[maverickronin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by beeman458 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Sorry, "Placebo," in this case, is the scientific excuse because their tests suck wind so badly.
 

So why do those same tests show people can differentiate different codecs, bitrates, amps, and speakers but not cables?
 
Your hypothesis needs to explain not only the mechanism by which cables change the sound, but also how it manages to actually do that while failing the same tests which detect everything else which people agree does make a difference.  That is, if you want to be taken seriously by anyone with an understanding of logic, evidence, and the scientific method.
 
You keep asserting that DBTs can't detect differences in cables, but you provide no evidence nor logical argument to back it up.  Furthermore, you have not even demonstrated that these differences even exist.  If DBTs can't find them and neither can measurements, how do you know they are actually there.  You may think they are there, or believe that they are there, but knowledge is demonstrable.
 
If you can't show it, you don't know it.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Science can't tell you how wide the soundstage or how tall it is? Science can't tell you if the Headphone cable is going to be bright or dark sounding. Science can't tell what the timbre is like. Science has its place but if you only use it you will be losing out on a whole lot to experience.

 

[ninjikiran]

Actually sound stage can in a sense be explained by science.. the science of how our brain processes sound and positions them in our 3d world.  The first line for that is the actual recording, which uses mics and many other tools to mimic what they want us to hear.  An extreme example of this is a binaural track in which if they want you to hear the sound of a drum snare 5 feet behind you they can.  Second line is the headphones themselves considering the design of the headphones, and the quality of the driver can really effect how we perceive the spatial image the artist wanted us to see.
 
Meaning even on cheap headphones sound stage can exist, it just won't be very good.  You can use software as well, with the obvious coloration of the sound signal.
 
There are two ways to distort the sound stage of a given song.  Large differences in certain audio frequencies(Can be proven by measurements), or listening at a volume level which is too high or too low.  This is because any change in amplitude can change the position of the sound in our head.
 
Now there are factors that can distort an analog signal which can be measured~  Problem is a good cable should technically be transparent in this regard. With less distance between device and cables being optimal.
 
I'll say it again though, I am sure you  can get someone better than me can explain this and if I am wrong anywhere they can fix it.
 
End of the day though there is nothing terribly wrong with replacing your headphone cable, most headphone cables are supposed to be pretty bad.  Whether their bad characteristics change sound in any way is irrelevant to a stronger better designed cable.  Problem is you can pay way less than $100 for this~
 
Quote from the glossary of terms,
 
Quote:

Bright - A sound that emphasizes the upper midrange/lower treble. Harmonics are strong relative to fundamentals.
Dark - A tonal balance that tilts downwards with increasing frequency. Opposite of bright. Weak high frequencies.

Considering they are frequencies they can most definitely be measured.
 
As for Timbre, I am going to guess many things can effect this.  Don't really have anything to say for it, not knowledgeable enough and nothing immediately comes to my head.

 

[beeman458]

maverickronin wrote:
 
So why do those same tests show people can differentiate different codecs, bitrates, amps, and speakers but not cables?
 
And there's similar tests that show that folks can't tell differences on codecs, higher bitrates, amps and DACS.  Means nothing.
 
Your hypothesis needs to explain not only the mechanism by which cables change the sound, but also how it manages to actually do that while failing the same tests which detect everything else which people agree does make a difference.
 
I'm a Pest Control Operator.  I'm neither sound engineer nor electrical engineer, so that leaves me out being able to explain what's what.  Second, I've stated no hypothesis other than I can and you or others can't hear a difference and how happy I am for all those who can't hear a difference.  And as to the tests, that's easy and I've pointed out many, many times how flawed the tests are and I've articulated the why.  I'm not going try to change anybody's bias regarding the invalidity of DBT's.  You have your biased flawed proof and I'm happy for you.  You keep believing that you're right.  I'm happy for you.
 
You keep asserting that DBTs can't detect differences in cables, but you provide no evidence nor logical argument to back it up.
 
