USB-C Sucks. 3.5mm Is Real Sound!!!
Sep 13, 2021 at 11:19 PM Post #31 of 303

MelodyMood

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I think you misunderstood @Inspector Gadget, he meant that if the external device (dongle or whatever) contains a DAC then the phone's internal DAC is (or can be) bypassed. And as he explained in his last post, devices can negotiate via USB what is going to happen based on capabilities and settings.

[Edit: sorry I see he also said the phone's DAC is not always present, but never mind, that was not really the heart of the discussion anyway.]

Correct, that is called device enumeration, part of the USB specs
The moment you make a connection the host will ask the slave what its capabilities are.
If I plug my Benchmark DAC1 into my phone, it will report being a 24 bit 44/48/88/96 DAC
https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Android/Android_USB.htm

@sander99 and @Roseval - If I have an MP3 file which has 16 bit sound at 320 kbps and 44100 Hz. How it will be played differently with external DAC which supports 32 bit at 384 Khz. I do not think it will play any different.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 11:23 PM Post #32 of 303

bigshot

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It shouldn't sound audibly different. A DAC should do what a DAC is supposed to do.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 11:31 PM Post #33 of 303

MelodyMood

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Because most of the people can’t even tell the difference between AAC and CD quality, so why putting a good DAC in it?!
Apple did a move here, so other companies build more Bluetooth headphones, because it’s more practical.
They included the dongle for many years and this is more expansive compared to a DAC chip ..
The majority of the people are happy with their Bluetooth headphones and don’t want wired ones!

We can discuss and argue about this, sure. The other technical aspects you mentioned, like that dongles are fake and scam, are just BS.
It is not the case. People are not using BT because it is practical. They are using because they were forced to do that and now not caring much to go back to better think which is Wired. Not because they are happy but because they are too lazy to change it again. BT is there for 20+ years, why people did not start using it earlier? So to increase sell, companies decided to do this malpractice and removed the 3.5mm Jack itself so people will have no chance but to use BT or use these Dongles and connectors if they still want to use Wired headphones. in an case, these companies will make profit by selling them directly or indirectly through other companies who make these Dongles.

They are all connected only. I hope you know that on paper, Samsung and Apple are competitor, but it is Samsung which provides some Chip and some more components to Apple and Apple fully rely on Samsung for them.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 11:36 PM Post #34 of 303

FatihEnes

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Despite audiophile claims, I don't think anyone can tell the difference between high data rate AAC and lossless. The Apple dongle is as tiny as a regular mini headphone plug, it sounds the same as an expensive bulky DAC and it costs $8. That isn't costly or inconvenient.

These arguments are obsolete. They may have been true five years ago when headphone jacks started disappearing, but it's different now.

True.
I did an abx test a while ago and got 60% in the first try, 45% second and 80% in the third try.
Maybe you can hear a difference if you listen very carefully, but while casual listening, I definitely can’t.
Cd quality is more than enough.

Sometimes people argue more about technical things instead of enjoying the music ..

But these incorrect technical things mentioned here from MelodyMood are naive.

It is not the case. People are not using BT because it is practical. They are using because they were forced to do that and now not caring much to go back to better think which is Wired. Not because they are happy but because they are too lazy to change it again. BT is there for 20+ years, why people did not start using it earlier? So to increase sell, companies decided to do this malpractice and removed the 3.5mm Jack itself so people will have no chance but to use BT or use these Dongles and connectors if they still want to use Wired headphones. in an case, these companies will make profit by selling them directly or indirectly through other companies who make these Dongles.

They are all connected only. I hope you know that on paper, Samsung and Apple are competitor, but it is Samsung which provides some Chip and some more components to Apple and Apple fully rely on Samsung for them.

No one was or is forced, ever. The dongle was for several years included in the box and even headphones with a Lightning cable. If someone wants to use wired headphones, you can pick one up for 8$. The DAC in it is nearly identical with the one in the phone before.. people are starving in Africa and you are complaining about a 8$ dongle. You are not forced to buy Bluetooth headphones. If Apple wants to make money with Bluetooth headphones, let them do. That’s capitalism.

