[Inks]

 Yeah nice analogy, but my comments are there for a purpose. Some of use don't like those colorations and find them unnatural, the enhancements should be there to complement the good sound not artificially improve average performance. It's subjective to some extent I'll admit that, many users like the enhancements and find their sound there. 
 
Sabatar, if someone is losing credibility there it's you. Did you forget I mentioned the S:Flo2 as the best sounding DAP I've heard? I tell it how it is, not every Apple DAP is great sounding but in general the brand has done better than Sony and Cowon sound wise. For those picky sensitive BA IEMs the Clip+ is also up there. 

 

[DigitalFreak]

Quote:

 
You work for Apple?
 
 

Come on guys let's keep it professional and not get into a fan boy flame war. All I'm looking for is advice on how to improve my mobile setup not watch tech geek world war 1000.
 

 

[Inks]

Considering your cans DF, I'll look into the S:Flo2 if you can overlook it's poor UI for absolutely the best sound. You can also take it up a notch with an amp since it's the least expensive recommendation in this post. For storage with good sound quality the newest Classic is also a good option as it also boots good power output. Then you can look into the J3 or Ipod Touch 4G, the Touch sounds a tad better but it's generally not a big difference, you should look into other aspects instead (itunes vs no-itunes/wifi vs no wifi/etc.). 

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

Can somebody share Inks's opinion?
 
I am listening to a Touch 3G, but i find it quite bad. I hope the Cowons are (alot) clearer and have bigger soundstage. 
Is there any way you can actually test a Cowon in a store?

I'm with Inks on this.  I had an iaudio7 (Cowon) which was a great little DAP - really good SQ, amazing battery life.  Would never have touched (pardon the pun) Apple - until I was given an iPod Touch G4 as part of a rewards scheme.  Got to A/B both over an extensive period.  From my own experience - I think both Cowons and the iPod Touch G4 are very good DAPs for the money.  I'd say the SQ was a wash really.
 
Here's main points .....
 
iPod Touch G4 - 
Pros - best UI (IMO), very good SQ, good EQ - if you use Equalizer or Equ apps, has a line out, can play lossless (ALAC), has wifi, biggest selection of apps, iPod docks are everywhere (think cars / stereos etc)
Cons - tied to itunes, no expandable memory, battery life while good is not as great as Cowon, can't play FLAC (there is an app you can add though)
 
Cowon (while I haven't extensively tried the J3 - I have tried it)
Pros - good SQ, great SQ with the right EQ (and the EQ tools are really good), can play more formats including FLAC and ogg, expandable memory, great battery life, drag n drop interface
Cons - UI not quite as good - can fix with community UI developments, fewer apps, no wifi, no line out, not many apps
 
I'm not an Apple fanboi - far from it - I use what works for me.  I use Linux at home, so you can imagine what a pain being tied to iTunes is (I actually have a netbook running win7 just for iTunes now).  After extensive testing, I sold the iAudio7 and kept the Touch.  For my use, it sounded as good as the Cowon (actually sounded better if both playing flat - no EQ).  With a portable AMP from the LOD, I have great scalability.
 
The thing is - comparing Cowon J3 and iPod Touch G4 - there is no 'best' IMO.  They are both great DAPs.  It just depends on what pros/cons you value most.
 
What continues to peeve me is the amount of people who continually rubbish Apple without trying their products.  I suppose ignorance is bliss.
 
My 2c only
Here's the RMAA analysis for J3 - http://www.markuskraus.com/RMAA/j3/data.htm

And for the iPhone 4 - http://www.markuskraus.com/RMAA/iPhone4/data.htm
 
Once again - they're both very good DAPs.  Just got an iPhone 4 (work) - it also sounds fantastic.

 

[Donnyhifi]

About the whole Ipod stuff, I really tried to like my 3GS but it really doesn't cut it. Sure, the iPhone 4 is a bit better than the 3GS and the IPOD Touch 4G sounds descent but they don't compare to the S9, my sis(she has excellent ears) and I were comparing her IPOD 32GB 4G and we both agreed you get more detail, fullness and spacious sound with the Cowon S9, we were using my Custom Fitear MH334 as a reference point.
Try and check out the Demo units if you can and play with the J3 settings, it will help you make the right decision.
The ipod is a descent sounding player but the Cowon is just plain better. Get the J3 and call it a day

 
PS I work for Cowon!

 
 
Kidding!

 

[b0wl1ng]

The best true portable DAP is the Ipod 5.5 video 80gb, this has the Wolfson WM8758 DAC, this is considered an audiophile quality codec and the best that has been installed into any ipod to date.
LOD is essential, to further improve quality, rockbox it, to then put it into a totally different league to every other DAP out there, Imod/diymod it.
I have owned every ipod version and have the touch 3rd gen, I have heard the majority of all the other devices mentioned.

