[Old Deaf Donkey]

I have heard that theory passed around and with all due respect to wikipedia you have to be cautious what is posted there in terms of accuracy. Believe what you wish, I studied tube theory and was taught differently. There are things that get passed from one person to the next and it gets a little fuzzy when you try to find the actual source, in science.

I cannot believe it or not as my own knowledge about physics and chemistry of the vacuum tube is insufficient. From my own experience in epistemology and scientific methods I can only guess what is plausible. The issue at hand is not deep science. When I read the text I have posted from Wiki, it makes sense to me in the context that we have been discussing. I do not see how it is fuzzy, not even in the sense of logic (Lotfi Zadeh). I would appreciate a simple explanation why you believe it does not make sense, based on your knowledge, i.e. a straightforward explanation why my supposition, based on the quote from Wiki, supported by 5 references, is wrong, rather that an unsubstantiated dismissal. I promise to try hard to overcome my ignorance to understand it.

 

[Paladin79]

I cannot believe it or not as my own knowledge about physics and chemistry of the vacuum tube is insufficient. From my own experience in epistemology and scientific methods I can only guess what is plausible. The issue at hand is not deep science. When I read the text I have posted from Wiki, it makes sense to me in the context that we have been discussing. I do not see how it is fuzzy, not even in the sense of logic (Lotfi Zadeh). I would appreciate a simple explanation why you believe it does not make sense, based on your knowledge, i.e. a straightforward explanation why my supposition, based on the quote from Wiki, supported by 5 references, is wrong, rather that an unsubstantiated dismissal. I promise to try hard to overcome my ignorance to understand it.[/QUOTE

I have been through this before and it is not something I care to indulge in again with all due respect.

 

[Old Deaf Donkey]

I understand. I can only regret that I have missed an opportunity to learn something new from you, in addition to what I have learned already. It is not something critical that I need to know, so I will not pester you again with it.

 

[Paladin79]

It is not easy to combine the subjective with the objective. I will try to answer in PM when I get the time, heading home soon.

 

[Old Deaf Donkey]

I understand. I can only regret that I have missed an opportunity to learn something new from you, in addition to what I have learned already. It is not something critical that I need to know, so I will not pester you again with it.

I think I found an answer to my query. It seems that the getter absorbs any residual gas in a tube within a rather short time once the filament is heated - in 30+ minutes, maybe a couple of hours, depending on the type of the tube. The sound improvement of much longer periods has not been scientifically explained in accessible sources so far.

 

[Logistics]

I was kidding. The SB Pro (there was actually a Sound Blaster Pro) was definitely a very good card in its time, but time marches on. (I really liked my Gravis sound card better, but SB was very nice).

Some of that old hardware could still be great if treated correctly. I experimented with one of the original Sound Blaster Live! cards for a while by replacing the electrolytics between the main DSP and its output OpAmps with films, and the card became extremely revealing--literally, a night and day difference. Then I replaced the caps on all the incoming voltage lines from the PCI bus with low-esr Panasonics, and the background became black as night silent. It was a great card, and I was using the kX drivers to allow me to use ASIO in Windows XP, and outputting to a Dynaco Stereo 70. XD Sade sounded great!

 

[Ripper2860]

Hmmmm. I still have a few SB cards lying about...


Drats. No ISA slots in my computer though!!!

 

[Logistics]

They make adapters to use them over a ribbon cable in an empty case slot. Just have to use additional +12V supply in tandem...

 

[Ripper2860]

Interesting. Any sources for the stuff you're doing w/ SB cards. Instructions and parts, etc.?

 

[bcowen]

Hmmmm. I still have a few SB cards lying about...


Drats. No ISA slots in my computer though!!!

You have computers in Texas now?

 

[bcowen]

Some of that old hardware could still be great if treated correctly. I experimented with one of the original Sound Blaster Live! cards for a while by replacing the electrolytics between the main DSP and its output OpAmps with films, and the card became extremely revealing--literally, a night and day difference. Then I replaced the caps on all the incoming voltage lines from the PCI bus with low-esr Panasonics, and the background became black as night silent. It was a great card, and I was using the kX drivers to allow me to use ASIO in Windows XP, and outputting to a Dynaco Stereo 70. XD Sade sounded great!

These are all SMD components you're replacing? I'm impressed. My trials with smd soldering has never ended well.

 

[Robert Padgett]

I have heard that theory passed around and with all due respect to Wikipedia you have to be cautious what is posted there in terms of accuracy. Believe what you wish, I studied tube theory and was taught differently. There are things that get passed from one person to the next and it gets a little fuzzy when you try to find the actual source, in science. Stating the parts of a tube, or its construction does not carry over to what might or might not change to cause it to sound "better" or "worse". I have never heard of it being quantified and it is easy enough to test the output of an audio device when a tube is brand new or ten hours or fifty hours or 100 hours into its usage.

