[bcowen]

I figure when I am listening to music, that is good as it going to get, and enjoy.

We can talk about tubes, break-in, testers, amps, 'phones, listening acuity, opinions, NOS versus new, @Ripper2860 's feigned sexual prowess, and on and on and on, but at the end of the day what you just said is ALL that matters. If you enjoy what you're listening to, the rest is meaningless and irrelevant. Just my opinion so take it FWIW...most everyone knows I don't have much of an opinion about anything.

 

[Paladin79]

IMO, Fotons are one of the best for this test. In my experience, they go through some quite audible changes as they break-in. More so than most any other tube I've tried, and more so than I can possibly attribute to just mood, environment, incoming AC quality, etc. And nothing else has changed in the system during the break-in periods and changes I've heard.

I'll send you a pair of tested but otherwise unused '53's. Pretty sure I have a pair that haven't had any time put on therm. If not, I know I have 51's and 52's that are tested but otherwise unused. Sonically, I can't discern any real difference between any of the ribbed plate versions that I have (51's - 55's), so a '52 should (logically) display the same behavior as a '53. One thing I HAVE found though (not with the Fotons but with the Melz) is that even though they pass all tests in the tester, there still may be a pin solder issue once stuck in the amp, evidenced by hum or a sputtering/static-ey type sound. The tester doesn't pick up on this, and maybe it's just that the wire is making contact when inserted in the tester socket but by the time the tube gets jostled around between the tester and the amp that pin (or pins) lose contact. So you *may* need to reflow the solder in these even though they tested fine....if that makes any sense.

On the same note, I hear very little difference in Frankentubes from totally new to several hundred hours of use. Seems they improve a little (smoother, less peaky) after 10-15 hours of play time, but the changes are pretty minor and I *could* attribute that to conditions external to the tube rather than the tube itself if I wanted to. But I don't. LOL!

As long as you do not mind me replacing the pin solder on the Fotons. I want to eliminate the chance that the solder is any kind of an issue. I prefer to do that rather than re-flow very old solder. I can get a high percentage of the old stuff out. I like everything to be as equal as possible. I trust my friends hearing more than I do my own, past the age of 50 we are lucky to hear much beyond 15,000 hertz on a good day.

 

[Paladin79]

We can talk about tubes, break-in, testers, amps, 'phones, listening acuity, opinions, NOS versus new, @Ripper2860 's feigned sexual prowess, and on and on and on, but at the end of the day what you just said is ALL that matters. If you enjoy what you're listening to, the rest is meaningless and irrelevant. Just my opinion so take it FWIW...most everyone knows I don't have much of an opinion about anything.

Through the years I have heard all kinds of things including being able to hear a difference between two pieces of identical Belden wire. Same length, same connectors, all soldered by the same person. I set up a test, and amazingly enough he could hear the difference!!!! 50% of the time, after I ran enough tests to get him to that mark. It is hard enough to do this using headphone wire of different makes and types and I only found one person who could do that with any consistency whatsoever.

If a difference is that noticeable on Foton tubes I should be able to measure it. I can lay several tracks down right next to each other from 10hertz to say 20k hertz and look for any variance in amplitude or duration. I have done this before, it took a while to set up but once done it was an easy way to match tubes for friends for the Schiit Coaster amp.

 

[Robert Padgett]

I cannot believe it or not as my own knowledge about physics and chemistry of the vacuum tube is insufficient. From my own experience in epistemology and scientific methods, I can only guess what is plausible. The issue at hand is not deep science. When I read the text I have posted from Wiki, it makes sense to me in the context that we have been discussing. I do not see how it is fuzzy, not even in the sense of logic (Lotfi Zadeh). I would appreciate a simple explanation why you believe it does not make sense, based on your knowledge, i.e. a straightforward explanation why my supposition, based on the quote from Wiki, supported by 5 references, is wrong, rather than an unsubstantiated dismissal. I promise to try hard to overcome my ignorance to understand it.

It is my opinion, as a Music Listener first, and a person concerned with measurements and comparisons, way further down the list, what comes out of the transducers is the most important factor.
Whether a village of tiny elves or an electrolytic device is the process that a signal goes through to get to the transducers is of little importance to me. I am not knowledgeable to argue, nor would I be easily convinced, if either side of the argument involves the need to understand esoteric aspects of the process.

Like the discussions of coffee on another thread brought forth several differing views, I deduced what works for me, and am enjoying the result. Could a better cup of coffee be possible--sure. Is the cup I am making with a hand-grinder from locally roasted beans better than Walmart $5.00/big can pre-ground, no doubt.

When I tell the Audacious player to let me listen to a recording of Solti or Karajan, it is only the Music from the transducers that matters, and I have a profound opinion about that. For everyone else, Your Mileage May Vary.

And now for a subject totally unrelated to audio, but seemingly apropos to this discussion is "set and setting". Both Timothy Leary and Terrence McKenna, in the discussion of hallucinogenic substances, emphasize both "Set and Setting" as being the critical factor whether the subject has a pleasant experience during the "trip" or a "bad trip" with all other factors being equal.

Perception is affected by both set and setting, altered perception equally so.
If you start your listening experience, still stewing about a jack-ass cutting you off in traffic, versus coming home in a copacetic mood, content and ready to listen--the perception of the music will be different.
If the angry listener has Imagined Dragons, while the contented listener floats away with the second movement to a blissful state--does the age of the tube really matter?

