[Xenophon]

Still torn between the two.... Leaning towards Taurus MK2 but never know

I had the opportunity to audition the Taurus Mk2 yesterday, though only briefly and with my HE-6 on SE, never listened to the new Violectrics and can only compare with my V200.  
 
Can imagine you being torn because beyond a doubt, quality of both brands is really good.  I'd have to listen a lot longer to be sure but with the HE-6 I think I might have a slight preference for the Taurus 2 vs the V200, it sounds a bit more neutral and airy to me.  But this was only after a brief audition and using SE only, I'm not sure if the Taurus would have the juice in balanced setups to drive the 6 well (power output in balanced/50 Ohm is a lot lower than in SE).  If all other things were equal between the Taurus and the new Vios then I guess lovers of more heft and slamming bass might go with the Vios.  This fwiw after a very brief audition, most of which was spent while the unit was warming up (it really makes a difference with the sound) .Curious to read other impressions.

 

[BeyerMonster]

Could you provide some info on the second optional motorized potentiometer ("128-step relay attenuator with 0.75 dB per step together with remote input/output control") and its advantages?
Is this also an ALPS potentiometer?

A stepped relay attenuator is not a potentiometer at all. It's a purpose built device with discrete settings. Think of a potentiometer as being an continuously analog volume control and a stepped attenuator as a stepped digital volume control. If price was no object, I'd have something like a Placette as the volume control for everything I own.
 
For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
http://www.goldpt.com/compare.html
http://www.dact.com/html/attenuators.html

 

[Jodet]

  So just another quick update, I opened it up again because there was a rattling sound whenever the amp was set down/touched, and turns out it was missing 3 screws to hold down the top amp, and was just being held on by two out of five screws. So the entire top amp board was rattling. I sent an email to Arthur already, and am waiting reply (depending on of he checks during weekends or not). So quality control on these first few runs is a bit off, esp taking into account how the ribbon cable to the top amp was also not connected when I got it, makes me think if it instead of it coming loose during shipment, it was just never attached in the first place, just like the 3 other screws were not (theres no way it is supposed to be missing 3 major screws like this). So fair warning for those buying these first few runs, make sure you check to see if everything is all good inside. On the upside all the soldering looks really good, some pieces being slightly off-center as a result of being nicely handmade.
 
I'll update when I get this all solved.
 
Edit- Arthur got back to me VERY quickly, greatly appreciated, he said to ship the amp back to him, and he will talk to Fried about all this. I am actually really impressed by the great customer support Violectric is showing me. I love the sound, the amp, and the people working there, hopefully this was just an isolated incident due to one of the workers rushing things (thats what it seems like honestly) and all will be sorted out soon. Don't let what happened to my amp dissuade anyone from pulling the trigger on one of these, because despite everything I can't think of an amp I'd rather have for the same money.

 
Apparently Violectric thinks its U.S. customers should be unpaid beta testors.   
 
I expect this from cheap Chinese gear, but an expensive German product built this poorly?    VERY DISCOURAGING.  

 

[roskodan]

edit: ops i didn't see the new post, so i retracted the previous one i wrote thinking it was only about the volume knob screw and cable, still i'm including the previous comment in the spoiler cos i think that violectric does not really merit such attacks like the one @Jodet made, just my opinion, i understand and respect even such attacks cos the units are clearly not cheap! but a broader view of the possible causes should be considered, cheers
 

Spoiler: Warning: integral unedite previous post

Quote: previous post

  big -1 to you  @ jodet,
 
your comment is out of proportion, it's not like the units were faulty or malfunctioned or broke, there was a loose screw and a disconnected cable, i had much worse experiences with highly regarded products (made in USA) with years if not decades already in production, but never would dare to make such aggressive and bold statements like your is,
 
and it's clearly that you didn't even think about understanding what the issue described in the posts above are about, don't really see why you bothered commenting if the users that reported the issues didn't blame violectric at all and they paid for the units while i highly doubt you have the new units or ever experienced any problem with your violectric gear, am i wrong?
 
and the screw and cable may have been loosen while handled by third party, customs officials, delivery companies etc.
 
so please before making such ATTACKS without any reason but to demonstrate your narrow thinking (and perhaps some other personal issues, obviously not related to this thread, you may have), try to understand, why, how and what kind of remarks you are making
 
kind regards

 
p.s. also i wonder if violectric is shipping partially assembled units to the usa distributor, so they can be made to be v220 or v281 as per necessity/demand?

