[Justin_Time]

Unlike home speakers where the nominal impedance varies between only 4 and 8 ohms, headphone impedance can vary from as low as ~ 80 ohm (Focal Utopia) to as high as ~ 600 ohms. It is hard to design an amp that works perfectly with all headphones. It is just as hard to find a pair of headphones that sound good with all amps. Part (not all) of the problem is dynamic damping--the rule of thumb (backed by an analysis I won't bother you with) is to keep the impedance ratio (HP over amp) above 8. That is not always possible with all amp designs and all HPs.

My Apex Teton sounds great with the HD-800S but not so much with the Utopia (too much bloom in the bass). On the other hand, my GS-X Mk2 sounds great with the Utopia but was a little too analytical with the HD-800S. I have not had enough time yet to try the V281 with all my headphones--I have had it for just a couple of months. But so far, there are hits and misses as with the other two amps. I would say it is in the same league as the Teton and the GS-X. Good amp!

 

[Pharmaboy]

(the following is not based on theory or measurements...just listening)

Some amps, even ones without a dramatic/noticeable sonic signature, seem to impose their sound on headphones. Out of the 5 solid state amps I have, only 1 seems to do this at all: the Audio GD SA-31SE. Despite its considerable power (10 wpc), this amp has a self-effacing, somewhat muted sound: relatively quiet, not big in dynamics, down-the-middle-bass, and (best quality) black background + lots of space between notes (great for percussion). Out of the 8-10 headphones I've tried on this amp, all but 1 didn't sound (to at least some extent) more or less what I just described.

The V281 is just the opposite. It does have a sound signature vs other amps (very slight warmth; concussive bass; big soundstage; insane dynamics). Yet all the headphones I've heard it on just sounded more like themselves--not the V281. So for any given headphone, whatever I hear on the V281 will probably come through on other amps. This makes the V281 useful for analyzing & comparing headphones. It's as close as I've heard to a "one size fits all" headphone amp--greatly enhanced by its extreme input/output & switching flexibility.

Of course, the one OTL/tube amp--the Woo WA3--plays by totally different rules. On low impedance designs, it boosts bass; but on high impedance designs it locks in to a startling degree. IMO you get an OTL precisely because it will lock in w/high impedance HPs (while not really being the best choice for low impedance ones).

 

[zhgutov]

Yet all the headphones I've heard it on just sounded more like themselves--not the V281. So for any given headphone, whatever I hear on the V281 will probably come through on other amps. This makes the V281 useful for analyzing & comparing headphones.

Very interesting observation, in my opinion.

Recently I purchased Lake People ADC RS 04 and since that I made a couple of loopback recordings.
I found some ADC shootouts @ gearslutz forum and made loopbacks with their source tracks too.
After that I compared the source tracks with their recordings, and with my own recording.
I used different playback systems with different DACs to compare tracks (to be sure my DAC does not affect the observations).

I've found that I can easily pick the other DACs and ADCs in that shootouts.
But I cannot pick the original track or my recording, no matter is it A/B comparison or not.
Yes, I expected my system to be very transparent, but I didn't expect what I will not be able to hear the difference at all.

Surprisingly, even so called "mastering" converters have their sound signature, which is easy to hear.
And such converters may cost much more, even more than $10000.
This is okay if you want to "color" the sound, no matter is it audiophile device or pro audio device.
But I don't think it is good when you want to control the sound.

I don't know how to make the same test for the headphone amp, and probably there may be more difference with that kind of gear,
but I think all Lake People / Violectric devices share the same thing: they are true to source.

 

[Pharmaboy]

Very interesting observation, in my opinion.

Recently I purchased Lake People ADC RS 04 and since that I made a couple of loopback recordings.
I found some ADC shootouts @ gearslutz forum and made loopbacks with their source tracks too.
After that I compared the source tracks with their recordings, and with my own recording.
I used different playback systems with different DACs to compare tracks (to be sure my DAC does not affect the observations).

I've found that I can easily pick the other DACs and ADCs in that shootouts.
But I cannot pick the original track or my recording, no matter is it A/B comparison or not.
Yes, I expected my system to be very transparent, but I didn't expect what I will not be able to hear the difference at all.