Again, over and over and over and over and over I've presented my logic.  Logic that doesn't work for you and others, aaaaand?  I'm not worried if someone accepts my logic or not.  So now, you're on your own as continuing to try to help you and others see is tedious and pointless as your bias' are in the way and at this time and point I personally don't care if someone has flawed data to back-up their assertions and I don't care if somebody can't hear a difference.  Why?  That's their problem, not mine.
 
Furthermore, you have not even demonstrated that these differences even exist.
 
That's because I haven't tried to demonstrate anything, and I've clearly stated as much in the past, therefore........
 
If DBTs can't find them and neither can measurements, how do you know they are actually there.
 
Because unlike you or others, I trust my hearing as it's saved me in more situations then I can count, has taught me much as I've learned to "see with my ears" and I've learned to trust what they tell me.
 
You may think they are there, or believe that they are there, but knowledge is demonstrable.
 
And if I buy into your above, then I'm just as guilty of auto-suggestion as you're accusing me of being a victim of.  Auto-suggestion is a two-way street.  Accept it, you can't hear a difference and it's okay.  If you want to believe your bogus DBT's, go for it, I'm happy for you.
 
"If you can't show it, you don't know it."
 
You keep believing your above and I'm sure your above will serve you well in life.  I'm sure you've taken the time to audition decent cables.  I'm sorry you wasted your time and you weren't able to perceive an audio difference.
 
Right now, I'm listening to Miles Davis from a music library that's been ripped for a third time, via the almost four-hundred USD custom headphone cables that I gladly hit the hip for.  Do you really think for a moment I give a fig how I got here?  It's all a part of a synergistic chain from the electricity coming into the house to the sound waves being interrupted by the efficiency of your ear drums and everything in the middle.  It's all about enjoyment and happiness.  You or others don't want to buy expensive headphone cables, I'm happy for you.
 
And in the end, what you miss, my continued happiness is all I need to tell I made the right decision and you, you need your tests to prove that I made the wrong decision.
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
If science is to be prohibited in the other forums, why should religion be allowed here?
 
se
 

 

[beeman458]

If science is to be prohibited in the other forums, why should religion be allowed here?
 
Actually, this thread came from the DBT free forum, so you'll have to ask whom ever chose to move the thread.  And besides the thread title was asking for views so in the case of this thread, it's open season.  FWIW, I think it was moved to accommodate those who hug their tests at night cause it gives them comfort.  But, I'm still at a loss where your religion comment comes into play.
 

 

[Skoobs]

everyone knows that each conductor has a different sound when hooked up to headphones. that is because jesus loves all of his conductors equally, and thusly wanted each one to have its own unique application. DUH.
 
Quote:

Well you cant, and thats just it. We can say various things on both sides as to why its real or not, proven or placebo, but at the end of the day the people who can hear differences are going to continue to buy cables and get further enjoyment (hopefully) and others who don't believe in it will continue to sit back and wonder why.
 
I can hear differences, others cant; however for those who cant, id advise to make sure that you are listening to two different cables that are both claiming to change the sound. Switching from a stock to... nucleotide might not change much but switching from a stock to silver to blue dragon will be a day and night difference.

so neither upgrade is different than stock, but they are different from each other? does that mean stock cables are the "Ditto" of the sound realm? (yes, that was a pokemon reference)
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Right now, I'm listening to Miles Davis from a music library that's been ripped for a third time, via the almost four-hundred USD custom headphone cables that I gladly hit the hip for.  Do you really think for a moment I give a fig how I got here?

That really explains it all I guess.  You don't care, you don't understand, you don't even want to understand, so you make no attempt to try to understand no matter how clearly someone lays it out for you.  You insulate yourself in a cocoon of fantasy and subjectivity where you feel safe and secure while lashing out at people who dare to expose you to reality because you find it distasteful.
 
Far to many people take this position, and for the life of me I don't understand it.

