[Ichinichi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif some links with useful information in them for any reasonable minded readers of this unfortunate thread. http://www.avforums.com/forums/archi.../t-161160.html (scroll down to the post by crocodile jd) http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/sennheiser_hd600.htm (the whole article but esp later down in the comparison section) http://stereophile.com/headphones/408/ (sterophile review/comparison of hd580 and hd600) http://www.headphone.com/products/he...ser-hd-600.php (description of hd600 from headroom) http://www.onhifi.com/product/sennheiser_hd600.htm (another review of hd600 noting it's build and sound differences from hd580) http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...ht=hd580+hd600 (extolling the hd600)

thank you.

ok, all these references are really old, but nonetheless:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/sennheiser_hd600.htm (the whole article but esp later down in the comparison section)
he feels they're quite even at stock. i've read the whole article. he clearly states that the 600s are not a clear slam-dunk over the stock 580s. not really supportive of the notion that the 600s are a priori better than 580 even at stock!

at http://www.avforums.com/forums/archi.../t-161160.html (scroll down to the post by crocodile jd) crocodile jd says "from what I've read, the 580s will be very close to the 600s, they use exactly the same drivers so if you are happy with the 600s, then you will probably be happy with the 580s". again, not really supportive of the notion that the 600s are better than 580s at stock?? he does make mention of how he prefers the sound of the 600s over the 590s...

hmmm, http://stereophile.com/headphones/408/ (sterophile review/comparison of hd580 and hd600) is not as clear. he seems only to communicate that he lauds the new flagship to sennheiser's line. did i miss anything?

http://www.headphone.com/products/he...ser-hd-600.php (description of hd600 from headroom) is interesting because it makes mention of carbon fiber headbands. of course, the 650s came out sometime 2004ish? and the write-up also makes mention of those as well - meaning that the write-up was at least edited in 2004 sometime. now, there was much early speculation that there was carbon fiber on the 600s, but later on, with more and more owners scratching their cans, it was revealed that it was naught more than paint over the same plastic piece used in the 580s. no where do i see any mention of 600s being by their nature better than 580s at stock...

on http://www.onhifi.com/product/sennheiser_hd600.htm (another review of hd600 noting it's build and sound differences from hd580) explicitly states that the "600 is built to a 1dB tolerance as opposed to the 580's 3dB". objectively, i would consider the 600s quantitatively better than the 580s in this respect. however, the article (dated 2001!) makes mention of how headphone amps are necessary and how that's not all to common (not anymore!!) and how their 2dB tolerance difference is only really perceptible on really high end systems! sort of what the stereophile review mentions on page 2 of their review.

finally, http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...ht=hd580+hd600 (extolling the hd600) is a two page thread with two long posts and on "x3" about how the respective posters preferred the stock 600s over the 580mods. however, note that both had cardas cables in their possession, an upgrade that's NOT in beginners' plans. regardless, when further questioned for quantitative features in hopes of teasing out a quantitative superiority of 600s over 580mod, there was no response. all i saw were a large group of people who loved the 580mod over the 600, who said 650 was the next logical step over the 580mod, not the 600.

one thing i did learn though, that i hope even vcoheda can agree with, if for some reason you have a nicely jacked up system and headphones are all you're looking for, plus you've already got $400 cables in hand, then get the 600s, because then, at that point, you'd be doing your system a disservice to not take advantage of the 2dB tolerance difference offered by the 600...but then, why not just get the 650?? even the head-fi thread you posted last attests to the opinion that in terms of a good buy, either stick with 580mod or jump on 650.

i've read every single one of your references and have shared what i've learned from them. hows that for reasonable?

where's your response to this thread, dated much later than the early articles you cite above, at a point in time where the "carbon fiber" myth has been debunked?

or what about this entire thread, dated this month(!), discussing how the 580s are a better buy than the 600s?

let's be reasonable, shall we?