Surprisingly, even so called "mastering" converters have their sound signature, which is easy to hear.
And such converters may cost much more, even more than $10000.
This is okay if you want to "color" the sound, no matter is it audiophile device or pro audio device.
But I don't think it is good when you want to control the sound.

I don't know how to make the same test for the headphone amp, and probably there may be more difference with that kind of gear,
but I think all Lake People / Violectric devices share the same thing: they are true to source.

Now it's your post that is interesting!

It seems to me that underneath all our comparisons of amps & HPs is a verity of audio (in general):

• It's rather easy for audio gear to "interpret" or color the incoming signal...to "editorialize" & impose a "flavor" on the input/signal
• It's extremely difficult for audio gear to convey the input/signal w/complete transparency to the downstream equipment. Correction: complete transparency is impossible

A related thought: the impossibility of microphones, mixing decks, other recording gear to completely/transparently "capture" live performance.

Another: "Transducers" (speakers & headphones), no matter how well engineered, remain assemblages of electrical/electronics + vibrating components + vibration control agents. We talk about "voicing" speakers or headphones. While that's a real art (my favorite "voicing" in headphones is by ZMF), it's is also an admission that genuine transparency to input/source is not possible...

Years ago when I had a big 2-channel "audiophile" system dominating my living room...eventually I realized no audio system, no matter how good or expensive, could really reproduce a live performance (even something like 1 singer w/acoustic guitar). People react to this in different ways. Some chase equipment they believe to be more accurate, revealing, and detailed (sort of like those who confuse high resolution w/quality in photography, when resolution is just 1 ingredient). Others chase warmth, musicality, "organic" sound (I'm in that group).

These distinctions are always present in desktop & headphone audio...the "facts of life"

 

[zhgutov]

Yes, the headphones and amps (especially headphones) should have more difference than the currently available DACs and ADCs.
But... Just try it by yourself: https://zhgutov.online/dropfolder/wandlertest.zip (~ 400 MB).
Maybe the playback systems I used and/or my ears limit the comparison.
I'm not trying to tell the source and the recording have no difference at all.

One of my track have "glitch" in the second half, but I think it's okay, and you can compare the first half of the track.
The source tracks ("referenz") are taken from here: Acousence, Andiamo, Lake People, Lavry, StageTech ADC shootout.

 

[Justin_Time]

(the following is not based on theory or measurements...just listening)

Some amps, even ones without a dramatic/noticeable sonic signature, seem to impose their sound on headphones. Out of the 5 solid state amps I have, only 1 seems to do this at all: the Audio GD SA-31SE....

The V281 is just the opposite. It does have a sound signature vs other amps (very slight warmth; concussive bass; big soundstage; insane dynamics). Yet all the headphones I've heard it on just sounded more like themselves--not the V281. So for any given headphone, whatever I hear on the V281 will probably come through on other amps. This makes the V281 useful for analyzing & comparing headphones. It's as close as I've heard to a "one size fits all" headphone amp--greatly enhanced by its extreme input/output & switching flexibility.

Of course, the one OTL/tube amp--the Woo WA3--plays by totally different rules. On low impedance designs, it boosts bass; but on high impedance designs it locks in to a startling degree. IMO you get an OTL precisely because it will lock in w/high impedance HPs (while not really being the best choice for low impedance ones).

(the following is not based on theory or measurements...just listening)

Some amps, even ones without a dramatic/noticeable sonic signature, seem to impose their sound on headphones. Out of the 5 solid state amps I have, only 1 seems to do this at all: the Audio GD SA-31SE. Despite its considerable power (10 wpc), this amp has a self-effacing, somewhat muted sound: relatively quiet, not big in dynamics, down-the-middle-bass, and (best quality) black background + lots of space between notes (great for percussion). Out of the 8-10 headphones I've tried on this amp, all but 1 didn't sound (to at least some extent) more or less what I just described.