BTW, Samsung is dependent on Apple. They make money with every sold iPhone. Samsung isn’t the only company that makes displays and Chips.
 
Sep 14, 2021 at 12:25 AM Post #35 of 303

bigshot

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People are not using BT because it is practical. They are using because they were forced to do that and now not caring much to go back to better think which is Wired. Not because they are happy but because they are too lazy to change it again.

You don't read anyone else's posts do you? I just said that I prefer bluetooth because it is practical and I prefer it to wired.

I'm honestly not here to coddle your rant. I'm here to discuss. If you want to have a discussion, you can't just ignore what other people say. You have to read and absorb what they say and answer them.

By the way, the reason that people didn't use bluetooth as much in the early days was because the codecs weren't as advanced as they are now. When I first tested bluetooth, I decided not to use it because the sound quality wasn't as good as wired. With the new codecs, that problem has been solved. Bluetooth is completely transparent. It sounds the same as lossless via a wired connection.

I did an abx test a while ago and got 60% in the first try, 45% second and 80% in the third try.
Maybe you can hear a difference if you listen very carefully, but while casual listening, I definitely can’t.

I have tens of thousands of CDs. When I first started ripping to build a media server, I spent two weeks testing different codecs and data rates to establish what setting was completely transparent. I spent a lot of time and compared very carefully with the original CD. I arrived at AAC 256 VBR (the same setting the Apple Music store uses). It is absolutely perfect sound on my best equipment listening as carefully as I can. After ripping thousands and thousands of CDs and playing the files for over a decade, I haven't found one that artifacts at that setting. I've put together a listening tests with three codecs at three different data rates and no one I've shared the test with has been able to discern differences above AAC 192. I'm very confident that it is perfect for everyone.
 
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Sep 14, 2021 at 12:58 AM Post #36 of 303

Inspector Gadget

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@sander99 and @Roseval - If I have an MP3 file which has 16 bit sound at 320 kbps and 44100 Hz. How it will be played differently with external DAC which supports 32 bit at 384 Khz. I do not think it will play any different.
Well, practically, in general a phone will be using a programmable PLL for clock and/or at least ASRC and thus using a single master clock for all program material. If sent to an external dac *it may be played at the native samplerate, or upsampled to a multiple of that samplerate, subject to the chosen dacs internal OSF, as a separate matter.

*Due to having dual clocks, one for each family of sample rates 44.1 and 48x
 
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Sep 14, 2021 at 1:27 AM Post #37 of 303

MelodyMood

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No one was or is forced, ever. The dongle was for several years included in the box and even headphones with a Lightning cable. If someone wants to use wired headphones, you can pick one up for 8$. The DAC in it is nearly identical with the one in the phone before.. people are starving in Africa and you are complaining about a 8$ dongle. You are not forced to buy Bluetooth headphones. If Apple wants to make money with Bluetooth headphones, let them do. That’s capitalism.

BTW, Samsung is dependent on Apple. They make money with every sold iPhone. Samsung isn’t the only company that makes displays and Chips.
Brother. These companies removed one vital component so user is forced to use BT or Dongle. That is called forcing only. It is not the price which is the biggest concern, it is the inconvenience to use the dongle. The 3.5mm headset plug will keep coming out of the Dongle and user will spend time in fixing that or putting it back. or USB C side will come out from the phone. Or may be they will be broken too in few weeks of usages only. And especially in USB C only Phone, one will need to ensure that every earphones has Dongle and he is not forgetting it so need to have few dongles at least attached with the earphones.

You don't read anyone else's posts do you? I just said that I prefer bluetooth because it is practical and I prefer it to wired.

I'm honestly not here to coddle your rant. I'm here to discuss. If you want to have a discussion, you can't just ignore what other people say. You have to read and absorb what they say and answer them.