 

[sonic_rage]

edit

 

[jinp6301]

ugh whatever, this is probably my last post in this matter, and yes, I read your EDU thread so I can be fully aware of the situation

Ichinichi, I think this is the thing that you dont understand. I am allowed to say in any thread here that (for example) Bose is the best headphones ever and all other headphones suck. That is a quantitative statement as you call it and since this can be "measured" by other "prominent" member's posts (as seen below), I guess I have a valid point no?

ex. (and I know these are joke posts, just trying to make a point)
Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi folks, I've heard so much about the unique characteristics of the Bose Triports and their unmatched performance as well as their exceptional build quality that I thought it would be great to start a thread to show just how deep our appreciation of Bose for creating these headphones goes. Many have considered their impact on the audio marketplace to be closely akin to the huge splash that went out when William Shatner and Michael Hassellhoff (oopsie, make that David Hasselhoff) first plopped into sight with their works displaying uniquely unmistakable intelligence and emotional depth. Now of course, there is a small fringe that likes to make disparaging remarks about these headphones which in my opinion represent some of the world's finest marketing efforts not to mention some of the most singular audio engineering ever to have graced the head of any person in search of that singular quality and cost consciousness that has become Bose's trademark signature in the audio world. (Yeah, I know, they don't have the stone cool good looks of the Jecklin Float, but nothing is perfect ). Anyway, if person's wishing to comment negatively on these headphones could please refrain from posting in this thread it would be appreciated! We're looking for some real feedback here to make up for the apparent attempt by Apple to sabotage the Triport by putting out mostly malfunctioning models in their stores. Remember we want to give folks a good idea of the experience which they will be in for after their decision to purchase these stunniingly unique works of the Bose Corporation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veniogenesis /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've owned the Bose Triports for two years now! They're simply the most wonderful headphones ever created by humankind. No wonder many people consider Bose to be the best audio speakers company in the world! These headphones are really worth what they cost. They provide the lushest sounds to ever come to my ears! I am really glad that I took the advice of my father's "audiophile" friend and went out and bought this headphone. Bose Triports are very comfortable as well. I wear mine almost 24/7! When I walk through the street or when I'm at school, people stop and stare in awe. "Bose! Damn, those must be sweet headphones!" they say. I just smile and nod at them in glory and glee. My ears been treated to the best of the best. These headphones work great in any setup. They're great right out of a MP3 player or out of your massive source+amp setup. Acoustic equalization techniques deliver the rich music that other headphones simply cannot deliver. Sennheiser headphones are known for their laid back approach. Grado headphones are known for their incomfortable style and hard hitting approach. Audio-Technicas deliver sub-par performance. Come on! Your $50,000 amp doesn't even make it sound better! Beyerdynamics are imbalanced. Some headphones have CRAZY bass. Others have weak bass. I mean, what's up with that? AKG Acoustics have this weird thing that the Bose is so much better at. The AKGs have a sweet mid-range, but the Triports have all of the ranges! Alessandro headphones are like Grados, so they're out. Automatically. Etymotics and Shures are canal phones. The fact that they're close to size with earbuds make them **** compared with the Bose Triports. Bose Triports delivers the same amount of performace that Staxs do, maybe even more, for just a fraction of the price! And you don't even need that expensive headphone amp. Who would want to buy Koss, Sharps, Philips? You could buy them for under a $100! How could anything that cheap be good? And then you have Sony. I mean. God. Sony? Heaphones? You might think they're good at the high end, but my God, I'm sorry, but their headphones in the $100 range are terrible! If they can't make inexpensive headphones good, how can they make expensive headphones good? Be true to yourself. Get the best of the best. Get the Bose Triports now. You won't be disappointed. [size=xx-small] [/size]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddball /img/forum/go_quote.gif All my cool high school friends think I'm a DJ when I wear the Triports! I've never been so popular, and the local middle school is asking me to do their Spring Dance next year. But the Triports make me feel sad because indeed, The Masses are not ready for the aural perfect these headphones bring me.

now go "prove" me wrong and tell me that bose sucks. no wait, you cant. This is audio, and you CANNOT PROVE SQ!!! It cannot be measured, not in frequency graphs, not in reviews, not in posts by prominent members, not in anything. We all have different ears and you nor anyone else can tell me what sounds good to me.

Quote:

now, jinp, a qualitative claim is not the same as a quantitative claim. qualitative claims are subjective whereas quantitative claims are built on factual and verifiable evidence.

ok I understand that, but as I stated before how can you have factual and verifiable evidence that something is a smarter buy then the other, especially in a field such as audio? This is a field of "in my opinion", "in my ears" and so many factors that we cannot take anything as fact.

