as commercial products but it'll be your own.

Again, if you decide to try it out, you'll have lots of support.
 
Jan 12, 2017 at 11:37 AM Post #62 of 113
DIY certainly isn't the way to do go to save money :O from building my first cmoy clone 2 years ago to today I've spent enough I could have had a pair of Ragnaroks but that wouldn't have had the same satisfaction.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 9:16 AM Post #63 of 113
As The Godfather's of this forum it is one thing for you to say why people aren't participating. As a newbie myself I'm trying to give my perspective/experience. Economic facts are not the reason I feel discouraged from DIY.


If you have a particular personal problem with us, why not come out and state it? 
 
We've stated why we think DIY has been dwindling here (many times so far).  If you've had a specific experience at discouragement, let us know what that is and we can attempt to explain why that happened, if it did.  (There are sometimes good reasons for discouraging newbies with unrealistic expectations or skills.)  We could as least address it directly instead of this beating around the bush.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 10:26 AM Post #64 of 113
I don't have a problem with a specific individual, and I've never once indicated that. Disagreeing with your argument that money is the only killer of DIY does not constitute an ad hominem attack. I just think that there are far more nuances to the reason people aren't DIYing that aren't being discussed. For instance, no one has mentioned family responsibilities, one reason I don't DIY far more is because I have spousal needs I need to meet.

Apart from that, I've been trying to say I have a problem with the overall underlying tone of negativity towards newbies that I've seen in various different forums dealing with various different topics. Often a simple question will be asked but an overly complicated answer will be given. Or a newbie will express interest in a certain project that would be fine for them, but it is shot down by others as being a poor design or 'not how I would do it', and instead they recommend a totally different project that does not meet the goals of what the newbie asked for. Simple threads are derailed by unnecessary side discussions of quiescent current and Rp curves. If you are a pro DIYer this isn't intimidating to you. But to the newbie DIYer it is a major turnoff that kills enthusiasm and the desire to learn. While it is not overtly negative treatment it comes across as dismissive and haughty.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 11:20 AM Post #65 of 113
If someone told me they hiked to the summit of Mt Everest, I'd think they're pretty amazing. If they told me their first thought when they got to the top was how much money they spent to get there, I'd probably think they're not quite so amazing. If they told me they actually took a helicopter to the top instead because it was cheaper, I'd be sure that they're an idiot.  
 
I don't agree with the idea that DIY and commercial can be so easily compared on a price-to-price basis. DIY requires an investment in tools and materials, but I think that anyone that sticks with it can create something exceptional.  Will the first amp be amazing (aesthetically/objectively)?  Probably not.  If you keep building will your fit and finish and design theory improve?  Yes, absolutely.  This is just like anything in life.  Excellence takes patience and practice. 
 
If we view DIY simply as a substitute for buying commercial, the discussion always focuses on the bottom of the price brackets.  A Magni vs an Objective2 kit, for example. But DIY is a hobby, not a product. The more you put into it, the more you can take out of it. Anyone ever looked for quotes on an amplifier built to their exact specifications? Anyone ever tried to price out that awesome feeling you get when you power up something you built for the first time and it works? 
 
What I'm taking issue with here is the idea that we should settle for comparing DIY to commercial in a product sense. DIY isn't a product.  Again, DIY is a hobby.  If we (as people involved in DIY) settle for comparing DIY to commercial from the perspective of a price point, we shouldn't be surprised if interest wanes. Is a price point really what motivates you when you're in the middle of a build/design? Is the cost of parts the first thing you think about when you power up something you built with your own two hands?
 
PS Yeah, I know helicopters can't fly to the top of Everest.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 1:22 PM Post #66 of 113
Is a price point really what motivates you when you're in the middle of a build/design? 

 
Absolutely. But in a twisted sense.
tongue.gif

I don't care if somebody said some boutique parts are not going to help performance.... I'm doing it anyways.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 2:53 PM Post #67 of 113
I don't have a problem with a specific individual, and I've never once indicated that. Disagreeing with your argument that money is the only killer of DIY does not constitute an ad hominem attack.
 