By the way, the reason that people didn't use bluetooth as much in the early days was because the codecs weren't as advanced as they are now. When I first tested bluetooth, I decided not to use it because the sound quality wasn't as good as wired. With the new codecs, that problem has been solved. Bluetooth is completely transparent. It sounds the same as lossless via a wired connection.
I am not sure how you find it practical. IN my view that is the most inconvenient thing. Bluetooth sound quality has no match of Wired headset. Did you see any professional Sound Recording is done on Bluetooth devices? Or any professional performance on BT? Why not? Because that will not give them quality they want.

And even if you place them in Charger case and they are always charged, ultimately you need to keep charging them. That is inconvenient thing actually.
 
Sep 14, 2021 at 2:01 AM Post #39 of 303

bigshot

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I am not sure how you find it practical. IN my view that is the most inconvenient thing. Did you see any professional Sound Recording is done on Bluetooth devices? Or any professional performance on BT? And even if you place them in Charger case and they are always charged, ultimately you need to keep charging them. That is inconvenient thing actually.

The last post was my shot across the bow. If you continue to not make any attempt to understand what I'm saying, I'll talk past you and you won't like it. This is the last time I answer your questions respectfully.

I am not sure how you find it practical.

I am happy to explain why it's practical.

When I leave the house, I have my iPhone and my AirPods Pros in my shirt pocket. The phone I am already carrying. The AirPods are smaller than a box of tictacs. If I want to listen to music, I just put the AirPods in my ear and they connect automatically. I have Apple Music and I can listen to just about any album I want. I say, "Siri, play Talking Heads" and the music starts. I don't need to fumble with plugging in a jack. I can even do this while I'm driving without my eyes leaving the road. In my car, I have a 3.5 mm jack to plug into the car stereo, but I don't use it. Not because I don't have the ability to plug my phone into the car, but because the damn jack shorted out from being plugged and unplugged so many times. If my phone's ports shorted out like that, I would be royally pissed. It also is much more convenient to have the phone sitting on the seat next to me without being tethered to it by my ears. If I want to stop listening, I just pull out the AirPods and the music stops playing and my phone goes to sleep. I toss the AirPods in the change well and they go to sleep too. When I reach my destination, I put the AirPods back in the case and they immediately start charging. If I had wired headphones, it would be much less convenient.

Bluetooth sound quality has no match of Wired headset.

That is not true. My iPhone uses AAC for Bluetooth which is completely transparent. You can do a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind comparison for yourself between lossless and AAC Bluetooth and I defy you to discern any difference. Back in the early days of Bluetooth, codecs were not transparent. That isn't the case any more.

Did you see any professional Sound Recording is done on Bluetooth devices?

I am a professional in the TV business. I've supervised recording sessions and mixes. Professionals use calibrated speakers to monitor sound in the studio and listen critically. They don't use headphones for that. The only time headphones are used, it is for playback in recording where they need to isolate the performer from the playback. Bluetooth would be perfectly fine for that. So would cheap beater headphones. But we aren't talking about working in a recording studio. We are talking about listening to commercially recorded music in the home and on the go. Bluetooth is perfectly suited for that. Just as good as wired lossless.

even if you place them in Charger case and they are always charged, ultimately you need to keep charging them

On the table next to my bed I have a charging pad. I set my AirPod case on it and it charges while I sleep. I have a mag safe charger for my phone, which just sticks to the back of the phone and charges it wirelessly. I don't even think about it. When I go to bed, I toss my wallet and keys on the table drop the AirPods on the pad and stick the magnet to the back of my phone. No plugging in lightning cables. No chance of wearing out the lightning port. When I wake up, everything is trickle charged and ready to go. I don't even think about charging it.