 

[beeman458]

You don't care, you don't understand, you don't even want to understand, so you make no attempt to try to understand no matter how clearly someone lays it out for you.  You insulate yourself in a cocoon of fantasy and subjectivity where you feel safe and secure while lashing out at people who dare to expose you to reality because you find it distasteful.
 
If that's how you want to characterize what I write, so be it.
 
Far to many people take this position, and for the life of me I don't understand it.
 
Based upon what you wrote in your first comment, I'm not surprised.
 

 

[Skoobs]

and so starts the bashing. 
 
cant just leave it at "i believe i hear a difference, so i am going to spend hundreds on a cable" and "i dont think there is a difference so i am going to pass on the cable."
 
i come from a capitalist nation, where everyone has the right to sell people feces as long as you can convince them they need it, and everyone has the right to pass up $0.99 per gallon gasoline if they dont think it is useful. 

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Quote:

That really explains it all I guess.  You don't care, you don't understand, you don't even want to understand, so you make no attempt to try to understand no matter how clearly someone lays it out for you.  You insulate yourself in a cocoon of fantasy and subjectivity where you feel safe and secure while lashing out at people who dare to expose you to reality because you find it distasteful.
 
Far to many people take this position, and for the life of me I don't understand it.

 
Your cocoon is better?  Is that what you're saying?  

 
Afterall, it's you who wrote, and in such boldened characters:
 
 
"If you can't show it, you don't know it."

 

[Albedo]

I voted Maybe (IE balanced) ->  mismatch concerning impedance, inductance, shielding, noise, state of oxidation, temperature of the soldering work Et Cetera Ad Infinitum. 
+
The human factor (listener), DBT the James Randi way vs. Anjou Pear Cable, but might add that I somewhat "believe" Supra patented solutions and what they say about directionality.
=
This means that custom cables are Yes, if they don't cost much and aren't somewhat exotic both in price and claims. Might add that Aleister Crowley once said: "Never haggle over the price of a Talisman".

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Casual listeners would not be able to tell. Also if you do not know what to listen for? Somethings just come with time.
 


 

So the difference, if there is any is tiny. You listen for a difference in the sound, any will do. If it comes with time, it is because it is your mind adjusting to the sound as there is no change that happens in a cable over time.
 
Quote:

Science can't tell you how wide the soundstage or how tall it is? Science can't tell you if the Headphone cable is going to be bright or dark sounding. Science can't tell what the timbre is like. Science has its place but if you only use it you will be losing out on a whole lot to experience.

As ninjikiran put so well, that is not the case. Nothing that you describe is attributable to a cable. However, the design that goes into speaker manufacturing takes all of the above into account which results in speakers sounding different.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

maverickronin wrote:
 
So why do those same tests show people can differentiate different codecs, bitrates, amps, and speakers but not cables?
 
And there's similar tests that show that folks can't tell differences on codecs, higher bitrates, amps and DACS.  Means nothing.
 
............

Which means that those differences are small, but they are still there. Hence they can be detected, just not all the time by all people. Which is where the 'golden ears' idea comes from. To then apply 'golden ears' to cables is wrong as tests find no difference. That is very much self delusion. But we are happy you are happy that you can still hear a difference.

 

[BIG POPPA]

 I make the cables I use, have several headphone cables and some recabled headphones. To me it is easy to tell the difference in headphone cables. Will be listening to some LCD-2's this weekend and will have the ALO cable to play with again. How many more meets do I need to organize to prove my point? Only do it 4-5 times a year plus all the other ones I go to? When are the anti guys going to get of their computer and put their ideas to a crowd? Never seen one of their meets on the "Meet" forum?
 
Quote:

 


So the difference, if there is any is tiny. You listen for a difference in the sound, any will do. If it comes with time, it is because it is your mind adjusting to the sound as there is no change that happens in a cable over time.
 

As ninjikiran put so well, that is not the case. Nothing that you describe is attributable to a cable. However, the design that goes into speaker manufacturing takes all of the above into account which results in speakers sounding different.