Verum Audio - Exciting high performance DIY planar
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Nov 23, 2019 at 9:02 AM Post #1,051 of 1,486
While I absolutely agree with the notion of supporting small-scale entrepreneurs in this hobby, very important, I also think the belief that they will magically come across some secret that everybody else somehow missed allowing their $350 headphone to best much more expensive headphones, while theoretically possible, highly unlikely. I could write a long post detailing the various reasons I would suggest this, but really I think it should be quite obvious why these lofty expectations are wonderful and positive in nature, but really not founded on any scientific rationale. I say scientific rationale as including production and design as well as the underlying science. I think if somebody in these settings produces a nice sound signature that you enjoy, and the technical abilities are in keeping with the price, that is already a great success. I can't guarantee it, but it sounds extremely far fetched to be expecting a giant killer every time a new small-scale outfit produces a nice piece of gear. I think the fact that they manage to produce good sounding gear is really worth celebrating and I am very grateful to all the members who do support such entrepreneurship. I might even give these a try a little down the road, but I am not expecting, nor do I care about giant killers.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 10:42 AM Post #1,052 of 1,486
really not founded on any scientific rationale. I say scientific rationale as including production and design as well as the underlying science.
it sounds extremely far fetched to be expecting a giant killer every time a new small-scale outfit produces a nice piece of gear

  • I would argue many accolades regarding the Verum are backed up by science. these measure incredibly well in FR, decay & distortion.
  • far fetched? why? I cannot believe how many $500+ headphones from big brands have significant flaws that make them incredibly fatiguing to wear/use for an extended period of time
  • every time a new small-scale outfit produces a nice piece of gear? sorry, I can't speak for others but most of my experience is from big brands and I would argue the only other small brand I was excited for recently was a flop with the Vokyl erupt

they are not perfect. the headband needs a ton of work. They also are fairly lacking in sound stage (along with most planars) and they are only okay at imaging (along with most planars).

you have clearly been around awhile. pick up a pair, they will surprise you. sonically they are great. ergonomically, they need some work. don't let the fact that it's a small outfit and an affordable price tag give you all kinds of preconceived notions without trying them.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 10:49 AM Post #1,053 of 1,486
While the Verum 1 is a good HP, it has its greatest sonic strength in its ability to let the user enjoy the music.
At 350 USD I dont fault it, but doing a comparison with say my Final Sonorous VI shows up the vagueness ( not pinpoint imaging ) that better HP is capable of.
Against the TOTL HP it would be blatantly untrue to even put the Verum 1 even 2-3 levels below them. Again I stress that I love my Verum 1's and use them with my Iphone 11, my Onkyo DAP-1, but when u scale up to my main tube or class A SS HP system driving my HD800 and HE560 and ABYSS AB1266 Phi/CC.. it does not reach the heights of those HP's

I have not tried the Final Sonorous VI, but it obviously is going to be worlds apart in terms of timbre, imaging and stage - as it you are comparing a closed back dynamic to an open back planar. these look intriguing, I will have to check them out at some point. I am just saying, a closed back dynamic that is well built is going to be great at imaging - a benefit of the tech.

Interesting to me that you like the HD800 and 560 more than Verum 1. personally the Verum 1 walks all over the HD800, more due to price and fatigue of the HD800 - again two very different vehicles though. Most folks I have read impressions from who have tried both the 560 and Verum 1, prefer the Verum 1.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 11:09 AM Post #1,054 of 1,486
I also think the belief that they will magically come across some secret that everybody else somehow missed allowing their $350 headphone to best much more expensive headphones, while theoretically possible, highly unlikely.
I think what's most likely going on here with all the praise for this unit is people being surprised to (re)discover from time to time just how important FR/timbre is to the musical experience. So many audiophiles so easily slip down the rabbit-hole of 'nerdy' stats and parameters they forget (unless they regularly listen to a good variety of headphones) what the major coordinates of good sound are. And then they're amazed to rediscover some of the basics when some new headphone with good 'nerdy' stats also happens to have very good 'fundamentals'.

I know I'm almost always positively surprised in one way or another when coming back to my cheap dynamics like the Superlux HD662 Evo or the KSC75 after going without them for too long and listening only to planars.