 

[saxelrod92]

One more quick update, Fried answered Arthur (while on vacation I might add), and said before they left there was a unit being finished up, and he figures this was mine, and the worker overlooked this last step in the assembly process, which involves attaching the top amp board. As of now my unit should technically be the only one like this. it's basically a series of unlucky events that took place over there. either way I would not attack Violectric for this as they have been more than amazing at responding to this issue and making things right for me.

 

[Byrnie]

  One more quick update, Fried answered Arthur (while on vacation I might add), and said before they left there was a unit being finished up, and he figures this was mine, and the worker overlooked this last step in the assembly process, which involves attaching the top amp board. As of now my unit should technically be the only one like this. it's basically a series of unlucky events that took place over there. either way I would not attack Violectric for this as they have been more than amazing at responding to this issue and making things right for me.

That's great to hear that they're quickly turning around this error.

 

[Zkadoush]

  A stepped relay attenuator is not a potentiometer at all. It's a purpose built device with discrete settings. Think of a potentiometer as being an continuously analog volume control and a stepped attenuator as a stepped digital volume control. If price was no object, I'd have something like a Placette as the volume control for everything I own.
 
For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
http://www.goldpt.com/compare.html
http://www.dact.com/html/attenuators.html

Thanks for that correction, BeyerMonster.

Cheers!

 

[Zkadoush]

   
 
Indeed I will. So far both amps are extremely enjoyable, handling everything I throw at them with ease. Still need to figure out the exact character of V281 and how it differs from the Taurus.
 
So far I'm convinced there's no wrong choice between the two.

 
Hi project86,

Speaking of comparative refrences, I was wondering if you would maintain the roughly same difference in sound characteristics you describe between the V200 and the CMA800R (Full bodied bass, grunt and more gusto vs more detail, tonal accuracy, wider soundstage and better imaging), while comparing the V281/V220 and the CMA800R?
Does the V220/V281 allow for listening with IEMs, or do they have an audible noise floor?

Cheers

 

[saxelrod92]

   
Hi project86,

Speaking of comparative refrences, I was wondering if you would maintain the roughly same difference in sound characteristics you describe between the V200 and the CMA800R (Full bodied bass, grunt and more gusto vs more detail, tonal accuracy, wider soundstage and better imaging), while comparing the V281/V220 and the CMA800R?
Does the V220/V281 allow for listening with IEMs, or do they have an audible noise floor?

Cheers

I can help answer your question about noisefloor. I tried my V281 with my denon d5000, which are at 25ohms, and turned the volume all the way up, and honestly there is not a sound that can be heard. like if you wanted to nitpick at full volume you can hear that it no longer is perfectly dead silent, but I'm talking like so little noise that you can barely hear it when everything is dead quiet. and thats only on the last notch of volume, literally any other volume placement is absolute dead silence, I had to check to make sure everything was plugged in still and on lol. Totally black background.

 

[Zkadoush]

 
I can help answer your question about noisefloor. I tried my V281 with my denon d5000, which are at 25ohms, and turned the volume all the way up, and honestly there is not a sound that can be heard. like if you wanted to nitpick at full volume you can hear that it no longer is perfectly dead silent, but I'm talking like so little noise that you can barely hear it when everything is dead quiet. and thats only on the last notch of volume, literally any other volume placement is absolute dead silence, I had to check to make sure everything was plugged in still and on lol. Totally black background.

Thanks for that valuable answer, saxelrod92. 

Cheers

 

[fdg]

OK, first some (essential) words about volume control:
 
About different kinds of potentiometers (volume control)
 
Think of a simple potentiometer as an open resistor with its resistance increasing from one end to the other.
One end of the resistor is connected to the analog signal, the other end is connected to ground.
On the surface of this resistors there is a metalic whiper. By moving this whiper on the surface of the resistor different levels of attenuation may be achieved from no attenuation (whiper on the end where the signal comes in) to maximum attenuation (whiper on the end where ground is connected.
 
The increasing resistance of the potentiometer may follow different laws.
A linear law is preferred for balance or tone control.
A positive logarithm law is good for volume control while a negative logarithm law is best for microphone gain.

The above resistor may appear in different shapes.
Most time it is curved with an angele about 300 degrees from on end to the other.
On mixing consoles you will find straight potentiometers.
You can pack several channels (resistors) in an enclosure or pack several enclosures with a single resistor inside together and control them with one or more shafts.
 