Since I got my iPhone, it's never been below 75% charged, even with heavy use. My AirPods go 4 1/2 hours before running out of juice. I don't know about you, but I can't listen to headphones longer than 4 hours without my ears getting itchy. But if I happen to run them down, which has only happened a couple of times, I put them in the case for 15 minutes and boom! I've got three more hours. Charging is not an issue.

The reason you think Bluetooth is poor quality and inconvenient is because you don't use Bluetooth. You're basing your opinion on obsolete information and not actual personal experience. I use Bluetooth every day. It is high quality and extremely convenient to use... More convenient than hauling around wired headphones. At home, I usually listen with my speaker system because it is the ultimate in sound quality. I use headphones when I'm out and about. I've never had any portable rig that was more convenient than my iPhone and AirPods Pro. You can try to tell me that they don't sound great and they aren't convenient, but I'm going to just think you don't know what you're talking about. I know from experience.

By the way, you are wrong about the dongle too. Headphones don't pull out of it any different than out of a standard headphone jack, and it doesn't pull out of the lightning port unless you want it to either. The dongle costs $8 and sounds as good to human ears as an audiophile DAC. It is incredibly convenient and high quality. In case you don't know what it looks like, here is a picture of it.

images


Want to use Bluetooth headphones to listen to an older component that doesn't have built in Bluetooth? Amazon is packed with cheap tiny Bluetooth receivers/transmitters like this. One dongle does it all.

61Ec7QYgaXL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


I have just explained to you how Bluetooth can be both high quality and convenient. You don't have to use it. Maybe you have some old school headphones that you have a sentimental attachment to. That is fine. Feel free to continue to use them. But when it comes to Bluetooth, get a clue.
 
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Sep 15, 2021 at 3:56 AM Post #40 of 303

MelodyMood

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The last post was my shot across the bow. If you continue to not make any attempt to understand what I'm saying, I'll talk past you and you won't like it. This is the last time I answer your questions respectfully.

I am not sure how you find it practical.

I am happy to explain why it's practical.

When I leave the house, I have my iPhone and my AirPods Pros in my shirt pocket. The phone I am already carrying. The AirPods are smaller than a box of tictacs. If I want to listen to music, I just put the AirPods in my ear and they connect automatically. I have Apple Music and I can listen to just about any album I want. I say, "Siri, play Talking Heads" and the music starts. I don't need to fumble with plugging in a jack. I can even do this while I'm driving without my eyes leaving the road. In my car, I have a 3.5 mm jack to plug into the car stereo, but I don't use it. Not because I don't have the ability to plug my phone into the car, but because the damn jack shorted out from being plugged and unplugged so many times. If my phone's ports shorted out like that, I would be royally pissed. It also is much more convenient to have the phone sitting on the seat next to me without being tethered to it by my ears. If I want to stop listening, I just pull out the AirPods and the music stops playing and my phone goes to sleep. I toss the AirPods in the change well and they go to sleep too. When I reach my destination, I put the AirPods back in the case and they immediately start charging. If I had wired headphones, it would be much less convenient.
Not completely agree with you here brother. 1st, the Airpod pros are not lightweight like earphones. You will have additional weight in your shirt's pocket. And ultimately you need to ensure that they are charged. if for some reason you did not charge them, then you cannot use them at all. So basically one will always need to be worried about if Bluetooth earphones are charged or not.

And Jack shorted out or Phone USB Port Shorted out, that I am worrying while Dongle is used.

See, basically, I find BT very inconvenient. My cousin gifted me some expensive BT earphones but I could hardly used them. I guess may be for experiment purpose I used them once but that is all. They are not Airpods and I cannot keep charging them for use and also keep BT on in my phone which will drain phone battery also.

Apart from that, there is no BT earphones which has actually earbud design. They all are in ear and I don't find them comfortable to use.

On top of that, using Bluetooth is also not good for health. So I refrain from using them. But I am not saying that cannot or should not use. But for me, they are very inconvenient and possibly dangerous too to use from health perspective.

Bluetooth sound quality has no match of Wired headset.