Ok, I just read your edited post and I will say this one last time. Other people's views and opinions are not fact and they will never be. If a person thinks that the 580 modded is better then the stock 600s then good for him/her, but it doesnt really tell me that much about how I would like the 580s. We, as a forum, can only predict how much a person would like a certain piece of equipment. We dont have their ears so we cant "quantitatively" say that they'll like it. I hope everybody knows this in head-fi. No one or many opinions can tell you what you'll like. Its impossible.

thats all I'll say in this matter.

but to summarize,
1. you cannot prove anything in audio, especially with other peoples posts and opinions
2. opinions are not fact and using peoples reviews as fact to prove your point is wrong
3. peoples ears are not all the same and some people can tell the difference between the types of batteries used in a portable amp and some people cant tell the difference between an orpheus and a triport

 

[KenW]

To the OP.....only you can decide which of the two represents the better value .....to you. If you can afford it, try and pick up a pair of each. Evaluate them in your system and decide which represents the better value....for you. Keep that one and sell the other. Both cans are in demand and can be easily sold for little or no loss if you buy well to begin with. There's no right or wrong answer here. It's all quite subjective and a matter of personal taste/opinion. Good luck.

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenW /img/forum/go_quote.gif To the OP.....only you can decide which of the two represents the better value .....to you. If you can afford it, try and pick up a pair of each. Evaluate them in your system and decide which represents the better value....for you. Keep that one and sell the other. Both cans are in demand and can be easily sold for little or no loss if you buy well to begin with. There's no right or wrong answer here. It's all quite subjective and a matter of personal taste/opinion. Good luck.

what I've been saying all along!

 

[souperman]

i'm sure the OP abandoned this thread a long time ago. i don't even think he remembers what his question was

 

[CareyB]

The OP has been keeping track of this thread and is being quite entertained by what my innocent little side question of "Are the 600s really worth $100 more than the 580s?" has created.

Looks to me that neither side will ever change their mind and should just agree to disagree but then they would have to agree on something and that isn't going to happen

 

[Ichinichi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ugh whatever, this is probably my last post in this matter, and yes, I read your EDU thread so I can be fully aware of the situation Ichinichi, I think this is the thing that you dont understand. I am allowed to say in any thread here that (for example) Bose is the best headphones ever and all other headphones suck. That is a quantitative statement as you call it and since this can be "measured" by other "prominent" member's posts (as seen below), I guess I have a valid point no?

um, that's a qualitative point, jinp. and your examples are all qualitative statements. i told you its important to understand the difference! and my initial tiff with vcoheda was not about SQ! you've really gotta slow down your reading (which i appreciate)!

all i said was that the 580s are worthwhile buying and modding and that many others felt the same. vcoheda is the very person who called me out on this assertion, so i gave him links! that's all.

this has never been about the SQ you seem so fixated on. it has been about how vcoheda has said many times that "the hd600 is a better headphone than the hd580". this is called an assertion, not an opinion. and assertions are quantitative in that their supporting evidence are tangible, such as driver matching accuracy, bale material and cost - vcoheda implicitly understands this as evidenced by his initial post here; he made an assertion and presented tangible, quantifiable reasons in support of his assertion.

look at each of his opening evidences: they're all independent of the who is listening to the cans! all i've done is challenge him on each of these tangible, quantifiable claims, whether they're even true and if true, whether they really add over $100 more in value over a 580mod can. i've never attacked his right to a personal opinion, of which you are so committed to uphold.

i've attacked this "Truth" he is posting that the hd600 is by its nature, before unpacking it, before listening to it, before all else (i.e. a priori) a better headphone than a modded 580. thats all. see how its not a matter of personal opinion now?

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CareyB /img/forum/go_quote.gif The OP has been keeping track of this thread and is being quite entertained by what my innocent little side question of "Are the 600s really worth $100 more than the 580s?" has created. Looks to me that neither side will ever change their mind and should just agree to disagree but then they would have to agree on something and that isn't going to happen

ha yea. Well, I agree with "the opposition" (heh heh heh) that IMO the 580s are probably a better buy for you but I cant tell you if you think the 600s are worth $100 more then the 580s. Its your ears and I cant tell if you'll like the 600s more.

