[111MilesToGo]

With that DAP acting as your DAC, I think you need to take everything you have heard from the V281 with a big grain of salt, because the DAC is every bit as important as the amp, in determining how that Amp sounds. My V281 is fed by a Schiit Yggdrasil A2, and I am betting you would be surprised at how the sound of your V281 would be transformed, if you were to feed it with a Yggdrasil instead...

Which is why I wouldn't go doing an helter-skelter buying and tinkering with other Amps too quickly, Tubes/or SS, if I were you, until I have determined what the V281 can really give you with a more appropriate DAC, that can bring out its best performance... A good DAC is a must, because without one, every other Amp (and there are indeed great ones out there) you try out might also underperform, and you might come off with the same "something is missing" feeling you're having right now, regardless of how great the amp might be on its own... That sounds to me like a rather inefficient and ultimately pricey way to experiment your way to audio-nirvana, even if you're blessed with unlimited supplies of funds. A more patient, and carefully calibrated path of experimentation would certainly be in order here... Bear in mind that no matter how great an amp, or headphone, or any single component might be in its own right, what counts in the end, and trumps everything else is *system synergy.* Without "system synergy" you would be selling each component short, and you might wind up blaming your dissatisfactions on component after component, accusing each of sins they have probably not committed.... Sadly, this happens on head-fi all the time....

So please proceed with patience and caution, and do not rush to judgment about any component, until you're sure you've deployed it in the chain of components that are apt to make it perform at its best. My humble two cents.

+1

My post above says that I love the V281 + HD 800S for musicality and technical achievements. Nothing (almost nothing) to be missed if - sic! - the source is up to it.

 

[jerick70]

I have the v281 for a few days, so I'm new to it. My impressions so far are that it is amazingly good technically - separation, clarity, soundstage, dynamics, detail, you name it... I've never heard music sound so real. It's like every sound is physically there. And there are a lot more positive things to be said here.

However, sometimes I feel like something is missing and I think that is emotional impact and engagement. I don't get goosebumps as often as I would expect and often I feel the emotional impact is somewhat missing. The thing is I don't have experience with other amps in this class. I still have the Teac HA-501, which is a great amp. Back then I preferred it to the v200 and on top of it it was cheaper.

So, do you have similar experience with the v281? Also, can you point me to similarly priced amp which offers more engagement? Maybe I'll have to go to tube amps... Woo audio WA22? I have never heard tube amp, so no idea how different it can be from solid state. Or maybe I just expect too much from audio as a whole

I'm using HD800S balanced.

And don't get me wrong, I love the v281's sound and it will be really hard for me to decide to return it. It brought my audio setup to a whole new level and I think it will not be easy to find another amp with such superior characteristics. I'm just wondering if there are better options in terms of engagement. Maybe in some cases sacrificing technical superiority for more engagement is a good trade-off. Also, it definitely gets better and better with time. Probably I'm adjusting to the new sound and/or it's the amp's burning in.

I didn't think the V281 lacked engagement. It could be the synergy with the transport your using.

If you're going to go to tube amps, look at Elekit gear. I prefer it over Woo. Though the WA5 was amazing i think the Elekit TU-8600 is better. I thought the Woo WA22 was only so so. The TU-8200DX / TU-8500 combo trumps it in every way.

 

[13713]

I completely missed you were using a DAP as your DAC. I would look into a dedicated DAC you already mentioned the V850 and I will shill out that my stack since purchase a few years ago has been the V281, V850, PPA V600 all those feed into HD800 (The original non modded) and the only change to that entire thing is a Forza cable. I have had zero reason to change my setup as it is brilliant. I will say this though there is something magical and special about tubes but honestly at the end of the day source is 100% the most important part of the entire chain.

 

[NDonchev]

First of all, I want to say that the feeling that something is missing is quicky fading and instead I feel happier and happier with the v281. Maybe in some cases it takes some time to adjust and appreciate the sound from new gear. It seems I will not be looking for amp change anytime soon. At the same time I'm tempted to attend CanJam London 2019 in July to try more gear. Bad thing is it will be a little late as probably I'll finish building my system by bying a DAC in a month. Probably the v850.

