[catscratch]

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Originally Posted by 3X0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks. I don't think the ER-4P has much of a boosted treble (compared to the ER-4S, anyway), but I see where you're coming from. I'm not surprised the UM3X has better transients -- IMHO the ER-4 is produces unnatural (consequently, poor) transients. It seems to have a very edgy attack for the leading edge of a note but then the decay is quickly exaggerated for the tail of the note (even though the decay itself is not quite as impressive). I'm not sure how to describe this but the notes have some kind of raindrop effect that is noticeable in a few tracks I have. This gives a false impression of enhanced speed.

You described it really well I think. I heard something very similar. Very crisp attack, but very short decay that made things dry and brittle, transparent on first glance but artificial in the long run. The UM3x is very much not like that - attack is crisp, but decay is nicely extended and transients are very well done. It sounds fluid and full, but still very detailed. Similar to electrostatics, but 'stats are even faster naturally.

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Would you say the UM3X is "faster" than the ER-4P? I am curious to know if it would ever blur and coalesce the notes together in fast-paced passages (i.e. speed metal) compared to the ER-4P, which I feel handles these passages oddly well because of its weird pseudo-speed.

Well I don't have the ER-4P on hand to compare anymore, though I could borrow my friend's I suppose. But the Ety did sound pretty fast from what I remember. There is a track, "Avalon" by the now defunct French progressive trance act Spectral, which really nicely evaluates speed, detail, and transients. It is one of the most insanely overproduced pieces of electronic music ever made (in a good way), every single sound has its own reverb and its own texture, as well as its own localized point in space, and the track is simply awash with spatial information and detail gone berserk. It's an incredibly complex, three-dimensional fractal sonic hologram when it's presented properly. The best I've ever heard this track was on the Omega 2, the UM3x, and the ER-4P.

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I must say I am not sure I agree with your last paragraph; I have put the ER-4P ahead of modern options like the TF10pro, SE530, and IE 8 in more than one dimension. A good portion of this liking is based on simple preference, but I feel there are still a few technical aspects where the ER-4P excels in compared to the decade-later competition. The single armature of the ER-4P is absolutely amazing considering it is without a doubt of significantly higher quality than the individual armature components in the multi-armature universals today.

I think the ACS T2 uses the ER-4P driver as a tweeter, but I'm not too sure about that. I do like the SE530 a lot but it's like the W3 in that it needs the exact right fit in order to shine. The steely highs, warm but plasticky mids and wooly bass - which is all I ever got out of it until I got a good fit finally - is not how it's supposed to sound. It actually sounds very much like an HD650 in an IEM, though faster but less refined. I do like it quite a bit more than the ER-4P, but it's likely that I never got a good fit with the ER-4P to begin with. The IE8 is dynamic and is a completely different animal.

 

[FYJX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3X0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The single armature of the ER-4P is absolutely amazing considering it is without a doubt of significantly higher quality than the individual armature components in the multi-armature universals today.

i'm not so sure i agree with that, Westone uses Knowles drivers, Klipsch uses Sonion drivers, while Shure and UE uses their own custom drivers. All being the finest drivers on the market today...

 

[charlie0904]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, you are on the right track, but I may shoot more modestly and get the JH5 Pro, and keep the UM3X too. To get those higher priced models, I'd need to sell the UM3X, and I don't want to do that. But the Studio is definitely in my future. So no UM56, since the Klipsch gels are sounding pretty good to me (back to them, again). I just want to make sure there is enough of a sound sig difference between the 3X and the 5 pro before I splurge. The 5 Pro was $599, but JH cut the price by $200 to compete with the UE4. Sounds like a very good deal.

my um3x w/um56 sounded pretty close to the JH5 demo i tried. JH5 demo sounded faster, better bass quantity and quality. full custom JH5 should make um3x shy.

but being that said I think since u have a um3x, getting a JH5 doesn't really justified the purchase. maybe should go higher if possible to make it more worthwhile IMO. JH10 demo onwards does an instant kill on um3x btw.

 

[3X0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif You described it really well I think. I heard something very similar. Very crisp attack, but very short decay that made things dry and brittle, transparent on first glance but artificial in the long run. The UM3x is very much not like that - attack is crisp, but decay is nicely extended and transients are very well done. It sounds fluid and full, but still very detailed. Similar to electrostatics, but 'stats are even faster naturally. Well I don't have the ER-4P on hand to compare anymore, though I could borrow my friend's I suppose. But the Ety did sound pretty fast from what I remember. There is a track, "Avalon" by the now defunct French progressive trance act Spectral, which really nicely evaluates speed, detail, and transients. It is one of the most insanely overproduced pieces of electronic music ever made (in a good way), every single sound has its own reverb and its own texture, as well as its own localized point in space, and the track is simply awash with spatial information and detail gone berserk. It's an incredibly complex, three-dimensional fractal sonic hologram when it's presented properly. The best I've ever heard this track was on the Omega 2, the UM3x, and the ER-4P. I think the ACS T2 uses the ER-4P driver as a tweeter, but I'm not too sure about that. I do like the SE530 a lot but it's like the W3 in that it needs the exact right fit in order to shine. The steely highs, warm but plasticky mids and wooly bass - which is all I ever got out of it until I got a good fit finally - is not how it's supposed to sound. It actually sounds very much like an HD650 in an IEM, though faster but less refined. I do like it quite a bit more than the ER-4P, but it's likely that I never got a good fit with the ER-4P to begin with. The IE8 is dynamic and is a completely different animal.