But I will say the bass impact will probably not surprise me anymore after getting the Verum 1. I judge it as having 95-100% the same impact as my Superlux, which I doubt any HiFiMan at this price can claim (and possibly no other planar either). This makes it a technological milestone for affordable planars IMO.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 12:17 PM Post #1,058 of 1,486
  • I would argue many accolades regarding the Verum are backed up by science. these measure incredibly well in FR, decay & distortion. - They absolutely do, not contesting that, but there are many headphones that measure well. There are also many measurement systems and procedures and the results can be different enough so that remains an unknown. When I see Jude and some other heavy hitters with crazy rigs and years of measurement experience get the same results that will lend more weight. As it stands now, in terms of measurements, there are only a few data points and in scientific inquiry, the more data, the more confidence. Additionally, visually inspecting frequency responses has limits in the sense that how sensitive our hearing brain is may not really be captured visually, it is a rough depiction and when something becomes audibly significant is not actually always well represented by a graph. They may under or over-emphasize potential differences.

  • far fetched? why? I cannot believe how many $500+ headphones from big brands have significant flaws that make them incredibly fatiguing to wear/use for an extended period of time - Absolutely, I would never say otherwise, but this also does stray into the realm of personal preference as some people will love the same attributes about a signature that you find fatiguing. Horses for courses as they say.

  • every time a new small-scale outfit produces a nice piece of gear? sorry, I can't speak for others but most of my experience is from big brands and I would argue the only other small brand I was excited for recently was a flop with the Vokyl erupt - Yes, clearly I was being a little intentionally dramatic/generalizing, but I have been around here quite some time, and almost always there is at least an initial surge of enthusiasm for and people hoping that a small outfit will somehow find that magic everyone else missed (which is the far-fetched expectation in my belief and previous post). It really makes no sense to think that all of the other companies with years of experience, decent R&D, testing and production gear, budgets, processes were unable to find the secret that was just eluding them. Possible, but unlikely. This is after all not a new technology, there are not new special materials, simply variations on a theme. Still round cups, padding materials, magnets, array flows, tracings, wires etc. Now if the new theme is particularly strong in some areas or matches somebodies preferences better, no problem, I can get behind that and even expect that, but a wholesale belief that everybody else just misses these easy to find elements of better sound, or that they all lack ability in tuning their offerings musically, that is where I start to say a little caution and temperance in claims and expectations are warranted.
they are not perfect. the headband needs a ton of work. They also are fairly lacking in sound stage (along with most planars) and they are only okay at imaging (along with most planars). The Edition XV2 has incredible soundstage and I am sure there are other examples.

you have clearly been around awhile. pick up a pair, they will surprise you. sonically they are great. ergonomically, they need some work. don't let the fact that it's a small outfit and an affordable price tag give you all kinds of preconceived notions without trying them. - Despite my tone I actually don't feel price tag or who made something is the most important factor in a high quality end result. They are factors, and simply discounting them is equally problematic, but I do have a very open mind and will likely try this headphone. I think at the end of the day I react to people seemingly ignoring what being a giant killer really means. Sure, there are no dealer mark-ups so in theory the lower price might be said to be making delivering a product for less that would typically cost more due to mark-ups is possible. I am very confident that scale of economy would nullify this as a significant factor. Audeze, HiFiman, Mr. Speaker etc all have significant scale of economy advantages that really should neutralize the concern raised about dealer mark-ups being part of the dollar value of high end headphone prices (and they are factors no doubt).

The next assumption that needs to be accepted is that this individual has somehow transcended ability and has such an advantage with his ear that the tuning is just beyond what other people can manage. Possible of course, but again, simply accepting that at face value is problematic. Most humans barring major structural anomalies have very, very, similar hearing brains, evolution has assured that and unless people are making the case that certain individuals have special abilities, again possible, but incredible claims require incredible evidence. So we are then left with explanations for the giant killing abilities found in the production/design/testing process and here again I see no compelling reason offered what is so different that none before have manage to do as well.

