[rds]

Quote:

I think he's kidding, though I'm not sure.  To rds, that is why I suggested producing this potential line along with the standard Grado line so that those(like yourself) that prefer the original style, still have purchase options.

Yeah, I am kidding about those.  If you ever see those terms in audio marketing copy rest assured that what you're reading is total bs.
I think Grado is a terrible 'me too' company and should stick to their strengths (see below).

 
Quote:

They're trying to hit the IEM market, so that's something.

...and that was such a failure.  They tried to jump on the bandwagon and fell flat on their face.  It's sad and it lowers my respect for what they do.
I'd be tempted to agree with those that claim all the good ideas left with Joe Grado and the best the company can do now is to keep reproducing his designs.  However, one new product that I thought was very good is the GS-1000i.  I've never heard something that comes close for low volume listening.  I really think it's a very special headphone.

 

[Digital-Pride]

You can't blame them for trying to tap into what has become a pretty big market segment.  It seems like good business to me.  How they went about doing it I agree is a bit suspect.  Perhaps their iem range is too top heavy and in need of diversification price and choice wise?

 

[buffalowings]

I'm not sure what it is, but I would more readily spend $400/300 for another brand of IEM's than grado
Quote:

You can't blame them for trying to tap into what has become a pretty big market segment.  It seems like good business to me.  How they went about doing it I agree is a bit suspect.  Perhaps their iem range is too top heavy and in need of diversification price and choice wise?
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

However, one new product that I thought was very good is the GS-1000i.  I've never heard something that comes close for low volume listening.  I really think it's a very special headphone.

My opinion is that headphones with such an aggressive smile curve for low volume listening should be closed and have some isolation.  You pretty much need a dedicated listening room to use open 'phones at such a low volume.  That's why I hated the DT990s and from the graphs the GS1000is look even worse in that regard.  If you've got a dedicated listening room then you're pretty close to being better off with speakers.  I'm not going to say there's no use for an open 'phone with that kind of FR but its certainly not a common need.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I'm not sure what it is, but I would more readily spend $400/300 for another brand of IEM's than grado
Quote:

Grado doesn't make those themselves anyway.  They're OEM'ed from a Japanese company whose name I can't remember.  Its in the GR10 thread somewhere.

 

[buffalowings]

Quote:

Grado doesn't make those themselves anyway.  They're OEM'ed from a Japanese company whose name I can't remember.  Its in the GR10 thread somewhere.

ortofon...or at least ortofon uses the same driver technology as grado. either way, grado is still overpricing their offerings compared to them

 

[bbophead]

My unasked for advice:  If you don't like Grados, don't buy them.  My dealer told me this past week that their headphones are backordered 3-4 weeks.  I like them.  Apparently, many others do as well.

 

[maverickronin]

Here it is.  The Yashima N20.

 

[Digital-Pride]

Buffalowings, I think your feelings stem from a number of things:style, packaging, and percieved quality.  First style, in the crowed iem market one needs to have a style that stands a bit or at least looks desirable.  While the GR series have a nice underdstated elegance to them that will appeal to some, they will undoubtly will look plain and boring to others especially those who are perhaps unfamiliar with the Grado brand.  Second, while this may seem like not really a big deal, the way an iem, especially the pricey ones, is packaged goes a long way in reasuring the buyer that they're really getting their money's worth.  To give you an example, Shure's SE535 come in a very nice looking package, not just that but it aslo comes with a carrying case, stereo jack adapter, several tips of various sizes, volume level control, and an airline style jack.  The GR series by comparison come in very plain looking packaging with only extra tips included as extra.  Finally, when spending money on top-tier iems one expects them to have top build quality so that one feels their initial investment lasts a good long while.  To use the Shures again as an example, when one looks at the strong detachable cable, and overall build quality of the Shures, you certainly get the feeling of yes, I am getting an iem for the long haul.  With the GR series, not so much.  This is merely an opinion and an observation in general, so any GR fans do not take this as me nocking your iems, more as what I think Grado can do to improve the appeal of their iem line.

 

[Digital-Pride]

Quote:

Here it is.  The Yashima N20.

So their top teir iems are not even in-house and they charge that much?!  Wow.

 

[buffalowings]

Quote:

Here it is.  The Yashima N20.

 


Quote:

BuffaIowings, I think your feelings stem from a number of things:style, packaging, and percieved quality.  First style, in the crowed iem market one needs to have a style that stands a bit or at least looks desirable.  While the GR series have a nice underdstated elegance to them that will appeal to some, they will undoubtly will look plain and boring to others especially those who are perhaps unfamiliar with the Grado brand.  Second, while this may seem like not really a big deal, the way an iem, especially the pricey ones, is packaged goes a long way in reasuring the buyer that they're really getting their money's worth.  To give you an example, Shure's SE535 come in a very nice looking package, not that but it aslo comes with carrying case, stereo jack adapter, several tips of various sizes, volume level control, and an airline style jack.  The GR series by comparison come in a very plain looking packaging with only extra tips included as extra.  Finally, when spending money on top-tier iems one expects them to have top build quality so that one feels their initial investment last a good long while.  To use the Shures again as an example, when one looks at the strong detachable cable, and overall build quality of the Shures you certainly get the feeling of yes I am getting an iem for the long haul.  With the GR series, not so much.  This is merely an opinion and an observation in general, so any GR fans do not take this as me nocking your iems, more as what I think Grado can do to improve the appeal of their iem line.

 

 
Quote:

So their top teir iems are not even in-house and they charge that much?!  Wow.

X2, rebranding really makes a product feel very impersonal and detached from the brand

 

[estreeter]

I still think the debate comes down to market forces - those who like Grado products will continue to buy them. While I dont want to lump Grado with Sony/Bose/Apple, the parallel is obvious - all are positioned as 'premium' products, regardless of the underlying technology. Go to the Apple store and option up a Mac Pro to the max, then look at the dollar figure. Now go to the Dell site and do the same thing ......