 

[Ripper2860]

As long as you do not mind me replacing the pin solder on the Fotons. I want to eliminate the chance that the solder is any kind of an issue. I prefer to do that rather than re-flow very old solder. I can get a high percentage of the old stuff out. I like everything to be as equal as possible. I trust my friends hearing more than I do my own, past the age of 50 we are lucky to hear much beyond 15,000 hertz on a good day.

Don't forget about tube fondle time and its affect on the sound. Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.

 

[Robert Padgett]

Don't forget about tube fondle time and its effect on the sound. Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.

And the "anticipation bias" accorded a tube, or tubes, based upon the structure, the proper mica design, the condition of the ink which imprinted the tube, and the consensus of two or more who have heard a HUGE difference in sound quality between two tubes within a class (6SN7/6H8C).

 

[Paladin79]

Don't forget about tube fondle time and its affect on the sound. Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.

On the 6sn7 challenge he will not be able to get to the tubes whatsoever so he may test them more quickly than he originally thought. Some of the bases said cccp right on them, or were metal and had four indentations, so all he will see is gold pins and red tube bases.

 

[bcowen]

As long as you do not mind me replacing the pin solder on the Fotons. I want to eliminate the chance that the solder is any kind of an issue. I prefer to do that rather than re-flow very old solder. I can get a high percentage of the old stuff out. I like everything to be as equal as possible. I trust my friends hearing more than I do my own, past the age of 50 we are lucky to hear much beyond 15,000 hertz on a good day.

I don't mind at all if you replace the solder. Your soldering skills are likely light years ahead of mine. Now the bigger question: do you want the regular '53's or the '53's I had Cryo treated?
And just as a point of clarification, I can hear to 15,206 Hz, even on a regular day. Unless it's raining. Of course, I'm only 25 so that may have some effect.

 

[bcowen]

Don't forget about tube fondle time and its affect on the sound. Perhaps @bcowen could document his fondling regimen and propose a testing protocol to determine if there is a sonic benefit or merely psychological -- the result of bonding between man and tube.

I only fondle my Frankentubes. How many times do I have to tell you that?

 

[bcowen]

And the "anticipation bias" accorded a tube, or tubes, based upon the structure, the proper mica design, the condition of the ink which imprinted the tube, and the consensus of two or more who have heard a HUGE difference in sound quality between two tubes within a class (6SN7/6H8C).

Nobody ever said anything about actually listening to these tubes. Man, you're making this more and more difficult.

 

[bcowen]

If the angry listener has Imagined Dragons, while the contented listener floats away with the second movement to a blissful state--does the age of the tube really matter?

Yes.

I'll have to defer to @Ripper2860 on the hallucinogenic thing as his daily experience will have far more validity as a discussion point.

 

[Ripper2860]

On the 6sn7 challenge he will not be able to get to the tubes whatsoever so he may test them more quickly than he originally thought. Some of the bases said cccp right on them, or were metal and had four indentations, so all he will see is gold pins and red tube bases.

I meant for when you perform your extensive testing on the NOS Foton he will be sending you. After-all, you must be faithful the process in its entirety. Remember, no matter how distasteful -- it's all for SCIENCE!!

 

[Robert Padgett]

Nobody ever said anything about actually listening to these tubes. Man, you're making this more and more difficult.

"You are Correct, Sir!" -- Ed McMahon, mid 20th century Second Banana

The reason why tube type is such a low priority on my selection process checklist is simply stated "Three 6SN7 tubes, Test Good" and free shipping with $3 price. This was a cute group including an outstanding short bottle Chrome Dome, a Motorola with a center post not quite glued on, and a Tung Sol dated 1957, in a short bottle which had identical internals to another round mica Tung Sol in a tall bottle. The Chrome Dome has Bass Slam, the short Tung matched with its bigger brother as an homage to the DeVito-Arnold film, "Twins". The Motorola glows nice and sounds good. The other two were Tall Tung Sol with similar internals. Six tubes, $22 in total, all sound good, all sound different on the $149 Schiit Vali 2, but none of them hold a flickering flame of Liberty to the unmarked tube which has the internals of a Melz 1578, with funky thin pins. When properly inserted--hum free, by modification of the adapter female parts with the point of a sharp scissor as per the suggestion of @Ripper2860...

Yes.

I'll have to defer to @Ripper2860 on the hallucinogenic thing as his daily experience will have far more validity as a discussion point.

I was attempting Humor playing upon the popular musical group Imagine Dragons (which BTW really thump on the Advents, and makes watching the Subwoofer a wonderful diversion) The tie-dye speaker clothes look like they are breathing, and that is on just Coffee...

 

[Robert Padgett]

I meant for when you perform your extensive testing on the NOS Foton he will be sending you to test/measure. After all, you must be faithful to the process in its entirety. Remember -- it's all for SCIENCE!!

She Blinded me with...

 

[bcowen]

...by modification of the adapter female parts with the point of a sharp scissor as per the suggestion of @Ripper2860...

Scissors? SCISSORS? My god man, get some proper tools for re-tensioning socket contacts. Scissors? I'm horrified, shocked, and need to swipe some of @Ripper2860 's hallucinogens before I go nuts here. Scissors? Argh!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKYRM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1