I am grateful that my collection of tubes sound good to me. The biggest surprise--which I really cannot explain, is the consistent quality of new production tubes. I guess I am enjoying all the emissions and the role the getter plays because I am neither an engineer, not an expert about anything.

I figure when I am listening to music, that is good as it going to get, and enjoy. I have a bucket of choices should a replacement be needed, three sets deep, for either tube amp.

 

[Logistics]

These are all SMD components you're replacing? I'm impressed. My trials with smd soldering has never ended well.

Absolutely, not! Just working with small things like electrolytic capacitors, sometimes resistors or voltage regulators; all through-hole components. Of course, the rest of the PC is reinforced as well: the power supply has upgraded electrolytic capacitors, the motherboard gets low-esr electrolytics or polymers if it's something as horrifying as a Pentium 4 or higher. (It's amazing how snappy and peppy an old Pentium 4 of even the Socket 478 variety becomes after a polymer recap of its motherboard) And of course it helps with cleaning up your USB stage for use with DAC's and other hardware.

 

[Paladin79]

I would like to get my hands on a couple NOS 1953 Fotons for testing just to see if there are any measurable audio changes after 100 hours, or 10 hours or whatever. I have tried this with other tubes but in all fairness I want to try some tubes that people feel really change after a long burn in.

I was once working with a grad student who claimed that subjective human traits were measurable and it was part of his doctoral dissertation.

How hard can this be then?

I should try to buy four or five of those tubes, but being 66 years old, I would replace the solder in the pins before doing any testing.

If it is true that any tube sounds better after it burns in, I have a quad of untouched Tung Sols from Schiit as well as four I ran for several days straight before changing them out in a Freya. I have a young friend whose hearing is remarkable. I ran some tests on wire a while back and she was the only one who could pick out specific wire going to headphones on a regular basis. Using four brand new tubes and one that has been in place for several hours straight, she should be able to easily pick that last tube out on a regular basis as sounding different, I hesitate to use the word better. I also have a shop full of equipment and can borrow most anything I do not already own so I can do my own testing to see if there is any difference in an audible sound spectrum between a new tube and a slightly used one.

I mention the Foton just in case "burn in improvements" only apply to specific tubes and it is the one I should test.

 

[bcowen]

I would like to get my hands on a couple NOS 1953 Fotons for testing just to see if there are any measurable audio changes after 100 hours, or 10 hours or whatever. I have tried this with other tubes but in all fairness I want to try some tubes that people feel really change after a long burn in.

I was once working with a grad student who claimed that subjective human traits were measurable and it was part of his doctoral dissertation.

How hard can this be then?

I should try to buy four or five of those tubes, but being 66 years old, I would replace the solder in the pins before doing any testing.

If it is true that any tube sounds better after it burns in, I have a quad of untouched Tung Sols from Schiit as well as four I ran for several days straight before changing them out in a Freya. I have a young friend whose hearing is remarkable. I ran some tests on wire a while back and she was the only one who could pick out specific wire going to headphones on a regular basis. Using four brand new tubes and one that has been in place for several hours straight, she should be able to easily pick that last tube out on a regular basis as sounding different, I hesitate to use the word better. I also have a shop full of equipment and can borrow most anything I do not already own so I can do my own testing to see if there is any difference in an audible sound spectrum between a new tube and a slightly used one.

I mention the Foton just in case "burn in improvements" only apply to specific tubes and it is the one I should test.

IMO, Fotons are one of the best for this test. In my experience, they go through some quite audible changes as they break-in. More so than most any other tube I've tried, and more so than I can possibly attribute to just mood, environment, incoming AC quality, etc. And nothing else has changed in the system during the break-in periods and changes I've heard.

I'll send you a pair of tested but otherwise unused '53's. Pretty sure I have a pair that haven't had any time put on therm. If not, I know I have 51's and 52's that are tested but otherwise unused. Sonically, I can't discern any real difference between any of the ribbed plate versions that I have (51's - 55's), so a '52 should (logically) display the same behavior as a '53. One thing I HAVE found though (not with the Fotons but with the Melz) is that even though they pass all tests in the tester, there still may be a pin solder issue once stuck in the amp, evidenced by hum or a sputtering/static-ey type sound. The tester doesn't pick up on this, and maybe it's just that the wire is making contact when inserted in the tester socket but by the time the tube gets jostled around between the tester and the amp that pin (or pins) lose contact. So you *may* need to reflow the solder in these even though they tested fine....if that makes any sense.

On the same note, I hear very little difference in Frankentubes from totally new to several hundred hours of use. Seems they improve a little (smoother, less peaky) after 10-15 hours of play time, but the changes are pretty minor and I *could* attribute that to conditions external to the tube rather than the tube itself if I wanted to. But I don't. LOL!