Personally it sounds like the headphone is very well designed and tuned, and that people are responding to a fantastic sound signature that clearly they find is more than full-value for the cost. I have no issues at all with such claims, why would I? It is the notion that is being floated here (at least a little) that all the really expensive stuff is basically pure unadulterated profit margins with none of the price differential going into R&D, materials, or production. While again I am sure there is some truth, it isn't likely to be globally true or significant enough to account for all of the price variability. I think a $400 headphone can sound very, very good and there is no reason to think that it can't compete, and depending on personal preference, even best more expensive designs, but again, assuming some kind of incredible design and tuning difference that makes something a proverbial giant killer is a pretty high bar to get over. I am extremely curious about this headphone and it seems very likely that I will try it and I have quite high hopes that I will enjoy it. In order to enjoy it; however, I won't need it to be a giant killer, just be good value for the money spent.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 12:19 PM Post #1,059 of 1,486
Speaking about amping, does anyone use their Verums on THX AAA amp? I'm thinking about picking up the new SMSL SP200 after I've been eyeing the Drop 789 for a while (impossible to get in EU for a reasonable price).
Last time I've heard Verums it was on Atom which is not the best for pushing planars.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Post #1,061 of 1,486
I have the SMSL SU-8 DAC, and it is very nice indeed, but I will say that I was surprised to still perceive some of that Sabre glare we so often read about. I was coming from some warmer DACs in recent years and as my 2.1 channel system was a little warm I thought that a brighter DAC would work. It certainly does for my speaker listening, but I am less sure that I like it as well for headphone listening. I actually think that with my preference for a little warmth I preferred the DAC implementation in the FiiO Q5 and to a slightly lesser extent in the FiiO Q5s. Just worth mentioning in case anybody has an aversion to a focus on micro detail retrieval. Saying that, pretty darn nice DAC and features in the SMSL SU-8.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 1:51 PM Post #1,062 of 1,486
While I absolutely agree with the notion of supporting small-scale entrepreneurs in this hobby, very important, I also think the belief that they will magically come across some secret that everybody else somehow missed allowing their $350 headphone to best much more expensive headphones, while theoretically possible, highly unlikely. I could write a long post detailing the various reasons I would suggest this, but really I think it should be quite obvious why these lofty expectations are wonderful and positive in nature, but really not founded on any scientific rationale. I say scientific rationale as including production and design as well as the underlying science. I think if somebody in these settings produces a nice sound signature that you enjoy, and the technical abilities are in keeping with the price, that is already a great success. I can't guarantee it, but it sounds extremely far fetched to be expecting a giant killer every time a new small-scale outfit produces a nice piece of gear. I think the fact that they manage to produce good sounding gear is really worth celebrating and I am very grateful to all the members who do support such entrepreneurship. I might even give these a try a little down the road, but I am not expecting, nor do I care about giant killers.

I've read people say this many times: "it sounds good for the price"
Why can't a lower cost headphone best some TOTL?
What makes a TOTL worthy of a big inflated price?

Yes, I've said inflated because in audio, it usually is. I've written somewhere on the forum that I really don't understand how a headphone can cost that much: $1,500, $2,000, $4,000 or even higher...
R&D? In home audio where I come from, there's R&D too...
Marketing ? Same with home audio
Cost of material? Compared to a floorstander, highly unlikely...
Cost of production? Same as above... Especially some that are made in Asia.

The market is driving prices up, it's us buying at those prices - as simple as that

Last year, I was about to pull the trigger on a pair of $1,800 but decided against it when you see how much it cost to produce a pair of headphones...
Verum answers my query about how I want my headphone to sound (+ a good price).
Only big difference between it and the big brands is the dealer network. Hifiman, MrSpeaker, Focal (am a Focal fan for life in car audio), Sennheiser, all need higher markups for dealers to benefit from a sale. Verum is factory direct.

Not a rant, just my honest opinion

Kelvin
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 2:33 PM Post #1,063 of 1,486
I've read people say this many times: "it sounds good for the price"
Why can't a lower cost headphone best some TOTL?
What makes a TOTL worthy of a big inflated price?

Yes, I've said inflated because in audio, it usually is. I've written somewhere on the forum that I really don't understand how a headphone can cost that much: $1,500, $2,000, $4,000 or even higher...
R&D? In home audio where I come from, there's R&D too...
Marketing ? Same with home audio
Cost of material? Compared to a floorstander, highly unlikely...
Cost of production? Same as above... Especially some that are made in Asia.

The market is driving prices up, it's us buying at those prices - as simple as that

Last year, I was about to pull the trigger on a pair of $1,800 but decided against it when you see how much it cost to produce a pair of headphones...
Verum answers my query about how I want my headphone to sound (+ a good price).
Only big difference between it and the big brands is the dealer network. Hifiman, MrSpeaker, Focal (am a Focal fan for life in car audio), Sennheiser, all need higher markups for dealers to benefit from a sale. Verum is factory direct.