The V281 is just the opposite. It does have a sound signature vs other amps (very slight warmth; concussive bass; big soundstage; insane dynamics). Yet all the headphones I've heard it on just sounded more like themselves--not the V281. So for any given headphone, whatever I hear on the V281 will probably come through on other amps. This makes the V281 useful for analyzing & comparing headphones. It's as close as I've heard to a "one size fits all" headphone amp--greatly enhanced by its extreme input/output & switching flexibility.

Of course, the one OTL/tube amp--the Woo WA3--plays by totally different rules. On low impedance designs, it boosts bass; but on high impedance designs it locks in to a startling degree. IMO you get an OTL precisely because it will lock in w/high impedance HPs (while not really being the best choice for low impedance ones).

I have no experience with the Audio GD, so I can’t comment on that.

But I agree with your description of the “sound”of the V281 completely.

On a related topic, I do not believe that an audio equipment can be completely transparent, or not "have a sound" of its own. That is just a dream some of us have. If a simple cable can change the sound of headphones--we all have experienced that--then a complicated equipment like an amp will certainly add a sound,.More accurately, a piece of equipment within a system will INTERACT with that system to produce a specific sound. Because of that, it is very hard to isolate just the "sound" of a piece of equipment. But with a large number of systems, a lot of painstaking comparison and a healthy dose of patience, the persistent sound of an particular amp or HP can be recognized.

The V281 consistently produces a tighter, more dynamic bass than the GS-X Mk2 and the Apex Teton. Both amps have very fast transient attacks with minimal overshoots, but the GS-X Mk2 has a slightly slower decay which leads to a euphonic mid-range and rather sweet treble--the GS-X Mk2 is surprisingly similar to a tube amp in that respect but with much tighter bass. If the V281 has a small shortcoming--and I am being very picky here--it is in the treble. With HP like the HD-800S or the Grado PS2000, the sound can be slightly edgy sometimes. The GS-X Mk2 and Apex Teton (and the Woo WA5 as well) do not show that same tendency. Overall, the V281 holds its own among the big boys costing a lot more and represents very good value--I cannot believe I said that about a $2900 head-amp!

 

[Pharmaboy]

"If the V281 has a small shortcoming--and I am being very picky here--it is in the treble. With HP like the HD-800S or the Grado PS2000, the sound can be slightly edgy sometimes."

I think you're right. The slight warmth I hear in this amp is from the midrange on down; above that the V281 is rather neutral.

I don't often hear that edginess, no doubt because I'm treble averse, so headphones I acquire tend to lack the sharp upper midrange & treble that would spotlight that in an amp.

BTW, my amp w/a "family resemblance" to the V281 (Lake People G109-A) is not edgy in the treble at all. It manages to be slightly warm, yet relatively level across frequencies. I've never heard a headphone sound bad on it. But its bass & dynamics, while very good, don't match the V281.

 

[musicmaker]

(the following is not based on theory or measurements...just listening)

Some amps, even ones without a dramatic/noticeable sonic signature, seem to impose their sound on headphones. Out of the 5 solid state amps I have, only 1 seems to do this at all: the Audio GD SA-31SE. Despite its considerable power (10 wpc), this amp has a self-effacing, somewhat muted sound: relatively quiet, not big in dynamics, down-the-middle-bass, and (best quality) black background + lots of space between notes (great for percussion). Out of the 8-10 headphones I've tried on this amp, all but 1 didn't sound (to at least some extent) more or less what I just described.

The V281 is just the opposite. It does have a sound signature vs other amps (very slight warmth; concussive bass; big soundstage; insane dynamics). Yet all the headphones I've heard it on just sounded more like themselves--not the V281. So for any given headphone, whatever I hear on the V281 will probably come through on other amps. This makes the V281 useful for analyzing & comparing headphones. It's as close as I've heard to a "one size fits all" headphone amp--greatly enhanced by its extreme input/output & switching flexibility.

Of course, the one OTL/tube amp--the Woo WA3--plays by totally different rules. On low impedance designs, it boosts bass; but on high impedance designs it locks in to a startling degree. IMO you get an OTL precisely because it will lock in w/high impedance HPs (while not really being the best choice for low impedance ones).

Agree with almost everything except soundstage. In my tests, I did not hear the V281 as having a big soundstage. In fact it was smaller compared to my GS-X mk2 and Moon 430HA. Imaging was great and precise. To me imaging is more important than perceived soundstage in a headphone.