Very interesting.. thanks for the track example, I'll look into it for my own evaluation when (if) I get to try out the UM3X. If anything you may have just sold me on electrostatics instead.

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Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif i'm not so sure i agree with that, Westone uses Knowles drivers, Klipsch uses Sonion drivers, while Shure and UE uses their own custom drivers. All being the finest drivers on the market today...

I know the Knowles drivers, for example, are under $50 per armature (or in some cases, a combination unit of two armatures as in the TWFK). I'd place the value of the ER-4's single wide-range driver quite a bit beyond that $50. I'm not saying the whole multi-armature product is worse, as the net of having three cheaper, lower-quality drivers and a crossover is still worth more than the value of a single high-quality one, and produces different sound. I'm not dissing the armature sources or calling any of them bad, I'm just saying each piece used isn't as good as the ER-4 piece. Hell, I don't even think two individual units (i.e. two armature drivers in all, as in dual-driver IEMs) aren't worth as much as the ER-4's armature. But this is just conjecture.

 

[FYJX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3X0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know the Knowles drivers, for example, are under $50 per armature (or in some cases, a combination unit of two armatures as in the TWFK). I'd place the value of the ER-4's single wide-range driver quite a bit beyond that $50. I'm not saying the whole multi-armature product is worse, as the net of having three cheaper, lower-quality drivers and a crossover is still worth more than the value of a single high-quality one, and produces different sound. I'm not dissing the armature sources or calling any of them bad, I'm just saying each piece used isn't as good as the ER-4 piece. Hell, I don't even think two individual units (i.e. two armature drivers in all, as in dual-driver IEMs) aren't worth as much as the ER-4's armature. But this is just conjecture.

I would like to ask how would you the quality of the driver in the ER4? is it because it sounds good? because quality can be purely based on that. My PS200 use the micro TWFK and i think it's a earphone that's fairly on par with the Westone UM3X and Se530's out there, but witha different sound signature. I don't think the driver is higher quality, but rather it's tuned very well.

 

[3X0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like to ask how would you the quality of the driver in the ER4? is it because it sounds good? because quality can be purely based on that. My PS200 use the micro TWFK and i think it's a earphone that's fairly on par with the Westone UM3X and Se530's out there, but witha different sound signature. I don't think the driver is higher quality, but rather it's tuned very well.

I don't know, it's entirely conjecture. Probably based on the ER-4 being "better" than dual-drivers, and on its being a product with a nebulous source (it's not a Knowles or Sonion, so we don't know the actual value).

 

[antonyfirst]

Cat,

Congrats on the UM3X and obviously dark belgian beers.

Just curious: do you like your newly fitted UM3X as much as the ES2? And do they approach the SR-001 with modded amp, now that you put long complys into the Westone?

Cheers

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by antonyfirst /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cat, Congrats on the UM3X and obviously dark belgian beers. Just curious: do you like your newly fitted UM3X as much as the ES2? And do they approach the SR-001 with modded amp, now that you put long complys into the Westone? Cheers

The ES2 is busted so I can't compare at the moment. In that comparison it would be hard to tell. The ES2 does some things better and the UM3x does other things better. The ES2 is better balanced and more refined. It's also more forward and dynamic. The UM3x is more detailed though and may have the edge in midrange realism, and definitely has sharper imaging. Still they're very close and there's really not much point in getting the ES2 anymore IMO, not with the ES3x being not far off in price and UM3x undercutting the price/performance ratio. The ES2 was noticeably better than the W3 but so is the UM3x IMO.

The SR-001 modded is a different animal entirely and no, the UM3x is not as technically capable or as musically involving. The 001 just has more air, clarity, larger soundstage, is faster, etc. The stock 001 is also better when it's fitting properly (especially in the bass) though the margin is closer. I think the UM3x outdoes the stock 001 nicely when the 001 is not fitting well. The UM3x has a somewhat similar presentation to the 001 to begin with especially when it comes to tone, is also very detailed, and it has the added benefit of isolation, portability and comfort at least with the long comply tips. So I'm using the UM3x on the move exclusively right now.