 

[Danneq]

If you want current mainstream DAP's, how about Cowon J3 or C2? Sansa Clip+ and Fuze is good as well, and you can put Rockbox on them, which is superior to the original firmware. The current Sony A series is pretty good as well, but unfortunately the European has got a volume restriction that doesn't seem to be user removable.
 
For older good sounding DAP's I'd say iRiver H120 or Toshiba Gigabeat. They can both be Rockboxed and sound great. Sony HD5 is a very good sounding oldie. My favorite would have to be either the Kenwood HDD series or the Victor/JVC XA HD 500. They are both very hard to come by and the Victor is limited by a mere 6GB capacity.
 
You could always buy a cheap Sansa Clip+, put Rockbox on it, fiddle around with the settings, and then compare it to your iPod's and see which one you prefer.
 
If you are talking smaller specialized companies, I have no experience of their DAP's. But my position is this: Unless a DAP makes me coffee AND massages my feet, I'm not paying something like $500 or more for a portable music player.

 

[TheDreamthinker]

Sorry for answering so late in the thread, i was away for a few hours.
I am using a HiFiman re262, without an amp, but i intend on getting one. A ccmoy bassboost, a fiio e11 or something else in the pricerange.
 
As I have tried the 3G and 4G numerous times, i wanted to get the next generation of the D3, as the Touch doesn't "reach my wishing standard" for my taste. By that i want to say that they really irritate me, as i can't stop noticing the for me countless flaws.  I haven't tried any Cowons yet, but I hope that they are (much)better (and less mainstream).

 

[TheDreamthinker]

Quote:

Well done on choosing the RE262s - they are simply the best value iems on the market, a stonkingly great sounding piece of ear kit.

For what it's worth, after quite a journey through various combinations of DAPs, IEMs and portable amps, I'm truly happy with my J3 / Headstage Arrow / RE262 combo.
 
The RE262s definitely benefit from amping, given their high impedence, and when used with the J3 on 'Headphone 2' preset, really sing.  The beauty of the J3 is the presets are actually pretty good, and you also get 4 user-definable custom slots and a semi-parametric 5 band equaliser to play with, so you can tweak to your heart's content.  Compared to the rubbish settings Apple present you with, the J3 urinates all over them.
 

Thanks, but when i first heard them, i was less than not impressed. In fact, i didn't like it at all.
But than it broke, which made me dislike it even more.
 
But after i compared it to the other top -tier iems as the ie8, triple-fi 10 and a Bang & Olfsen (which was not even bad), I found it relatively good. The vocals are relatively smooth, compared to other iems. So at this point i can say that they are in some way worth their money, but i they didn't/don't blow my mind.
I hope to improve that with an amp. Of course you need to take into consideration, that i still using it with an unamped nano 3G. 
 
The Arrow way out of my pricerange (at least for now and the near future).

 

[JCS]

I like Sony.  I've had the Touch (3g), HifiMan HM-602, Nano (really old model), Clip+, and the Sony A728 and S754. I demoed a few PMPs and the J3. 
 
Touch 3G: Like watered down whiskey; thin, cold, and not enough oomph.  The EQ was unusable.  I did get a brief demo with the new EQ on a friend's ipod and it sounded better but not great.  
 
HiFiMan HM-602:  It is a cliche, but I did hear details I'd never heard before.  Not while I was listening critically, either.  I would be doing some paperwork and my head would snap up because I heard an extra voice in a song I'd listened to many times.  And I'd rewind and replay over and over again.  Separation and soundstage were very nice.  Unfortunately, the UI is glitchy.  And mine broke within 2 weeks.  
 
Sound-wise, the 602 suffered from muted / nearly non-existent bass and a lack of sparkle at the top end.  Some may enjoy this.  I prefer Sonys with Grados, and so my tastes were and are simply different.
 
Clip+:  Severely over-hyped, a completely forgettable purchase, and the beginning of my wariness of online reviews at Head-Fi.  It sounds just like its frequency chart looks: flat.  This is not a compliment.  It may be neutral, but it's dull on top of neutral with an atrocious EQ.  I tried Rockboxing it and it still sucks.  I find the argument "it reproduces neutral sound, the way it's meant to be heard" to be a spurious one.  No one wants their music to sound like that.  It only sounds half-way decent when paired with my Sony MDR-X700 headphones.
 
Nano:  Terrible.  
 
Sonys A728 and 754:  The reliability and the EQ are what make these DAPs first in my book.  Good punch when needed for hip-hop / RnB, strong mids when playing an Unplugged or blues album, and nice treble when needed (all with different EQ settings).  50 hours of battery for music.  
 