But there are several disadvantages to consider when you like to use more than one potentiometer at a time - for stereo you need at least two.
There is ALWAYS a mismatch between two or more potentiometers as these cann´t be manufactured 100% exact. This mismatch can be heard as a channel imbalance, meaning the center may move a bit to the left or the right whilst turning the potentiometer.
Also the crosstalk may suffer during attenuation. Therefore better potentiometers have a chamber for each resistor.

Some potentiometers offer one or more detents to ease operation.
These detents have NOTHING to do with a stepped attenuator !!!
A common feature is a center detent for balance control to exactly determine the middle position.
Other popular detents are 13-detent for tone control,
31- or 41-detent for volume control to ease the repositioning to a specific value / angle.
 
To come across the accuracy- and crosstalk-issue several manufacturers offer real stepped attenuators.
These are realized with 12-step or 24-step turn-switches.
The limitation to max. 24 steps is due to the fact that there are no affordable turn-switches with more than 24 steps in this world.

Just imagine that the above mentioned resistor is devided in small portions of high accuracy with 1% or even 0.1 %.
Instead the whiper the 12-step or 24-step turn-switch acts to come from one resistor to the other.
Also you may position the switches for left and right far from each other to enhance crosstalk.
The disadvantage of this idea is that 24 steps often are not enough to meet your specific needs.
 
The next idea is the electronical attenuation.
There are some older approaches like the VCA (voltage controlled attenuator) which work quite fine as an attenuator but have high amounts of distortion.
The better approach is the DCA (digital controlled attenuator), offering 128 or 256 steps of very exact attenuation with good crosstalk. But unfortunately there is still some negative influence on the signal …
 
 
The final solution is the relay controlled attenuation.
It is as exact as the 24-step turn-switch solution (but with more steps) because of the use of accurate resistors. There is no noisy or distorting active electronic in the signal chain. There is best crosstalk.
Instead of the contacts of a turn-switch, here relays are in charge to switch between the resistors and perform the attenuation of the signal.
We at Violectric voted for a 128-step solution with 0.75 dB per step for a 96 dB attenuation.
 
To control electronic or relay based attenuators, normally up-down-buttons or incrementals (turn switches without a beginning or an end) are used because this is a cheap solution.
We voted for a real potentiometer with a beginning and an end so people can check by a simple look at the knob the amount of attenuation. To do so, we again use a RK27 motor driven potentiometer (which would not be nesseccary at this point) to have the same look and feel compared to our other gear. Instead the analog signal attenuation a control voltage is created by this potentiometer which is fed to an A/D converter to form a digital signal which sets the relays.

There is much light shining on the relay volume control but there is also some shadows:
You will hear the relays working whilst turning the knob, this is some clicking when turning slow or even sounds like some soft noise coming out of the box when turning fast.
The other disadvantage is the power consumption ….
 

 

[fdg]

 
@ Zkadoush


You have also mentioned that transformers and power supply in the V220/V281 are different from V200, would it be to much indiscretion to ask you for some details about those differences?
Inside V200 we are using a 10 W transformer.
Inside V220 we are using a 25 W transformer because there is much additional circuitry to supply.
Additionally there is a 15 W transformer for V281 on the upper amp-PCB.

Will there be some digital specs for the new 24/192 DAC modules in the near future?
There will be some more details when our new site is up ... by now violectric-usa.com is best for competent answers.

I really like the idea of a standalone balanced V281 Amp (or V282), it would be a great option for those looking for the ultimate Balanced Amp.
First we are working on our current line (specially V220 / V281) to get them out as perfect we and our customers expect )

Thanks againg for all your answers, and sorry for all the questions.
You´re always welcome !!

Greetz
 
Fried

 

[roskodan]

  To come across the accuracy- and crosstalk-issue several manufacturers offer real stepped attenuators.
These are realized with 12-step or 24-step turn-switches.
The limitation to max. 24 steps is due to the fact that there are no affordable turn-switches with more than 24 steps in this world.

