[LisaShayBrown]

total bs #8913249e47 from gregorio.

Musicians rarely produce their own music, unless they’re amateurs and/or can’t afford professionals.

tell that to (among god knows how many others):

1. pop
prince
paul mccartney
brian wilson
richard carpenter
taylor swift
beyoncé
pharrell williams
billie eilish
james blake
todd rundgren
beck
lorde
kevin parker
mogen heap
kate bush
trent teznor
björk
brian eno
jai paul
finneas
grimes


2. hip-hop/rap:
kanye west
j. cole
dr. dre
will smith
mf doom
tyler, the creator
wu-tang clan
a tribe called quest
russ

3. electronic/dance:
moby
aphex twin
flume
deadmau5
madeon
arca
four tet

4. r&b:
stevie wonder
d'angelo
frank ocean
solange
erykah badu

5. rock/alternative:
dave grohl
jack white
trent reznor
elliott smith
bon iver
grizzly bear

6. country/folk:
john prine
steve earle
sturgill simpson
jason isbell
lee "scratch" perry

7. jazz:
kamasi washington
esperanza spaulding

8. metal:
devin townsend
mikael akerfeldt

9. indie:
sufjan stevens
mac demarco
grimes

10. world:
fela kuti
manu chao
youssou d'nour
ravi shankar
caetano veloso

 

[Ryokan]

So called professionals have messed up many an album especially in the 'loudness war'. Which is why some artists have learned how to record, mix, and master not only their own but others music also.

'At first, engineers were cautious of the 0 dBFS ceiling in digital recording for CDs. Engineers starting using different techniques to make their records louder and more competitive than the other person’s. Digital plugins like the Waves L1 limiter, released in 1994, played a major role.
Today, the vast majority of music is consumed via streaming platforms. Loudness normalization varies by platform, but Apple Music, for instance sets their peak at -16 dBLUFS. They’ll just turn down any material coming in that’s louder than that.
The hopeful outcome of this is that mixing and mastering engineers will go back to focusing on dynamic range, depth, and interest as opposed to straight-up loudness.
Max McAllister. Mar 2023.

'It was following the recording and mixing of this album in 1996 that I decided to train to become a sound engineer myself. At the time it was difficult to find a Sound Engineer who had the same vision as we did for our music. I was undecided on which career path to take at the time and this experience helped me make my mind up'.
Greg Chandler. Priory Studios.

 

[bigshot]

The loudness wars are pretty much over now. It was a reaction to people putting mp3s on shuffle play. Streaming has different priorities.

 

[gregorio]

tell that to (among god knows how many others):

Firstly, your list is incorrect, I’ve worked with some of the artists you listed and they do not engineer/produce their own music. Secondly, that’s an extremely short list considering how many artists there have been. So well done yet again, you never fail to impress with the sheer amount and consistent BS you post!

At first, engineers were cautious of the 0 dBFS ceiling in digital recording for CDs.

Engineers always were and still always are cautious of the 0dBFS ceiling.

Engineers starting using different techniques to make their records louder and more competitive than the other person’s.

It wasn’t “their records”, it was the artists’/labels’ records and the engineers made the records louder because they were instructed to!

The hopeful outcome of this is that mixing and mastering engineers will go back to focusing on dynamic range, depth, and interest as opposed to straight-up loudness.

Engineers have been trying to do that for over 30 years! It was a hot topic amongst engineers back in 1992 when I was getting started, as they were getting sick of clients (artists/labels) requiring ever more compressed/limited mixes and masters. This was long before the term “loudness wars” had been coined and many years before consumers had ever heard of the issue.

So unfortunately, you’ve got your info backwards. The loudness wars was not due to the mix and mastering engineers, on the contrary, it was the engineers who first started to complain about it!

G

 

[Ryokan]

So no blame on anyone who has an engineering degree and fully understands digital theory. Or a professional engineer denouncing the practice of volume maximization, and instead of whistleblowing continues to play along?

Or how about someone very powerful in the music industry, who uses that power to make exhorbitant amounts of money, rather than educate?

 

[gregorio]

So no blame on anyone who has an engineering degree and fully understands digital theory.

The blame is on those who requested/required the engineers to over compress/limit recordings. It’s really not that hard to understand, just like in pretty much every other field, engineers built, fix or make what they’re employed to make, as instructed by their clients/employers.

Or a professional engineer denouncing the practice of volume maximization, and instead of whistleblowing continues to play along?

They make what they’re instructed to make otherwise clients will get someone else. How can we “whistleblow”, we’re often covered by NDAs and when we’re not we would still never talk about it because we’d never work again. And lastly, what do you think we could “whistleblow”, that a client wants a track/album more compressed/limited than we think appropriate? It’s hardly as if it’s a danger to the public!