Where did I say "only?"  I clearly identified several groups and stated the one group making economic decisions was "in-between."  However, I strongly believe it's the majority reason.  Geez, I often make decisions myself whether to buy something or build it (in areas other than headphone electronics) based on economics.  BTW, saving time is also often an economic decision.
 
Where did I accuse you of an ad hominem attack?
 
I just think that there are far more nuances to the reason people aren't DIYing that aren't being discussed. For instance, no one has mentioned family responsibilities, one reason I don't DIY far more is because I have spousal needs I need to meet.

Apart from that, I've been trying to say I have a problem with the overall underlying tone of negativity towards newbies that I've seen in various different forums dealing with various different topics. Often a simple question will be asked but an overly complicated answer will be given. Or a newbie will express interest in a certain project that would be fine for them, but it is shot down by others as being a poor design or 'not how I would do it', and instead they recommend a totally different project that does not meet the goals of what the newbie asked for. Simple threads are derailed by unnecessary side discussions of quiescent current and Rp curves. If you are a pro DIYer this isn't intimidating to you. But to the newbie DIYer it is a major turnoff that kills enthusiasm and the desire to learn. While it is not overtly negative treatment it comes across as dismissive and haughty.

 
"Overly complicated answer(s)" are in the eye of the recipient.  I suspect short and curt answers in this context would be interpreted as more discouragement ... perhaps even "dismissive and haughty."
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 4:45 PM Post #69 of 113
There is a huge difference between a lack of DIYers participating here on Head Fi and a lack of DIYers in general.  
 
The big DIY audio forum has nearly 400,000 registered members (note this doesn't count lurkers). There are 1,200 people looking at it right now. It had its highest traffic one year ago (10,000 people on the site at the same time). Is this all headphone focused?  No, it is not.  But general audio is just as much a market for low cost imports as headphones and the idea that DIY is being quashed by low cost commercial alternatives does not play out in the numbers in the slightest. 
 
The important distinction, I think, is that here at Head Fi we're attached to a larger forum focusing on commercial gear. There is no incentive for the organization to encourage the DIY spirit and support it as a community. Without leadership, from the site or from the community itself, people interested in DIY are going to migrate to places where more like-minded folks hang out. More importantly (at least IMO) there's also a group of would-be DIYers that won't take the leap because the community here is less than vibrant.  In that respect, you could say that commercial kills DIY, but that's not about pricing; it's about us being good stewards of the hobby.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 6:20 PM Post #70 of 113
I'm just gonna say one thing as a person who is still relatively green after all these years. If you ask for an opinion on a design, newbie or not, be prepared to get 10 different reasons why or why it's not worthwhile to persue. If you already are knowledgable enough to understand or counter that someone's response is invalid, I'd say you are probably past the newbie stage. Hopefully you've actually built it or something similar because I've found that what is simulated and the real thing can bring surprises. You will find that many of the "godfathers" don't want to hold someone's hand and spoon feed them. They want to give you part of an answer, steer you in a direction to learn yourself until you actually get to a wall you can't climb, then they'll help you more. They want to see some effort put in on your part to coincide with the knowledge and advice they are freely willing to give. In the end the choice is yours to use it or not. Remember, a lot of the "Godfathers" are the designers of the amps and projects your wanting to build. I've personally never once had someone not help me get past a stumbling block on this forum or any other. Remember, it's DIY, not having someone else do it for you. If that's the case get a kit or a proven pcb and be done because the cost and time to experiment is part of the gig.

As a side note, if you want to see some arguing just do a search at audioasylum for low DSR. That's was, or maybe still is, a very touchy subject.
 
Jan 13, 2017 at 11:54 PM Post #71 of 113
  I used to have fun browsing headfi DIY section. Some decisions and attitude of management practically kill it – not the lack of demand or need for DIY. Other reasons are secondary. May be it was too successful and was made decision to kill the traffic. I don’t know. I respect headfi. It's still a great resource for people who like good sound. My 02 cents.
Vlad.

 
Such as? I'm no longer moderating, but since I was effectively much of the "management" over many years, I'd like to know what I did to kill DIY, considering I didn't do any other than ban most group buys after a few extreme disasters, and I never got paid to admin the forums and certainly have no idea what "traffic" the site received for the most part. That would be like saying that hardware stores are a threat to manufacturers. The only thing that happened, not mentioned by anyone, is that a couple of people used what they did as an excuse to attack manufacturers, tainting much of their efforts.
 