I see most of you point to the DAP I'm using being a significan weak point in my system. However, I'm a bit sceptical about how much a better DAC will make a hearable difference in the sound. For example, I did blind tests with a friend assisting between the Fiio X3 II and my Galaxy S6 phone on the Audio Technica MSR7 headphones. To my surprise, on a blind test neigher of us could distingush between the two despite reading on the reviews that the Fiio is a significant improvement compared to a phone. Well, it is significant improvement over my old laptop's audio. However, later I compared the two with the Teac HA-501 and HD800S and with this gear I think there is obvious difference in sound, although this was not a blind test. On top of that there are always some people on the Internet saying there is no difference between a good cheap DAC aka Fiio X3 II and a better and significantly pricier one.

Even more - @Arniesb says a few posts back that the Fiio DAP is a joke for the HD800S and pointed me to the Qutest DAC. I went to read some info about the Qutest and found the Z-Reviews video about it in which he says he couldn't distinguish between the Qutest and a 200$ DAC in AB tests. I express these concerns further in the v850 thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vio...pressions-thread.761936/page-30#post-14863675
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vio...pressions-thread.761936/page-31#post-14865036

Despite all of this, I still hope you guys are right and with such top level system (v281 and HD800S) a better dedicated DAC will make a difference. Probably when I buy a new DAC I will blind test it agains the Fiio and see. Even better will be if the difference is obvious and there is no need for blind testing. Such is the case with the upgrade from Fiio X3 II as a DAC/amp to Teac HA-501 and from Teac HA-501 to v281. Just a few seconds are enough to be sure there is a big difference.

As for tube amps, probably the idea for getting a world-class one will stay with me and I will do it at some later point, but no rush to do it now. As I said already, I'm getting more and more satisfied with the v281. Actually the idea of getting a v281 was coming back to me over and over again since the first time I heard it and was very impressed by it about a year ago. So, it's a big think finally having it at home

 

[lithiumnk]

First of all, I want to say that the feeling that something is missing is quicky fading and instead I feel happier and happier with the v281. Maybe in some cases it takes some time to adjust and appreciate the sound from new gear. It seems I will not be looking for amp change anytime soon. At the same time I'm tempted to attend CanJam London 2019 in July to try more gear. Bad thing is it will be a little late as probably I'll finish building my system by bying a DAC in a month. Probably the v850.

I see most of you point to the DAP I'm using being a significan weak point in my system. However, I'm a bit sceptical about how much a better DAC will make a hearable difference in the sound. For example, I did blind tests with a friend assisting between the Fiio X3 II and my Galaxy S6 phone on the Audio Technica MSR7 headphones. To my surprise, on a blind test neigher of us could distingush between the two despite reading on the reviews that the Fiio is a significant improvement compared to a phone. Well, it is significant improvement over my old laptop's audio. However, later I compared the two with the Teac HA-501 and HD800S and with this gear I think there is obvious difference in sound, although this was not a blind test. On top of that there are always some people on the Internet saying there is no difference between a good cheap DAC aka Fiio X3 II and a better and significantly pricier one.

Even more - @Arniesb says a few posts back that the Fiio DAP is a joke for the HD800S and pointed me to the Qutest DAC. I went to read some info about the Qutest and found the Z-Reviews video about it in which he says he couldn't distinguish between the Qutest and a 200$ DAC in AB tests. I express these concerns further in the v850 thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vio...pressions-thread.761936/page-30#post-14863675
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vio...pressions-thread.761936/page-31#post-14865036

Despite all of this, I still hope you guys are right and with such top level system (v281 and HD800S) a better dedicated DAC will make a difference. Probably when I buy a new DAC I will blind test it agains the Fiio and see. Even better will be if the difference is obvious and there is no need for blind testing. Such is the case with the upgrade from Fiio X3 II as a DAC/amp to Teac HA-501 and from Teac HA-501 to v281. Just a few seconds are enough to be sure there is a big difference.

