[ExTubeGamer]

These Dongles with DAC, I don't think they are used when Internal DAC already done the work. They are more like USB C to 3.5mm Connector actually. Are you trying to say if USB C Dongle is attached, it will only be sued and internal DAC will be ignored? Why? Who will tell internal programme to ignore internal DAC and use external one?

Yes the internal DAC will be ignored. I use an app that takes full control of the USB-C Dongle. This app is called USB audio player pro.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

If internal DAC is not present then how you will hear music from Phone? How do you know it is not there? It is always there. Only difference can be different DAC Chip. And consider it it there, why it will be Bypassed?

With an external DAC of course ... either by USB, lightning, wifi, bluetooth

For someone so opinionated about this topic, with strong views, it does seem like you dont understand the technology all that well? Just as a computer would do with a USB DAC, or soundcard/recording interface, the transport/client asks for a service and depending on your settings in the OS, and audio layer/drivers, suitable, present and preferred hardware will respond to that need, advertise its capabilities and a connection is established. then a series of buffers, and -> DAC.

It is bypassed, because that is what you have told it to do in your settings. a device with superior spec and capability that the internal dac (*if present) is unable to provide is connected. That might be sample rate, file type, or other technical preference, even hardware EQ and additionally better headphone amplification if a headphone amp is also integrated.

Some phones are even USBC only, no headphone output and USBC does not have a way of connecting legacy analogue devices like most previous docking connectors do. there is no point to have an internal DAC in your phone then, so of course there is none. You must—at that point—use an external dac.

*Dongle, bluetooth headsets, wifi, or USB devices will take over what is typically a PCM to analogue conversion—when talking phones—but DoP is possible, perhaps even native DSD. I'm unaware of any DAPs or phones that truly process DSD natively, perhaps one of the high end AKM dacs, but most will convert to PCM, or a hybrid sort of multibit DSD internally. If any form of digital volume control or processing is done, it will be with more than 1bit, so you would require an analogue volume control, or a digitally controlled analogue volume control, or convert to multibit, perform volume control, then back to 1bit PWM.

But I digress ... the number of phones that have dedicated dacs is fairly small these days. Some phones will have some sort of hardware codec built into the SoC. Cirrus and ESS chips dominate the dedicated mobile dac and audio SoC market, but if you dont have an analogue connection to the external world, you dont need a DAC. you are relying on your customer using wireless, or a dongle dac, the most elementary—like the tiny apple headphone adapter—has a dac inside.

 

[sander99]

yes, they are indeed used, because the internal dac (not always present) is bypassed when the device is identified as containing a DAC and the USB or lightning is treated as USB and the PCM information is transmitted digitally over that connection.

If internal DAC is not present then how you will hear music from Phone? How do you know it is not there? It is always there. Only difference can be different DAC Chip. And consider it it there, why it will be Bypassed?

I think you misunderstood @Inspector Gadget, he meant that if the external device (dongle or whatever) contains a DAC then the phone's internal DAC is (or can be) bypassed. And as he explained in his last post, devices can negotiate via USB what is going to happen based on capabilities and settings.

[Edit: sorry I see he also said the phone's DAC is not always present, but never mind, that was not really the heart of the discussion anyway.]

 

[Roseval]

devices can negotiate via USB

Correct, that is called device enumeration, part of the USB specs
The moment you make a connection the host will ask the slave what its capabilities are.
If I plug my Benchmark DAC1 into my phone, it will report being a 24 bit 44/48/88/96 DAC
https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Android/Android_USB.htm

 

[Inspector Gadget]

yes @sander99 I thought I had clarified that in an edit, but I may have made it clear as mud . it's only very recently that we've started to see phones that wont contain a DAC (at least not for converting audio).

@Roseval indeed, specifically for USB thats the language you would use. I may not have been as concise, as i was talking more generally digital connectivity, so thanks for that

 

[FatihEnes]

With an external DAC of course ... either by USB, lightning, wifi, bluetooth

For someone so opinionated about this topic, with strong views, it does seem like you dont understand the technology all that well? Just as a computer would do with a USB DAC, or soundcard/recording interface, the transport/client asks for a service and depending on your settings in the OS, and audio layer/drivers, suitable, present and preferred hardware will respond to that need, advertise its capabilities and a connection is established. then a series of buffers, and -> DAC.