Just imagine that the above mentioned resistor is devided in small portions of high accuracy with 1% or even 0.1 %.
Instead the whiper the 12-step or 24-step turn-switch acts to come from one resistor to the other.
Also you may position the switches for left and right far from each other to enhance crosstalk.
The disadvantage of this idea is that 24 steps often are not enough to meet your specific needs.
 

 
i got me a khozmo stepped, 48 steps, attenuator, and didn't have any contact or noise issue with it, but i had bad experiences with other stepped attenuators manufacturers
 
http://www.khozmo.com/
 
can the new amp work with one of those khozmo attenuators? they have shunt, series, leader types etc.
 
because it works, has 48 steps and it's cheap for what one gets, the relays upgrade option is just priced fantastically imo, especially if it's not the vacuum relays switches, although specs wise it seems fantastic
 
another thing i don't get is why is there being offered two amps with different front panels, v220 and v281, rather than one amp with a SE and balanced option available upon ordering/upgrading, so to have the same front panel, lowering costs, just put a cover on the xlr balanced output for those amps that ships only with SE option?

 

[rx79ez08]

  To control electronic or relay based attenuators, normally up-down-buttons or incrementals (turn switches without a beginning or an end) are used because this is a cheap solution.
We voted for a real potentiometer with a beginning and an end so people can check by a simple look at the knob the amount of attenuation. To do so, we again use a RK27 motor driven potentiometer (which would not be nesseccary at this point) to have the same look and feel compared to our other gear. Instead the analog signal attenuation a control voltage is created by this potentiometer which is fed to an A/D converter to form a digital signal which sets the relays.

There is much light shining on the relay volume control but there is also some shadows:
You will hear the relays working whilst turning the knob, this is some clicking when turning slow or even sounds like some soft noise coming out of the box when turning fast.
The other disadvantage is the power consumption ….
 

 
Interesting, if I understand correctly the volume control for a standard and volume control solution 1 is actually done by a electronic potentiometer that is controlled by an ADC, which is in turn controlled by a real potentiometer.
 
The V281 sounds great, very powerful. Your guys have managed to significantly improve the clarity and signature of the amp as compare to the V200. The only slight complain I have is the gain is too high for me. With the pre-amp gain at -12, balance input from a M51 at 0db gain, I rarely go near 9 o'clock for the volume dial. For most headphones I mostly only go to 8 o'clock or even 7 o'clock.
 
Are all the 24/192 DAC broad regardless of on USB, optical or coaxial input based on the same DAC chip? I am weighting up between the coaxial and the USB version, would be interested in what is the major difference between them beside the input.

 

[project86]

   
Hi project86,

Speaking of comparative refrences, I was wondering if you would maintain the roughly same difference in sound characteristics you describe between the V200 and the CMA800R (Full bodied bass, grunt and more gusto vs more detail, tonal accuracy, wider soundstage and better imaging), while comparing the V281/V220 and the CMA800R?
Does the V220/V281 allow for listening with IEMs, or do they have an audible noise floor?

Cheers

 
Yes, I'd say the V281 (and V220) are an evolution of the V200 sound, so the general comparison with CMA800R still holds. However, this time around things are more open sounding with the new Violectric. So advantages that formerly went to the Questyle amp, are less of a difference now.
 
 
So far I've been using extremely sensitive IEMs like the UM Merlin, with -6dB pregain setting, and it's very quiet. I suppose I could go to -12dB if I had any trouble but thus far there's no need. It's just like V200 which means extremely good with IEMs - the huge volume knob is great for dialing in a precise setting. I have not tried my balanced IEMs yet. 
 
 

   
Interesting, if I understand correctly the volume control for a standard and volume control solution 1 is actually done by a electronic potentiometer that is controlled by an ADC, which is in turn controlled by a real potentiometer.
 
The V281 sounds great, very powerful. Your guys have managed to significantly improve the clarity and signature of the amp as compare to the V200. The only slight complain I have is the gain is too high for me. With the pre-amp gain at -12, balance input from a M51 at 0db gain, I rarely go near 9 o'clock for the volume dial. For most headphones I mostly only go to 8 o'clock or even 7 o'clock.
 
Are all the 24/192 DAC broad regardless of on USB, optical or coaxial input based on the same DAC chip? I am weighting up between the coaxial and the USB version, would be interested in what is the major difference between them beside the input.

 
Interesting - what headphone is this with? 
 
The NAD M51 puts out 4.75V through the XLR outputs at the 0dB setting. Which is slightly hotter than the usual 4V but not by a huge margin. So it shouldn't have that problem when pregain is set low. 
 
Are you sure you aren't reading the pregain settings backwards, and setting it to +12dB instead of -12? You wouldn't be the first person to make that mistake. Start with all switches down. Flip the switch marked -12 (on the far left side) upwards, leaving all others down.