As for tube amps, probably the idea for getting a world-class one will stay with me and I will do it at some later point, but no rush to do it now. As I said already, I'm getting more and more satisfied with the v281. Actually the idea of getting a v281 was coming back to me over and over again since the first time I heard it and was very impressed by it about a year ago. So, it's a big think finally having it at home

Borrow/home audition a desktop DAC...try it yourself... HD800S & V281 deserve a better DAC.... also always run v281 in balanced to get the most of it. I have tried v281 with hugo2, Dave, HMSDave, Metrum Acoustics Pavane L3 ...the upgrade in SQ is easily audible....
Cheers

 

[Fegefeuer]

I tried a lot of DACs with the V281, ranging from the Asus Xonar Essence Muses over the Anedio D2, Modi Multibit, RS06 to the Gungnir A2 while having loaned or listened to quite a few others. The better the DAC the more it supercharged the V281 or let's say: let it it shine for what it was designed. An amp of this class simply requires a great DAC.
However there is nothing wrong with starting "low" and saving up for a better DAC. Just don't sidegrade or take too long to upgrade while making losses like I did.

Take your time, appreciate what you have right now. it will get even better. The V281 made me hunt for the "oldies" again instead of buying those kilobuck headphones. HE-500 for instance never sounded so magnificient before and is still a very unique untouchable headphone with its signature and strengths. And it came pretty cheap (all my used headphones did). Plenty of good headphones of the used market because some people still run for the latest and supposedly greatest.

 

[Anaz]

I tried a lot of DACs with the V281, ranging from the Asus Xonar Essence Muses over the Anedio D2, Modi Multibit, RS06 to the Gungnir A2 while having loaned or listened to quite a few others. The better the DAC the more it supercharged the V281 or let's say: let it it shine for what it was designed. An amp of this class simply requires a great DAC.
However there is nothing wrong with starting "low" and saving up for a better DAC. Just don't sidegrade or take too long to upgrade while making losses like I did.
...

+1

 

[NDonchev]

Thanks for all the answers. It's being very helpful.

I would definitely look into headphones in the future, but for now I think the focus should be to complete my current system.

So, based on your experience which DAC would you recommend for the v281? Is the RS 06 / v850 a really good option? What about the Gungnir or the Matrix Sabre-X Pro?

 

[111MilesToGo]

Thanks for all the answers. It's being very helpful.

I would definitely look into headphones in the future, but for now I think the focus should be to complete my current system.

So, based on your experience which DAC would you recommend for the v281? Is the RS 06 / v850 a really good option? What about the Gungnir or the Matrix Sabre-X Pro?

Guess it‘s the other way round, not DAC for V281, but one should start with selecting a DAC, since the V281 is most versatile and has the most prowess. My experience is that combining the right DAC and headphone is most important; the V281 fits in easily.

So, with HD 800s, I can strongly recommend the Hugo 2, if budget permits (cf. the dedicated thread here). I have no recommendation at lower budget. I auditioned the Mojo, too, but knowing myself I went for the big guy immediately. With respect to your remark above on comparing various DAPs and DACs, I must say the difference between Mojo and Hugo 2 can easily by heard on appropriate headphones. Side remark: Myself, I started the whole venture with an AudioQuest DragonFly Red, but merely as a little playground to get acquainted with the various computer operating systems (esp. Linux) and audio applications.

On adding an internal DAC to the V281: I guess everybody will admit these are not the best solutions. They seem to be inferior to the V281 as an amp. So, I recommend to go for an external DAC.

 

[Anaz]

Thanks for all the answers. It's being very helpful.

I would definitely look into headphones in the future, but for now I think the focus should be to complete my current system.

So, based on your experience which DAC would you recommend for the v281? Is the RS 06 / v850 a really good option? What about the Gungnir or the Matrix Sabre-X Pro?

ADI-2 DAC or Chord Qutest

 

[Pharmaboy]

Thanks for all the answers. It's being very helpful.

I would definitely look into headphones in the future, but for now I think the focus should be to complete my current system.