 

[zhgutov]

Agree with almost everything except soundstage. In my tests, I did not hear the V281 as having a big soundstage. In fact it was smaller compared to my GS-X mk2 and Moon 430HA. Imaging was great and precise. To me imaging is more important than perceived soundstage in a headphone.

This is another interesting thing. I found that there are converters which can do the following two things.
One thing is artificially enlarged soundstage (this was really surprising, I was thinking this is directly related to the converter quality, and the fake soundstage is more related to the headphones).
Another thing is lack/altering of finest/deep details, microtextures (I cannot find the right word here), which may increase the instrument separation, and make the individual instruments more pronounced.
But they are not closer to original. And the indirect sign of the altered signal (if there is no reference) may be found in imaging (in the meaning of imaginable depth, not only positioning).

Unfortunately, I cannot imagine a good test, which can show such things for the amps (don't know how to get the reference for sure), but I think this is even more related to the amps than to the DACs and ADCs.

 

[Pharmaboy]

This is another interesting thing. I found that there are converters which can do the following two things.
One thing is artificially enlarged soundstage (this was really surprising, I was thinking this is directly related to the converter quality, and the fake soundstage is more related to the headphones).
Another thing is lack/altering of finest/deep details, microtextures (I cannot find the right word here), which may increase the instrument separation, and make the individual instruments more pronounced.
But they are not closer to original. And the indirect sign of the altered signal (if there is no reference) may be found in imaging (in the meaning of imaginable depth, not only positioning).

Unfortunately, I cannot imagine a good test, which can show such things for the amps (don't know how to get the reference for sure), but I think this is even more related to the amps than to the DACs and ADCs.

Yes--both DACs & amps can exaggerate soundstage (in somewhat different ways). "Microtexture" is a great observation (ie, very small amplitude--yet critically important--spatial cues embedded in the audio signal). And of course, headphones can use cup resonance & sound attenuation/reinforcement materials to directly alter soundstage.

I like that you continue to think of testing to reveal some of these really small (but important) sonic events.

Sadly, testing usually lags behind other innovations in audio. Good example: early digital sound. It measured as perfect, but usually sounded terrible. The measurement-obsessed "objectivists" went nuts on people like me, who heard this & openly talked about it ("bit are bits!" "measurements don't lie!" "your ears don't have the resolution of an oscilloscope"). Of course, later all kinds of reasons were found to explain why early digital sounded bad (crappy analog/output sections; brick-wall filters required w/16-bit conversion; jitter; delta-sigma vs multibit; etc).

 

[zhgutov]

I like that you continue to think of testing to reveal some of these really small (but important) sonic events.

Sadly, testing usually lags behind other innovations in audio. Good example: early digital sound. It measured as perfect, but usually sounded terrible. The measurement-obsessed "objectivists" went nuts on people like me, who heard this & openly talked about it ("bit are bits!" "measurements don't lie!" "your ears don't have the resolution of an oscilloscope"). Of course, later all kinds of reasons were found to explain why early digital sounded bad (crappy analog/output sections; brick-wall filters required w/16-bit conversion; jitter; delta-sigma vs multibit; etc).

Yeah, this is like any theory. It is based on observations anyway, and follows the reality.
But both worlds have their own strengths. I like to use them all (those to which I am able to pay attention).

Moreover, I like to listen to some subjectively biased gear, they may sound very cool.
But for some reason I notice such things after the time, and because they usually remain the same, I want to change the corresponding gear finally.
Well, maybe this is what all audiophiles from the subjectivists camp are usually do

This approach reminds me the way of the mastering engineers (or maybe I think they work this way).
They have transparent equipment to control the result, and they have tons of devices and plugins, which may be used to color/adjust the sound.
This is where the both worlds crosses, in my opinion.
Maybe I should try such thing, but I don't know how to start at the present time.

 

[Pharmaboy]

Agree with almost everything except soundstage. In my tests, I did not hear the V281 as having a big soundstage. In fact it was smaller compared to my GS-X mk2 and Moon 430HA. Imaging was great and precise. To me imaging is more important than perceived soundstage in a headphone.