If any of the regulars had PMed me asking if they could do a board or parts buy, I would likely have said yes. Why the DIY forum isn't as active is less people posting about it. Simple as that. Why? Probably for the reasons other people gave, but mainly that there is more interest in the world in instant gratification. 
 
I'm ignorant on what happened to group buys and why new development isn't here anymore. Why is this?

 
http://www.head-fi.org/a/group-buys
 
But see above. Board buys were never forbidden. Nobody asked! There was an is no reason a managed group build of a product couldn't have gone on the front page either. Again, nobody ever asked.
 
   
I don't necessarily think that the lower interest in DIY is Head-Fi's fault as much as it is the market.  Yes, Head-Fi has forbidden Group Buys.  That said, I understand their position and they probably didn't have a choice.  Group Buys evolved into making large buys of headphones, cables, and other things besides just DIY.  A few of those resulted in the organizers simply disappearing with all the money.
 
I remember having a conversation with Justin of Headamp at a meet a few years ago.  He said he never had an issue with theft or dishonest transactions until he started selling headphones themselves.  So maybe there's something about a huge market and items of relatively small physical size that attracts people with less than honest intent.  In the end, it was probably way too much to expect Head-Fi to allow Group Buys for DIY but forbid it elsewhere.  Heck - no offense to others reading this thread - but some of the mods around here probably don't know the difference between a real DIY product and one that's not.
wink.gif

 
As for the overall market and DIY - I've noted and stated this before.  I've been heavily involved, on and off, with the model airplane industry since the 60's.  (To be clear - I was just a kid back then!)  For several decades, the only way to get a really high-performing RC or control line airplane was to build it yourself (kit or from scratch).  Readily built planes simply did not exist.  There were some plastic offerings (Cox, Wen-Mac), but they were really just toys and mostly pure junk.  Then something happened beginning at the turn of the millennium - labor from China/Asia was incredibly cheap and suddenly became available world-wide.  Within a few years, kits and parts for scratch-built designs became scarce.  "Real" kits have almost disappeared from the market.  Instead, you have ARF's (Almost Ready to Fly) and RTF's (Ready To Fly) available everywhere for cheaper than you could buy a kit and put one together.  That pretty much left DIY to the highly-experienced, design-and-scratch-build folks.  The masses left the DIY culture.
 
I think the comparison is completely analogous with headphone electronics.  Schiit and equipment from China/Asia is so much cheaper than anyone can build, it's removed all but the most experienced DIY-er's.  They in turn, have little interest in putting in effort unless it's for top-of-the-line performance.  Or, some have left completely and are custom-building on their own or manufacturing premium designs.  This has the effect of shrinking the entire community, as no one is really reaching out to beginners anymore - unless it's for something outrageously simple, like cables and blu-tack.  Sad, but I guess it's a natural evolution of the market - as with others before.

 
This more or less, except, as I said, nobody asked! Nobody that I recall even brought it up with me.
 
I actually had a plan to make DIY and proper technical audio discussion more prominent, but it didn't end up happening. There is nothing stopping anyone building up the DIY forum again, except you have to ask Jude directly about group buys and not me any longer.
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 9:46 AM Post #74 of 113
Hey, I have a good idea...Lets design and build something!
I have a project if anyone is interested.


I'm in! I actually happen to be working on a simple amp in the spirit of the starving student (different tube, same power supply brick, same mosfets). It will be posted as soon as I test it.
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 10:21 AM Post #75 of 113
Sounds good.
I'm up for a solid state amp and a pcm1794a based DAC.
 
These would be built with easy to obtain components that
anyone can buy, no NDA or bulk buy required.
 
The amp would be something like the PPA2 (op amp with diamond buffer)
but with either two or four channels.
Also, the power supply would use the Kubota topology.
 
The DAC would use the PCM1794a but I'm up for suggestions
whether to do SP/DIF or USB and what controller.
 
Lets get this DIY section started again!
 

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