 

[wind016]

So wait... I would still like to see a frequency graph of the SR200 or HP1000. I can't really believe that Grado used to have good mids. That's exactly the opposite of what they're doing.
 
They charge $1000 for this:
 

 
and the GS1000i sounded exactly as it looks here.
They also charge $1700 for this:

 
Grado had the reputation of having good mids, then they decide to do the complete opposite? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Bilavideo]

I think this debate is a little like the question, "Why did you kill your wife?"  There's this big assumption that Grado's reputation has taken some huge beating.  I don't see it.  The same people who've always loved Grados still love them.  The same people who always hated them still hate them.  There are people who come along and express a curiosity about Grados, but Grado has always been a niche, boutique little headphone company.  I don't want to see the day when Grados are sold in Best Buy and Walmart.  Grado's basic, minimalist, concept of a driver and a shell is brilliant and wonderful.  When it tries to sell big differences between plastic Grados, it may sound a little earnest - like a carnival barker guessing your weight - but that's the audio world in general.  
 
A number of major brands had a civil war over their flagship can.  Sennheiser had a rift between HD600 and HD650 fans.  beyerdynamics had a rift between DT880 and DT990 fans.  Grado had their own tempest in a teapot over the RS1 and the GS1000.  In each case, the company solved its own problem by coming up with an "all new headphone" that essentially found a way to please both camps.  The HD800 unified the Sennheiser folks.  The T1 ended some brawls at beyerdynamics.  For a time, the PS1000 pacified the infighting over whether the GS1000 was the rightful successor to the RS1, a fight brought on by Grado's attempt to respond to criticisms about comfort, soundstage and bass.  To his credit, John Grado listened and designed a headphone to satisfy those criticisms.  The GS1000 was the most comfortable Grado ever; it had the largest soundstage; and it had the thumpiest bass of them all.  The RS1 lovers, whose "flagship cans" stood to lose their special place, found fault with the new "refined" Grado.  Instead of scrapping the GS1000, Grado pressed forward with the PS1000, which brought back the midrange, reduced the thump to more reasonable levels, and created - in essence - a fusion of the RS1 and the GS1000.
 
Now, let's look at what happened.  Sennheiser came out with the HD800, creating a huge hype cloud.  As the HD800 really was and is an awesome headphone, the hype cloud had legitimacy and it lingered for quite some time.  Of course, Sennheiser also had problems keeping up with orders as well as with QC issues stemming from the rush to ship so many units so quickly.  Grado release the PS1000 a season later.  It enjoyed its hype cloud as well, but it created a very different rift.  Where the GS1000 was eventually hated for being too un-Grado, the PS1000 would go on to be hated - largely by people who never owned it - for being too expensive.  The PS1000 was bought up by all the trust-fund babies, who made a big show of their membership in this PS1000 club, which created lots of anger based on class warfare.
 
A fair amount of that died down when Grado threw 'em a bone: the HF2.  Ironically, the HF2 is so truly a "baby PS1000" that if you swapped the cushions and vented the drivers, you'd have a tough time telling these headphones apart.  Anybody with a modicum of brains could have modded the HF2 and gotten a PS1000 - but almost nobody did.  Guess why?  Because they wanted to hold onto them and resell them as collectors' items.  Why bridge the gap between your $500 HF2 and the $1,700 PS1000 when you can leave it in the box, wait a few months, and make a couple of hundred dollars?
 
There must be a special hall in Hell for flippers.
 
I think the Grado-hating poseurs are as obnoxious as the Bambis who've never owned any headphone except their SR125.  A pox on both their houses.  
 
Grado had its PS1000 moment - partly screwed by setting the price of the headphone too high.  Then beyerdynamic came out with the T1 and the hype cloud shifted.
 
Then the orthodynamics wave hit the beach and drenched everybody else.  People are still talking about the LCD2 - and probably will be until next year, when something else gets the tongues wagging.  In a place like Headfi, where nerds and materialists come together, it should come as little shock when mean-girl catty talk that would normally be applied to high-school girls like Carrie is aimed at one another's brands and favorite headphones.  People who save up all their acid so they can run down somebody else's headphones are probably the same people who, as kids, ran around telling the other kids that Santa wasn't real.
 
We, of course, know that Santa is real.  He lives in Brooklyn.  He makes the coolest headphones on the planet.  We also know that Rudolph was gay, which is why the reindeers shunned him till he got a lawyer and fixed their wagon.  

 

[Bilavideo]

 

So wait... I would still like to see a frequency graph of the SR200 or HP1000. I can't really believe that Grado used to have good mids. That's exactly the opposite of what they're doing.
 
They charge $1000 for this:
 

 
and the GS1000i sounded exactly as it looks here.
They also charge $1700 for this:

 
Grado had the reputation of having good mids, then they decide to do the complete opposite? Doesn't make sense to me.

Let's not be overly simplistic.  
 

 
Here, the lowly SR60 saddles up for a ride against some serious competition - the HD800, the T1 and the Ed 8 - and takes its share of licks.  But if I were judging which of these headphones had the flattest mids, I'd give the cookie to the SR60.  It may not dig as deep as the others, but it works its way to flat faster and I'd rather listen to its slight bump above flat between 2 and 3 kHz than the various HF suckouts of its "betters."
 
If you look closely at the graphs for the GS1000 and the PS1000, those Grados also have fairly flat mids, except for the midbass hump, which is more prominent on the GS1000 than on the PS1000.  Even if one objects to the heavy midbass, and its influence on the mids, even the GS1000 ends up mids that are at least as flat as the other flagships, if not more so.