That is not true. My iPhone uses AAC for Bluetooth which is completely transparent. You can do a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind comparison for yourself between lossless and AAC Bluetooth and I defy you to discern any difference. Back in the early days of Bluetooth, codecs were not transparent. That isn't the case any more.

Did you see any professional Sound Recording is done on Bluetooth devices?

I am a professional in the TV business. I've supervised recording sessions and mixes. Professionals use calibrated speakers to monitor sound in the studio and listen critically. They don't use headphones for that. The only time headphones are used, it is for playback in recording where they need to isolate the performer from the playback. Bluetooth would be perfectly fine for that. So would cheap beater headphones. But we aren't talking about working in a recording studio. We are talking about listening to commercially recorded music in the home and on the go. Bluetooth is perfectly suited for that. Just as good as wired lossless.
I was talking form all perspective. Recording Studios do not use BT as they know that if they want quality, wired is the only way. Bluetooth is Wireless communication way only so there are high chances of losing some communication, which means poor or inferior sound quality than Wired one.
even if you place them in Charger case and they are always charged, ultimately you need to keep charging them

On the table next to my bed I have a charging pad. I set my AirPod case on it and it charges while I sleep. I have a mag safe charger for my phone, which just sticks to the back of the phone and charges it wirelessly. I don't even think about it. When I go to bed, I toss my wallet and keys on the table drop the AirPods on the pad and stick the magnet to the back of my phone. No plugging in lightning cables. No chance of wearing out the lightning port. When I wake up, everything is trickle charged and ready to go. I don't even think about charging it.

Since I got my iPhone, it's never been below 75% charged, even with heavy use. My AirPods go 4 1/2 hours before running out of juice. I don't know about you, but I can't listen to headphones longer than 4 hours without my ears getting itchy. But if I happen to run them down, which has only happened a couple of times, I put them in the case for 15 minutes and boom! I've got three more hours. Charging is not an issue.
I answered this above. Basically, you need to keep charging your Bluetooth Earphones and ensure that they are charged. If for some reason, you could not charge or have power issue or anything else, you cannot use earphones at all.
2nd thing, you will need to keep your BT on in your phone which will drain the battery additionally.
The reason you think Bluetooth is poor quality and inconvenient is because you don't use Bluetooth. You're basing your opinion on obsolete information and not actual personal experience. I use Bluetooth every day. It is high quality and extremely convenient to use... More convenient than hauling around wired headphones. At home, I usually listen with my speaker system because it is the ultimate in sound quality. I use headphones when I'm out and about. I've never had any portable rig that was more convenient than my iPhone and AirPods Pro. You can try to tell me that they don't sound great and they aren't convenient, but I'm going to just think you don't know what you're talking about. I know from experience.
I used BT earphones as I mentioned above. Did not find it convenient. It needs to keep charging and you need to ensure that your Phone BT is always on and eating your phone battery which I do not want and like. if you really, want, I can post the pic of my BT earphones so you know that I used them and not liked them at all.

By the way, you are wrong about the dongle too. Headphones don't pull out of it any different than out of a standard headphone jack, and it doesn't pull out of the lightning port unless you want it to either. The dongle costs $8 and sounds as good to human ears as an audiophile DAC. It is incredibly convenient and high quality. In case you don't know what it looks like, here is a picture of it.
That is my worry actually. I do not think that Dongle or Connector will be fixed permanently or very tight into your Phone and Earphones that it will not come out often. One may need to keep pushing and pulling the Dongle/Connector back into Earphone or phone to stay connected.
images


Want to use Bluetooth headphones to listen to an older component that doesn't have built in Bluetooth? Amazon is packed with cheap tiny Bluetooth receivers/transmitters like this. One dongle does it all.
I know about it brother. BT are there in phones for 20 years but these companies now find ways to increase sales and forcing people to use BT or Dongle by removing 3.5mm Jack. So it is not that they are providing better alternative, they are removing option so users are forced to buy BT Earphones or Dongles to talk or listen to music.
I have just explained to you how Bluetooth can be both high quality and convenient. You don't have to use it. Maybe you have some old school headphones that you have a sentimental attachment to. That is fine. Feel free to continue to use them. But when it comes to Bluetooth, get a clue.
Bluetooth !=High Quality. That I can assure you. It is Wireless.