Cons: Screens are tiny, so watching long videos is not much of an option.  Also contributing to this is small storage space; both of my Walkmen are 8gig models.  Bass boost indeed boosts bass but sacrifices some detail.  It does not sound muddy, however, which is a common complaint with enhanced bass.  With enhanced treble, there is some sibilance in certain tracks.  On the whole though, the best EQ I've ever used.  I suppose I do enjoy "colored" sound.  
 
J3:  Unimpressed, though I see how people could like it, if its sound is your thing.
 
 

 

[Achmedisdead]

Quote:

Buying a J3 and not using the sound enhancements is like buying a car and never putting petrol in it.

 


 

The Cowon enhancements can quickly lead to an artificial sound if you're not careful. But their players sound no better than any other without using them. But used carefully, the enhancements work very well.
 

 

[Donnyhifi]

Quote:

The Cowon enhancements can quickly lead to an artificial sound if you're not careful. But their players sound no better than any other without using them. But used carefully, the enhancements work very well.
 

I concur, you can over tweak the enhancements to the point where the iPhone 3GS sounds much better, its better to go with small increments one step at a time. If done properly the enhancements improve the sound quite nicely without sounding artificial.
 

 

[CJG888]

The iPod Classic 160GB shines more in terms of versatility and capacity than in terms of SQ. I have found that mine sounds noticeable inferior to my old 2004 vintage 20GB model via LOD - these days, it lives in an ND-S1 and feed a LD DAC_1 / LD Mk. III / HD600, and sounds very good. Hardly portable, though......
 
For OTG use, I have switched to a QLS QA350 Mod. V2 (the one with the upgraded headphone amp). Out of the box, it trounces my old combination of iPod Classic / LOD / Meier Corda XXS. However, this is good old 1980s-style cottage industry hifi. That means:
 
(i) "Home-made" aesthetics, sharp edges and bulky form factor. It looks like someone assembled it from the Maplin catalogue! And it is about the same size (and weight) as 4 iPods. As it uses 2 RC Li-Po cells, it also requires a bulky, dedicated balanced charger. Worryingly, the manual warns against leaving the charger unattended when in operation!
 
(ii) Clunky, 1980s style user interface, combined with a next-to-useless display. Feels like an old cassette Walkman to operate (but sounds as good as a WM-DC6

).
 
(iii) It plays WAVs, and only WAVs. That's it. And it's best if you extract them from CD using the latest version of EAC. Of course, you supply your own SD card.......
 
If you can live with the inconvenience and challenging looks, you should be satisifed. It will even drive HD600s well from its internal amp (although I have a pair of GR07s on order for OTG use). Up to now, most OTG listening has been via Denon AH-D1001s (a synergistic if bulky match). Think of the QLS as the Caterham Supersport of DAPs. You probably need another one to go with it for occasions when the QLS is just too bl**dy inconvenient - it won't sound as good, though!
 
Now, if QLS could come up with a DAP with a tube output stage (maybe using Nuvistors)........

 

[germe83]

Quote:

 
Clip+:  Severely over-hyped, a completely forgettable purchase, and the beginning of my wariness of online reviews at Head-Fi.  It sounds just like its frequency chart looks: flat.  This is not a compliment.

 
Responses like this are exactly the reason there will never be 1 universal answer to the question "best dap ever?"
 

 

[CJG888]

Without wishing to be pedantic, the question refers purely to the issue of sound, not qualities as an all-round product.
 
The initial question (remember?) was asked by a poster using a similar setup based around an iPod Classic - which I also find sounds distinctly underwhelming. There are clearly excellent DAPs out there at higher price points (HM801, Colorfly etc.),  but price was specifically stated as an issue. I don't claim to have heard all of the relevant competitors (who has?), but I can state that the HM601 sounds veiled and boring (a subjective statement, but then I generally dislike the NOS sonic signature). The Cowon players also sound good (even without using EQ), but the QLS is an off-the-wall option which no-one on this post had mentioned yet. It is far from perfect, but worth considering if SQ is the only criterion. Note, also, that I am referring to the V2 model with the newer headphone amp. I have not heard the earlier version, so cannot comment.
 
In terms of sonic signature, the QLS offers a combination of resolution and soundstaging which make it suitable for listening to complex orchestral music for extended periods of time. Instrumental separation is good, timbre / tonal accuracy is acceptable, but not class leading. Dynamics are significantly better than the iPod Classic / Meier combination (when using headphones of a sensible impedance - the HD600s are on the high side, the Denons work better), and the DAP is successful in conveying a sense of scale. It is a compromise - how could it not be at the price?