It is bypassed, because that is what you have told it to do in your settings. a device with superior spec and capability that the internal dac (*if present) is unable to provide is connected. That might be sample rate, file type, or other technical preference, even hardware EQ and additionally better headphone amplification if a headphone amp is also integrated.

Some phones are even USBC only, no headphone output and USBC does not have a way of connecting legacy analogue devices like most previous docking connectors do. there is no point to have an internal DAC in your phone then, so of course there is none. You must—at that point—use an external dac.

*Dongle, bluetooth headsets, wifi, or USB devices will take over what is typically a PCM to analogue conversion—when talking phones—but DoP is possible, perhaps even native DSD. I'm unaware of any DAPs or phones that truly process DSD natively, perhaps one of the high end AKM dacs, but most will convert to PCM, or a hybrid sort of multibit DSD internally. If any form of digital volume control or processing is done, it will be with more than 1bit, so you would require an analogue volume control, or a digitally controlled analogue volume control, or convert to multibit, perform volume control, then back to 1bit PWM.

But I digress ... the number of phones that have dedicated dacs is fairly small these days. Some phones will have some sort of hardware codec built into the SoC. Cirrus and ESS chips dominate the dedicated mobile dac and audio SoC market, but if you dont have an analogue connection to the external world, you dont need a DAC. you are relying on your customer using wireless, or a dongle dac, the most elementary—like the tiny apple headphone adapter—has a dac inside.

Every phone has an internal DAC even if the phone don’t have a jack. Otherwise you couldn’t here anything from the speakers.

I wouldn't go to much trouble to explain everything to him, though. I have already written privately with him. He simply believes in his theory without having any idea about it.

I don't know if it's his ignorance or he just doesn't want to get educated.
If you check his past replies in other topics, you can see, that many others tried to explain him in a very basic way.

He also ignores all counter-questions and can't explain how his theory should work.
He always replies with the same false answers.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

also, I thought I would have a read of the USBC spec to double check if there is an audio adapter mode still available. There is, so its a matter of whether the particular phone chooses to still utilize that.

Audio Adapter Accessory Mode[edit]​

A device with a USB-C port may support analog headsets through an audio adapter with a 3.5 mm jack, providing four standard analog audio connections (Left, Right, Microphone, and Ground). The audio adapter may optionally include a USB-C charge-through port to allow 500 mA device charging. The engineering specification states that an analog headset shall not use a USB-C plug instead of a 3.5 mm plug. In other words, headsets with a USB-C plug should always support digital audio (and optionally the accessory mode).[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Audio_Adapter_Accessory_Mode

Every phone has an internal DAC even if the phone don’t have a jack. Otherwise you couldn’t here anything from the speakers.

I wouldn't go to much trouble to explain everything to him, though. I have already written privately with him. He simply believes in his theory without having any idea about it.

I don't know if it's his ignorance or he just doesn't want to get educated.
If you check his past replies in other topics, you can see, that many others tried to explain him in a very basic way.

He also ignores all counter-questions and can't explain how his theory should work.
He always replies with the same false answers.

ha!! yes of course, I wasnt thinking/talking absolute, just meaning for headphone and more general audio connectivity. there will be quite a number of dacs and adcs in any phone, for various purposes, audio and non-audio. The speaker is unlikely to be driven by a dedicated dac chip though, more likely one integrated into the front end of a small class d amplifier. yeah this is my first interaction with him and that is fairly obvious.

 

[Leporello]

If space is the real concern as to why Smart Phones are removing the 3.5 mm headphone jack, why did the mini headphone jack disappear on phones?
Why not bring back the mini?

You've gotten tricked into thinking that space was the reason why the 3.5mm headphone jack was removed, it WASN'T the reason why… the reason is far more plain and simple: it's because of GREED and MONEY.

Terrible, just terrible, I hear you!