Stax needs to update the 001 big time. It's still the best sounding portable you can get without seeing a doctor but the margin is getting narrower, and canalphones don't have the practicality issues to deal with. The 001 needs to be head and shoulders above the rest sonically, as it was before the W3/UM3x, in order to compete. It's still better, but by not as much. The modded units are another story though. They can be sickeningly good though it depends on the individual mod. I think your unit is the best sounding I've come across, incidentally.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif The ES2 is busted so I can't compare at the moment. In that comparison it would be hard to tell. The ES2 does some things better and the UM3x does other things better. The ES2 is better balanced and more refined. It's also more forward and dynamic. The UM3x is more detailed though and may have the edge in midrange realism, and definitely has sharper imaging. Still they're very close and there's really not much point in getting the ES2 anymore IMO, not with the ES3x being not far off in price and UM3x undercutting the price/performance ratio. The ES2 was noticeably better than the W3 but so is the UM3x IMO. The SR-001 modded is a different animal entirely and no, the UM3x is not as technically capable or as musically involving. The 001 just has more air, clarity, larger soundstage, is faster, etc. The stock 001 is also better when it's fitting properly (especially in the bass) though the margin is closer. I think the UM3x outdoes the stock 001 nicely when the 001 is not fitting well. The UM3x has a somewhat similar presentation to the 001 to begin with especially when it comes to tone, is also very detailed, and it has the added benefit of isolation, portability and comfort at least with the long comply tips. So I'm using the UM3x on the move exclusively right now. Stax needs to update the 001 big time. It's still the best sounding portable you can get without seeing a doctor but the margin is getting narrower, and canalphones don't have the practicality issues to deal with. The 001 needs to be head and shoulders above the rest sonically, as it was before the W3/UM3x, in order to compete. It's still better, but by not as much. The modded units are another story though. They can be sickeningly good though it depends on the individual mod. I think your unit is the best sounding I've come across, incidentally.

My Audiocats (Super Fat Cat ++) modded SR-001 is surprisingly good, but I'd pick the UM3X over a stock SR-001 Mk2. The only problem is the SFC++ size after going to an external battery pack, since the stock battery compartment is filled with big caps now. So I don't use it portable much.

 

[Stevtt]

Thanks for all the good info folks.

Spent most of my evening reading this thread, finally got about halfway through, got tired of reading and went ahead and bought them. I was actually moving my way up through the Shure line and decided to switch gears. Being a Grado fan, I'm hoping I moved in the right direction

 

[tstarn06]

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Originally Posted by charlie0904 /img/forum/go_quote.gif my um3x w/um56 sounded pretty close to the JH5 demo i tried. JH5 demo sounded faster, better bass quantity and quality. full custom JH5 should make um3x shy. but being that said I think since u have a um3x, getting a JH5 doesn't really justified the purchase. maybe should go higher if possible to make it more worthwhile IMO. JH10 demo onwards does an instant kill on um3x btw.

Gives me something to ponder. Just not sure I want to get into that spending ozone. May just get the UM56 and leave it at that. Thanks, though. Seems going to the JH5 is not really a smart move, unless I sell off the UM3X and go higher on the JH food chain.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Gives me something to ponder. Just not sure I want to get into that spending ozone. May just get the UM56 and leave it at that. Thanks, though. Seems going to the JH5 is not really a smart move, unless I sell off the UM3X and go higher on the JH food chain.

BUY THE FREAKING UM56 ALREADY!

There, that felt better.

 

[talisman42]

I'm still working on fit with the UM56, but the improvement in SQ is noticeable with W3. I like it.

My concern is that even with the fit and good seal, I would hear the sound of the UM56 material sticking/unsticking to skin as my mouth moves. The seal is maintained, though. Is this a normal? Anyway, the UM56 goes a little too deep becomes irritated. Also, I am not convinced yet if the UM56 would ever be as comfortable and convenient as shure olives. For a little over $100, you can get 50 pairs of olives! lol

If you go through 5 pairs a year, that's 10 years worth of supplies.

 

[lhamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif BUY THE FREAKING UM56 ALREADY! There, that felt better.

+1!!!!

 

[derek8555]

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Originally Posted by Stevtt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for all the good info folks. Spent most of my evening reading this thread, finally got about halfway through, got tired of reading and went ahead and bought them. I was actually moving my way up through the Shure line and decided to switch gears.

Yeah it is tough to read through all the posts but you did well!! Congrats on your UM3X ownership!

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Being a Grado fan, I'm hoping I moved in the right direction

I really hope too. They just sound way different to me. But if you love midrange as much as I do these will be for you!

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Originally Posted by talisman42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyway, the UM56 goes a little too deep becomes irritated. Also, I am not convinced yet if the UM56 would ever be as comfortable and convenient as shure olives. For a little over $100, you can get 50 pairs of olives! lol If you go through 5 pairs a year, that's 10 years worth of supplies.

Exactly my thoughts... My limited experience with custom tips/earphones tells me that they might not be as comfortable. I can always feel them in my ears, whereas for the olives I tend to forget about them after awhile.

But the for sake of SQ......