So, based on your experience which DAC would you recommend for the v281? Is the RS 06 / v850 a really good option? What about the Gungnir or the Matrix Sabre-X Pro?

You have a wide array of choices for an external DAC. You can spend anything from ~$100 USD to $10,000 USD. The goal is usually to get a really good DAC for your system that doesn't bankrupt you.

The 1st big choice is:

• The types of music files you listen to:
  1. If you don't use DSD files or plan to in future, DACs that lack this feature, or only permit it via PCM, become possible for you (my favorite DACs are in this group, for what it's worth)
  2. Similarly, if you don't use MQA files, DACs that lack this feature (most of them) become possible
• The sound you prefer: do you value accuracy & detail above all else? Highest of the highs, lowest of the lows, etc? Or do you favor a more musical, organic, life-size sound (sounding like a real symphony orchestra)?

The 2nd big choice IMO will be type of digital design selected:

• Delta-sigma digital (most DACs are d-s). Many of those allow high-speed DSD; a few also allow MQA decoding. Most have a number of filters for limited sonic shaping. Some of these DACs sound amazing, but IMHO, some sound bad. Typical sins of poorly/inexpensively implemented delta-sigma designs are brightness, edginess, "thin" note bodies, lacking tonal/timbral realism.
• Multibit digital (my preference): These DACs are a little harder to find but IMO it's worth the trouble, since in many cases the sound is more lifelike, real, and less edgy. But multibit can also sound bad if it's done cheaply/not rigorously.
  • The ultimate form of multibit is NOS (non oversampling multibit)--my favorite.

You can rather easily find "combination" units (DAC+headphone amp, w/ or w/o preamp outputs)--these can be used as system DACs, but allow use of headphones should you eventually need that. Many also allow preamp use, which can be very convenient.

You have a lot of choices.

 

[lithiumnk]

You have a wide array of choices for an external DAC. You can spend anything from ~$100 USD to $10,000 USD. The goal is usually to get a really good DAC for your system that doesn't bankrupt you.

The 1st big choice is:

• The types of music files you listen to:
  1. If you don't use DSD files or plan to in future, DACs that lack this feature, or only permit it via PCM, become possible for you (my favorite DACs are in this group, for what it's worth)
  2. Similarly, if you don't use MQA files, DACs that lack this feature (most of them) become possible
• The sound you prefer: do you value accuracy & detail above all else? Highest of the highs, lowest of the lows, etc? Or do you favor a more musical, organic, life-size sound (sounding like a real symphony orchestra)?

The 2nd big choice IMO will be type of digital design selected:

• Delta-sigma digital (most DACs are d-s). Many of those allow high-speed DSD; a few also allow MQA decoding. Most have a number of filters for limited sonic shaping. Some of these DACs sound amazing, but IMHO, some sound bad. Typical sins of poorly/inexpensively implemented delta-sigma designs are brightness, edginess, "thin" note bodies, lacking tonal/timbral realism.
• Multibit digital (my preference): These DACs are a little harder to find but IMO it's worth the trouble, since in many cases the sound is more lifelike, real, and less edgy. But multibit can also sound bad if it's done cheaply/not rigorously.
  • The ultimate form of multibit is NOS (non oversampling multibit)--my favorite.

You can rather easily find "combination" units (DAC+headphone amp, w/ or w/o preamp outputs)--these can be used as system DACs, but allow use of headphones should you eventually need that. Many also allow preamp use, which can be very convenient.

You have a lot of choices.

I agree with you.
I had hugo2 & v281. I was happy with my setup(chord fanboy) then I listened(home auditioned) to Metrum Acoustics Onyx R2R NOS DAC for 3 weeks... I was shocked...I couldn't believe my ears.... the tonality, instrument timbre, rich & natural vocals just blew me away....the resolution was top notch...trebles had more coherency & articulation..they were never harsh, edgy or sibilant (not rolloff)... then compared pavane level 3 & hmsdave...I was surprised by the results... sold my hugo2 & few other gears..took some loan.. got Pavane (level 3)....THE END!

 

[NDonchev]

Thanks for the suggestions and the summary of the DAC options.