And yes, I have many 3.5mm earphones which all will be totally waste if I use anything else. It is not exactly about sentiments but convenience too. None of the USB C Earpones or BT Earphones has Earbud kind of design (Flat head classic earphones). If these companies really want people to use USB C, then why don't they manufacturer F;at Head Earphones like Monk Plus, TP16, FiiO EM3, Edified H180 or RY4S etc. They are making in-ear earphones only and call them earbud :)
 
Sep 15, 2021 at 5:59 AM Post #41 of 303

bigshot

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AirPods Pro in their case weigh about 45 grams. Find a decent set of headphones that weigh less.

If a jack will short out with a dongle, it will short out with a headphone being plugged in and pulled out too.

Feel free not to use in ear. But they are convenient for many people. Your eccentrically shaped head holes only apply to you.

Your claim about bluetooth being unhealthy is complete bull crap. If Bluetooth is dangerous, then so is radio. That is where I stop reading and answering your ridiculous comments any further. You felt out don't know what you're talking about.

Have a nice day, champ! On the way out, pick up your consolation prize. Thanks for playing! Buh-Bye!

Why does Sound Science attract these people? Do they expect us to validate them? Do they just like to argue losing arguments? Are they just talking to themselves?
 
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Sep 15, 2021 at 6:22 AM Post #42 of 303

Sonic Defender

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Bluetooth is fantastic, audibly transparent sound is 100% possible, even the norm in my experience using many different Bluetooth implementations. I am personally absolutely fine with the end of the headphone jacks on phones. I own an LG G8X which has a decent set of features and sound quality through the 3.5mm jack. Haven't bothered with it and won't, I own nice Bluetooth headphones so no need. Upward and onward with innovation I say, and goodbye to cables which are so very, very yesterday, IMO.

The only negative aspect of the shift to full wireless might be increased redundancy and even more electronic waste as the built in electronics and batteries fail on Bluetooth headphones. The ideal situation is headphones that can be repaired and companies committed to modular designs where new electronics can be snapped into the headphone. I know that we are not there yet, but hopefully as the nations of the world band together to fight electronic waste this may become a reality. In fairness, wired headphones fail as well and unless they are quite pricey they get tossed in the garbage just as easily so even this aspect of the comparison isn't so cut and dry I expect. Anyway, Bluetooth all the way for me. If I never use another cabled headphone for the rest of my life I will sleep just fine. Again, just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Sep 15, 2021 at 6:25 AM Post #43 of 303

bigshot

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By the time electronics wear out, there’s something else that is better to get.
 
Sep 15, 2021 at 6:29 AM Post #44 of 303

Sonic Defender

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By the time electronics wear out, there’s something else that is better to get.
Not the reality I hope to embrace. If we are already at the point of being able to design audibly transparent circuits, and the headphone design is also very good, really shouldn't be throwing things out, nor encouraging it. That type of consumerism is extremely unethical and distasteful. I realize as it stands now it is clearly unavoidable, but our goal should be to change that. My brother and I still use a set of Pioneer HPM100 speakers to drum to music with and we have been using them since the 1980s. That should be the norm, not the exception.
 
Sep 15, 2021 at 6:35 AM Post #45 of 303

bigshot

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It's been true of all of my phones. I could replace the batteries, but there are so many new features and upgrades in the new models, it's not worth it. I think that is going to be true of bluetooth too as spatial audio gets more sophisticated. That will be a significant improvement over older headphones, and wired headphones won't be able to keep up. There's more to bluetooth headphones than just wireless playback. The AirPods Max point the way to something completely new.
 

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