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichinichi /img/forum/go_quote.gif um, that's a qualitative point, jinp. and your examples are all qualitative statements. i told you its important to understand the difference! and my initial tiff with vcoheda was not about SQ! you've really gotta slow down your reading (which i appreciate)! all i said was that the 580s are worthwhile buying and modding and that many others felt the same. vcoheda is the very person who called me out on this assertion, so i gave him links! that's all. this has never been about the SQ you seem so fixated on. it has been about how vcoheda has said many times that "the hd600 is a better headphone than the hd580". this is called an assertion, not an opinion. and assertions are quantitative in that their supporting evidence are tangible, such as driver matching accuracy, bale material and cost - vcoheda implicitly understands this as evidenced by his initial post here; he made an assertion and presented tangible, quantifiable reasons in support of his assertion. look at each of his opening evidences: they're all independent of the who is listening to the cans! all i've done is challenge him on each of these tangible, quantifiable claims, whether they're even true and if true, whether they really add over $100 more in value over a 580mod can. i've never attacked his right to a personal opinion, of which you are so committed to uphold. i've attacked this "Truth" he is posting that the hd600 is by its nature, before unpacking it, before listening to it, before all else (i.e. a priori) a better headphone than a modded 580. thats all. see how its not a matter of personal opinion now?

I understand but a better headphone means better SQ generally no?

but yea, we should really stop this argument, since we both seem to understand each other and this isint helping the OP (except for entertainment value) and we're basically stealing his/her's thread.

and I guess i was lying when I said a couple of posts ago that I wouldnt post anymore

 

[souperman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand but a better headphone means better SQ generally no? but yea, we should really stop this argument, since we both seem to understand each other and this isint helping the OP (except for entertainment value) and we're basically stealing his/her's thread. and I guess i was lying when I said a couple of posts ago that I wouldnt post anymore

i don't know if i can ever trust any more of your posts...

 

[Ichinichi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand but a better headphone means better SQ generally no?

not the way vcoheda was supporting his statement!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif but yea, we should really stop this argument, since we both seem to understand each other and this isint helping the OP (except for entertainment value) and we're basically stealing his/her's thread. and I guess i was lying when I said a couple of posts ago that I wouldnt post anymore

i'm sort of glad that i'm in this, vcoheda has given everyone some very good (albeit, dated) references and i've given the curious a lot of material to read over as well...the many discussions about 580/600 and their modding have "come out of the woodwork", so to speak.

i've taken the time to read his (again, dated) citations in full, i'm interested to see what he has to say about mine.

i keep mentioning that his citations are dated because, you know, there is always a lot of hype flying around new flagship launches and reviewers on review sites are often caught up to some degree, especially back in 2001 when independent online reviewers weren't recognized as a viable marketing channel as much as they are now. but my citations are from a time after 650 superseded the 600s and the dust had settled on the 600s. this means that suddenly there is talk of aluminum wrap over plastic instead of carbon fiber! so i take older reviews with this fact in mind.

the SQ opinions in those reviews still stand, of course, but again, it seems as though the consensus from vcoheda's links was that, so long as the 600 was a flagship, aimed at those with high-end systems, it was a priori the better choice (there's nothing better for your high-end system). but now, people like myself and the OP aren't sitting there with $1500 worth of equipment and $400 worth of cables wondering, "now what should i get"? we're sitting here with next to nothing, scratching our heads wondering, "hmm, how do i learn and get the most enjoyment out of this hobby without committing too much cash?"

however, i'm more than happy we've resolved this matter and that we understand one another. interestingly, i've set my sights on balanced 650s because of vcoheda's (very) brief post and others in the 650 appreciation thread (which is full of qualitative opinions btw

).

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CareyB /img/forum/go_quote.gif The OP has been keeping track of this thread and is being quite entertained by what my innocent little side question of "Are the 600s really worth $100 more than the 580s?" has created.

I'll just answer that question with a simple answer: No, the HD600s are not worth an extra $100 from the 580s. They sound way more like the 580s then the 650s do. There's just subtle differences in their SQ. FWIW, I would save the money and get the 580 to make sure you have a good amp.

 

[BIG POPPA]

DON'T THE 580 AND THE 600 HAVE THE SAME DRIVER????? HOW COULD THE 600 BE BETTER??? JUST DIFFERENT IMO

 

[souperman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif DON'T THE 580 AND THE 600 HAVE THE SAME DRIVER????? HOW COULD THE 600 BE BETTER??? JUST DIFFERENT IMO

wow. did you read a single post made during the debate? or did you just want to contribute poorly to the argument. and your statement contradicts itself. you say that they have the same driver, but they are just different. how does that make any sense? i'm sorry, i didn't want to be rude, but seriously. come on.