Not a rant, just my honest opinion

Kelvin

It's so tempting to get into all of the 'stuff' surrounding this very small niche industry., but it's yet another rabbit hole isn't it. The Chinese are coming after this market and very few will survive their onslaught. They are producing some very good/excellent product (don't worry, you'll eventually get over the stigma as us older guys did with the Japanese onslaught of 50 years ago) and are adopting the new way of doing things. Bonus for them, they don't really have to unlearn the old way. Online. Cutting out all the (greedy?) middle men and much of the marketing. Sell direct. Get it into the hands of youtube influencers and let 'er rip !! Pricing. Make less on each piece, but make it up easily on volume. The higher the price, the tougher the sale. American culture. Slow to change from the old standby methodology/resting on laurels. The Chinese are eating their breakfast and are working on lunch and dinner. Not a rant ... just the way it is.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 2:37 PM Post #1,064 of 1,486
I've read people say this many times: "it sounds good for the price"
Why can't a lower cost headphone best some TOTL?
What makes a TOTL worthy of a big inflated price?

Yes, I've said inflated because in audio, it usually is. I've written somewhere on the forum that I really don't understand how a headphone can cost that much: $1,500, $2,000, $4,000 or even higher...
R&D? In home audio where I come from, there's R&D too...
Marketing ? Same with home audio
Cost of material? Compared to a floorstander, highly unlikely...
Cost of production? Same as above... Especially some that are made in Asia.

The market is driving prices up, it's us buying at those prices - as simple as that

Last year, I was about to pull the trigger on a pair of $1,800 but decided against it when you see how much it cost to produce a pair of headphones...
Verum answers my query about how I want my headphone to sound (+ a good price).
Only big difference between it and the big brands is the dealer network. Hifiman, MrSpeaker, Focal (am a Focal fan for life in car audio), Sennheiser, all need higher markups for dealers to benefit from a sale. Verum is factory direct.

Not a rant, just my honest opinion

Kelvin
Indeed, all fair points, and quite a bit of your sentiments I would agree with. We are talking about similar, but also different things. I will say that you can't say there is no R&D cost, that seems unlikely, but I take your point (or I assume anyway) that there R&D costs are not as large as the price points might suggest they are. I am sure in general that is true, but on a continuum. I also think that affordable HiFiMan offerings for instance can sound quite good, personal preferences considered of course. Putting all of that aside, my point was, and remains, that it may not be reasonable to talk about giant killers as I have framed the discussion. You can make a very strong argument about cost to value ratio being really in favour of something like this headphone versus say an LCD 4, but again, even so, that will not be a universal opinion. I am not someone who believes that something must cost a kings ransom to sound good; however, I am also not going to suggest that some very expensive headphones can't and don't sound better (subjectively speaking) and it is up to the buyer to decide what constitutes value for the money, it is not a linear relationship.

I am not sure how you would find out how much it costs to make an $1800 pair of headphones. The cost is not simply the bill of goods either. In order to reach a scale of economy pricing, goods must be purchased in quantities so in order to say hit a bill of goods cost of $400 lets say, the company may need to buy enough material to produce 300 sets. Missing that quantity the price may jump up. So if a company decides they are going that route they need to finance the material acquisition, sign contracts of production, shipping, warehousing, marketing, distribution, support and service costs. Those are all aspects of cost so it goes well beyond simply how much does one unit cost to produce.

You also need to consider how long the inventory will age before running through, on this time you are paying compound interest on your line of credit so again, I think people make all kinds of over-simplified cost of production analysis when very few people actually have had to do it and sign the invoices. Simply having worked in an industry may not mean a person sees all the costs, they see what they see, but the deals and financing are often not something they are party to. I worked selling jewellery, computers and stereos for years, I never really knew what they cost to produce or even the full cost of landing the goods.
 
Nov 23, 2019 at 4:37 PM Post #1,065 of 1,486
All fair points for both of you...

I'm just gonna say one last thing regarding the price:
In the Focal Utopia headphone, there's a pair of beryllium drivers (2*tweeters) and the headphone costs €4,000
In car audio, the Utopia n°7 used to have an MSRP of €1,800. That's for a pair of beryllium tweeters, a pair of midrange, a pair of midbasses and a pair of passive selectabled crossover.

See my point? Focal sells the headphone for €4,000/$4,000 because people buy them at that price. Remember I like Focal as a brand

Kelvin
 
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