Thing is, the choice gets harder and harder the more I read. I think the main problem is I don't have the opportunity to try a variety of different DACs. I might have the option to try only Chord Mojo and V800 locally.

On top of that, for every positive opinion about a DAC I find equally negative one. For example, I might save some more money and probably buy Schiit Yggdrasil on the multibit side, although that's a big stretch for my budget. As you probably know a lot of people say it's one of the best DACs. At the same time measurements of the DAC are showing poor performance and also some people say it doesn't sound so good. Is the Schiit Yggdrasil NOS? As I'm writing this a new very positive impression was posted by @lithiumnk - the Metrum Acoustics Onyx R2R NOS DAC. Never heard of it, maybe it's also a good choice.

Top sound quality is my top priority so I could sacrifice some extras like DSD support.

As for the type of sound as I started this journey I was all for the analytical and detailed sound. However, with time my preferences seem to shift towards engaging, musical sound. I don't think anymore that absolute accuracy is the most important thing. Currently, I think emotional enjoyment is more important than intellectual one, at least when listening to music. Anyway, a combination between the two is probably best.

 

[jerick70]

@NDonchev I've tried quite a few DACs with the V281. In my experience the V281 is very dependent on synergy. Here are the DACs I've tried....

1) Matrix X Sabre Pro - Meh. Great DAC but not with the V281. It's good to fantastic with all of my other Preamps and amps.
2) Audio GD R-28 - Two thumbs up!!! This is a great pairing.
3) iFi iDSD Micro Black Label - Another two thumbs up!!! This DAC continues to amaze me. For $350 it was a steal. This is the best budget DAC that I've tried with the V281.
4) MHDT Lab Atlantis - Meh, Meh, and more Meh. This does not pair well with the V281 at all. Skip it for the V281 but good to outstanding with other pres and headphone amps.
5) Violectric XMOS addon DAC - This DAC is made for the V281. I thought the pairing was excellent. The use is limited in this day and age though.
6) RME ADI-2 Pro - Another two thumbs up!!!! Very good pairing and has endless features including EQing that actually works.

 

[Pharmaboy]

Honestly, the thing to do when swamped by DAC confusion is simple: read everything you can find about DACs. Read about high-level delta-sigmas, multibits, and NOS multibits. Read a lot of user/listener impressions. Sure, they're all over the place & contradictory. But eventually you start to triangulate the truth (apparent truth) from all this stuff.

Schiit Yggdrasil is a top-of-the-line multibit (not true NOS, I don't think). Many here love the sound. Some describe it as slightly bright & dry (the Schiit "house sound"). But there's little doubt it's an endgame, non-delta-sigma design of high level implementation.

Metrum Acoustics Onyx is a high-level, well-regarded NOS design. It uses FPGA (field programmable gate array) programming to refine the output of the resistor ladder, a technique I'm curious about (ie, it's NOS, but manages to have some sound shaping post-conversion). My next DAC will likely be of this type.

These 2 DACs are equivalent in price & features. Both have a single RCA output & single balanced output. Useful if (like me) you would use both outputs simultaneously (balanced out to Violectric V281 for headphone+system preamp. It's not clear to me whether you could even use a balanced DAC...that depend on the input design/configuration of the device you send the DAC's output to.

I do have on odd-ball suggestion. Rather than try to assess sonic value of these high-level/cost DACs (big commitment financially), why not experiment by purchasing (for example) an inexpensive NOS DAC that many here say nice things about? I'm talking about the Audio GD R2R 11 (link below). Besides the fact it has a very useful headphone amp & separate preamp capabilities (which can be useful in their own rights)--it is the absolute cheapest NOS DAC about which people say nice things.

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm

This would cost ~$400 including shipping...not sure if that is also true for Bulgaria.

Why suggest such a thing? Because you'd get to hear NOS digital--not top-of-the-line/best available, but NOS that many people praise for natural, organic sound quality--for very little money. And if you didn't like it, you could sell and get back most of your $$.

The other tactic, if you know other audio types, is try to borrow a DAC to audition (not easy).