Thought-provoking comment...it seems accurate, but I'll have to do some quality listening to check.

This makes me realize I only hear soundstaging in a general way (ie, as good, bad, or indifferent)--but haven't distinguished between the space vs imaging. Perhaps because I don't own reference HPs (ie, HD800) that can expose these fine points clearly. I also don't listen to as much classical music on headphones as I should; those recordings often have a great deal of spatial information.

I had this "space vs image" thing totally mapped out w/speakers, but really haven't done so w/headphones. Easier to focus on frequencies...more to hear & learn.

 

[Justin_Time]

Yes--both DACs & amps can exaggerate soundstage (in somewhat different ways). "Microtexture" is a great observation (ie, very small amplitude--yet critically important--spatial cues embedded in the audio signal). And of course, headphones can use cup resonance & sound attenuation/reinforcement materials to directly alter soundstage.

I like that you continue to think of testing to reveal some of these really small (but important) sonic events.

Sadly, testing usually lags behind other innovations in audio. Good example: early digital sound. It measured as perfect, but usually sounded terrible. The measurement-obsessed "objectivists" went nuts on people like me, who heard this & openly talked about it ("bit are bits!" "measurements don't lie!" "your ears don't have the resolution of an oscilloscope"). Of course, later all kinds of reasons were found to explain why early digital sounded bad (crappy analog/output sections; brick-wall filters required w/16-bit conversion; jitter; delta-sigma vs multibit; etc).

You made many good points that I agree with wholeheartedly.

In the scientific community where I work, we understand the limitations of the numerical (digital) approach, digitizing mathematical equations. There are always small numerical errors that can propagate non-linearly and lead to the wrong results in unexpected areas—we call some of these errors numerical dispersion.

Yes, as you mentioned, dearly CD could not live up to the hype—I agree, they did sounded terrible—and the hype continues even to these days about the perfection of things digital. As we learn more about any new advanced technology, we begin to understand the new problems and correct them as we go. The challenge is not what we know, understand and can measure, or what we don’t know, but what we don’t know what we don’t know—the unknown unknown to quote Donald Rumsfeld. We can measure only what we want and know how to measure but not what we do not suspect—or even willing to admit—exists.

In short, it would be helpful to be just a little more humble about what we can understand and measure, and thus encourage continuously improvement of things as we go. Back to the V281, after different combinations of sources, DAC, amps and HPs, and at the risk of antagonizing some folks here, I firmly believe that there is still a small inherent SS edginess or harshness (that may be too strongg a word) with the V281;that can be mitigated with HP like the Utopia, in combination with a DAC with tube analog section like the ModWright Oppo 205, or with analog source And a tube phono stage and preamp. But that is usually what we do with any system, matching equipments to take advantage of their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

 

[Arnaldo]

... Back to the V281, after different combinations of sources, DAC, amps and HPs, and at the risk of antagonizing some folks here, I firmly believe that there is still a small inherent SS edginess or harshness (that may be too strongg a word) with the V281;that can be mitigated with HP like the Utopia, in combination with a DAC with tube analog section like the ModWright Oppo 205, or with analog source And a tube phono stage and preamp. But that is usually what we do with any system, matching equipments to take advantage of their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

Pairing the V281 with the Utopia does indeed produce a powerful and warm sound. So much so that I've been considering silver cables with the intent of introducing a bit of "SS edginess" into mix. Rather than "harshness," I associate good solid-state amps - such as the V281 - with resolution and articulation, as opposed to tube-induced euphonic distortion anywhere in the audio chain.

 

[Justin_Time]

Pairing the V281 with the Utopia does indeed produce a powerful and warm sound. So much so that I've been investigating aftermarket silver cables with the intent of introducing a bit of "SS edginess" into mix. Rather than "harshness," I associate good solid-state amps - such as the V281 - with resolution and articulation, as opposed to tube-induced euphonic distortion anywhere in the audio chain.

I have done it. I used a pair of silver Litz cables. I get more presence in the voice, more detail and a slight shimmer in the treble but no more edginess or harshness from the Utopia than I got from the stock cables.