Or how about someone very powerful in the music industry, who uses that power to make exhorbitant amounts of money, rather than educate?

Oh dear, name some industry which is not like that! And besides, engineers are not “very powerful in the music industry”, the major record labels are and a handful of the most major artists.

Again, if you don’t know, then ask, don’t just argue from a position of ignorance.

G

 

[Ryokan]

It’s really not that hard to understand, just like in pretty much every other field, engineers built, fix or make what they’re employed to make, as instructed by their clients/employers.

So they'd make a bridge knowing over a short time it would collapse?

They make what they’re instructed to make otherwise clients will get someone else. How can we “whistleblow”, we’re often covered by NDAs and when we’re not we would still never talk about it because we’d never work again. And lastly, what do you think we could “whistleblow”, that a client wants a track/album more compressed/limited than we think appropriate? It’s hardly as if it’s a danger to the public!

Maybe that's why the world is in so much trouble as integrity has become an alien concept.

Again, if you don’t know, then ask, don’t just argue from a position of ignorance.

If only there was someone here who not only knows 'their stuff' and doesn't cherry pick words from people's sentences and was polite and courteous, being the professional they are, and doesn't fall over themselves to ridicule someone, eh H? I mean G.

 

[bigshot]

You would do a lot better if you’d listen a little and not just doggedly defend your argument, even to the point of talking about things you really don’t know.

 

[castleofargh]

So no blame on anyone who has an engineering degree and fully understands digital theory. Or a professional engineer denouncing the practice of volume maximization, and instead of whistleblowing continues to play along?

Or how about someone very powerful in the music industry, who uses that power to make exhorbitant amounts of money, rather than educate?

They're, as you said, professionals. They have clients and work toward satisfying them and their demands. That is their job after all.

 

[gregorio]

So they'd make a bridge knowing over a short time it would collapse?

If you’re talking about music recordings, then it’s not up to an engineer to make a bridge, that’s the job of the composer and musicians. The engineers’ job is to record, mix and master the bridge according to the wishes of the clients.

Maybe that's why the world is in so much trouble as integrity has become an alien concept.

Integrity does indeed seem to be an alien concept, as you’re advocating breaking an NDA and/or betraying a client’s confidentiality!!

If only there was someone here who not only knows 'their stuff' and doesn't cherry pick words from people's sentences and was polite and courteous …

Blaming me and other engineers for something we’ve been fighting against since long before you ever heard of it, is neither polite nor courteous and you have no idea of “your stuff”!!! Pot, kettle, black!

G

 

[bigshot]

How do people get so invested in their beliefs to the point where they doggedly refuse to give an inch, even when someone with a great deal of knowledge and experience is pointing out an obvious error in their thinking? It really doesn't have anything to do with the subject. We can argue the facts until the cows come home and it won't help. I think certain subjects and people act as lightning rods to cognitive disorders, and the internet sweeps up the crazy and funnels it towards those subjects and people like a blast furnace. The problem is, the cognitive disorders take root and start pumping out reply after reply after reply, crapping up the threads and making it impossible to talk about anything deeper than the surface level. This is why peer reviewed journals have rigorous editing to weed out junk before it replicates and swamps the real conversation.

 

[castleofargh]

You guys are insiders. You're probably "in on it".

 

[bigshot]

If in doubt, it's a CONSPIRACY! We all fly around in UFOs and shake hands with secret Masonic handshakes!

 

[gregorio]

How do people get so invested in their beliefs to the point where they doggedly refuse to give an inch …

We’re all like that. Who here wouldn’t “doggedly refuse to give an inch” on say the earth being flat or 1+1=2? The only difference is that some/many audiophile beliefs are actually false and they stick to them doggedly because they’ve heard it from a number of different/independent sources which aren’t actually different or independent (group think and marketing).

G

 

[Ryokan]

Blaming me and other engineers for something we’ve been fighting against since long before you ever heard of it, is neither polite nor courteous and you have no idea of “your stuff”!!! Pot, kettle, black!

Which I've admitted on several occasions, especially with cables. The only 'stuff' I know is some gear sounds better with use, which others who know more than me say is impossible (so I'll try not to comment on 'burn-in' again in this thread) and that some artists of bands I listen to have become sound engineers - which isn't the norm and relatively unheard off with pop music.

crapping up the threads and making it impossible to talk about anything deeper than the surface level. This is why peer reviewed journals have rigorous editing to weed out junk before it replicates and swamps the real conversation.

If in doubt, it's a CONSPIRACY! We all fly around in UFOs and shake hands with secret Masonic handshakes!