Forget about famine, climate change and covid-19! Bring back the headphone jack (you can sing this to the tune of Steely Dan's "Boston Rag")!

 

[bigshot]

I used to care, but bluetooth is so much more convenient. I only use my wired headphones on my main stereo and Oculus Quest now.

 

[theaudiologist1]

I used to care, but bluetooth is so much more convenient. I only use my wired headphones on my main stereo and Oculus Quest now.

Look up bluetooth security and privacy risks.

 

[bigshot]

I don't care if my neighbors listen in on my Beethoven.

 

[MelodyMood]

I don't care if my neighbours listen in on my Beethoven.

Who told you that if your Bluetooth is hacked, someone will only be able to listen to the music you listen?
You also think it is convenient? That is the false feeling forced into people by these companies that BT is convenient. You will have one more device to keep charging and keep it charged or else you won't be able to listen to music or even talk to the people if it is for long hours.

Every phone has an internal DAC even if the phone don’t have a jack. Otherwise you couldn’t here anything from the speakers.

I wouldn't go to much trouble to explain everything to him, though. I have already written privately with him. He simply believes in his theory without having any idea about it.

I don't know if it's his ignorance or he just doesn't want to get educated.
If you check his past replies in other topics, you can see, that many others tried to explain him in a very basic way.

He also ignores all counter-questions and can't explain how his theory should work.
He always replies with the same false answers.

That is what I have been saying. Phone has Internal DAC so the reason that not enough space or blah blah is not right to remove the headphone jack. It is only for money and sell BT and Dongles. Otherwise these companies could simply start using better DAC in their phone and that is all. They are forcing people to use which is not convenient, not good, poor quality and incur additional money too. When Sound is Analog, why you need additional DAC to covert it into Analog. Just use better DAC in Phone and that is all. Even more cost effective for companies but they come up with crony capitalism and scam called BT and Dongle and USB-C to 3.5mm Connectors.

 

[bigshot]

Who told you that if your Bluetooth is hacked, someone will only be able to listen to the music you listen?
You also think it is convenient?

Music is what I generally put through bluetooth.

All I have to carry is my phone and a little pillbox sized AirPods Pro case. My phone never runs out of battery. The AirPods go for hours and hours, but if they run out, I just put them in their case for a half hour and they're charged again. When I go to sleep, I put the phone and AirPods on a charging pad on my bedstand and they're fully charged when I wake up. I don't know how much more convenient they could be.

What I don't have is headphones that don't fit in my shirt pocket, and wires connecting my ears to my phone. Wired is fine for at home sitting on the couch, but on the go, I would much rather be compact and wireless.

I have a wireless speaker system that fits in a little pouch too. It has a TB of music, decent little battery operated speakers and a few battery packs to keep everything, including my phone going for a weekend without charging.

 

[FatihEnes]

That is what I have been saying. Phone has Internal DAC so the reason that not enough space or blah blah is not right to remove the headphone jack. It is only for money and sell BT and Dongles. Otherwise these companies could simply start using better DAC in their phone and that is all. They are forcing people to use which is not convenient, not good, poor quality and incur additional money too. When Sound is Analog, why you need additional DAC to covert it into Analog. Just use better DAC in Phone and that is all. Even more cost effective for companies but they come up with crony capitalism and scam called BT and Dongle and USB-C to 3.5mm Connectors.

Because most of the people can’t even tell the difference between AAC and CD quality, so why putting a good DAC in it?!
Apple did a move here, so other companies build more Bluetooth headphones, because it’s more practical.
They included the dongle for many years and this is more expansive compared to a DAC chip ..
The majority of the people are happy with their Bluetooth headphones and don’t want wired ones!

We can discuss and argue about this, sure. The other technical aspects you mentioned, like that dongles are fake and scam, are just BS.

 

[bigshot]

Despite audiophile claims, I don't think anyone can tell the difference between high data rate AAC and lossless. The Apple dongle is as tiny as a regular mini headphone plug, it sounds the same as an expensive bulky DAC and it costs $8. That isn't costly or inconvenient.

These arguments are obsolete. They may have been true five years ago when headphone jacks started disappearing, but it's different now.