[aimlink]

Quote:

 
 
That's exactly what my first possibility is! So are you saying that the optical out sounds fantastic or just OK  (& therefore the modified HIface)? 
 
What you are always coming back to is this - that the Ultradesktop's upsampling is making all your inputs equal sounding - now the question is - is this equally fantastic or equally mediocre (or somewhere in-between).
 
You see what I'm getting at:
Either you are hearing the best sound possible because your upsampler is doing a fabulous job on all inputs
OR
You are hearing all inputs the same but it's not the best sound possible

 
 
Is a DAC's sound reproduction determined only by jitter control, where-ever that happens?  How much difference in jitter is genuinely audible?

In terms of *jitter control*, I'm proposing that it could well be the best audible sound reproduction possible. This is exactly what I'm saying.  However, in terms of DAC performance, it may well not be the best sound reproduction possible.

 

[Pacha]

The attenuator from minicircuits is rated at a very decent price ($12), unfortunately shipping costs for the lowest priced shipping solution is $92!!
I've asked them to ship via EMS for cheap, they agreed, but it's still $29!
Did you guys managed to have these lightweight attenuators shipped for a decent price?

 

[sleepy dan]

I found the article and could find no measurements of a deviation in frequency response.  This isn't surprising, as there is no way a bit perfect device can alter either the volume or the frequency response.  saying otherwise is like saying two identical objects are different - i.e. a logical contradiction.
 
The reason I mention this is that saying there is a 3dB treble tilt implies some objective measurement has been made, when clearly there hasn't, and it's very important not to "twist" or put "spin" on things, as you reminded Jkeny.
 
What is possible is that someone perceives the Hiface as being brighter as it has a different jitter spectrum than what they are used to.  It is well know that low frequency jitter makes the sound fatter.  The CA measurements show the Hiface to have low levels of jitter, particularly at low frequencies.  So, if one is used to listening to transports that sound fatter than neutral due to low frequency jitter, it's plausible that switching to the Hiface alters the balance of the whole system to sound thinner.  But of course it's wrong to blame the Hiface for sounding "thin".
 
Again, there is no treble tilt or volume boost with the Hiface, and if you believe otherwise the best thing to do is educate yourself on the issue at hand .... or just listen to something else that gives you more enjoyment.  But making uniinformed objective claims helps no-one.
 

 
Quote:

IIRC it came from a CA Legato review that I linked to a few pages back.  Let me know if you can't find it.
 
There was also a short discussion of the HF "playing louder", either in this thread or the "sensitive information" thread.
 
To be accurate,  the treble tilt is the observation of many people I've talk to about the (stock) HiFace (including myself), playing  3dbs louder comes from the Legato review.... (also the stock HF.)
 
I've done some pretty extensive comparisons with the Blue Circle Thingee which I had before the HiFace and I've done similar comparisons with forum members at some of the meets.  The upshot is that the USB Thingee pretty much sounds exactly like optical or coaxial into the Stello and Benchmark I DACs as well as  the North Star, Constantine and Stello on my home rigs.  By sounds pretty much the same I mean that there is no tonal shift (bass or treble accentuation) to the sound as compared to previously mentioned DACs other inputs.  This is not the case with the HiFace, which is immediately noticed to be treble tilted and bass light,  when compared via quick switching,  to the  neutral rendition of the  Thingee.
 
The HF treble tilt is a bitter pill to swallow  for those who have perceived extra detail a the top,  but when you combine a treble tilt with a volume boost, the result is the same kind of perceived "pseudo details" that can reproduced by boosting the volume and EQing the treble of a neutral transport like the BCT.
 
USG

 

[sleepy dan]

No, there are many factors that determine the sound of a DAC.  Jitter is just one, but it is a big one.  Our ears are especially sensitive to it as it is generally non-harmonic.  How much is audible?  I'm afraid there is no simple answer to that.
 
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you talk about "the best audible sound reproduction possible" .....?  If you want to really kill jitter, the best way is to have some kind of sync-lock between DAC and transport.  Upsampling also works, but is a compromise, although it can be a very good one if done well.
 
Quote:

 

Is a DAC's sound reproduction determined only by jitter control, where-ever that happens?  How much difference in jitter is genuinely audible?

In terms of *jitter control*, I'm proposing that it could well be the best audible sound reproduction possible. This is exactly what I'm saying.  However, in terms of DAC performance, it may well not be the best sound reproduction possible.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

No, there are many factors that determine the sound of a DAC.  Jitter is just one, but it is a big one.  Our ears are especially sensitive to it as it is generally non-harmonic.  How much is audible?  I'm afraid there is no simple answer to that.
 
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you talk about "the best audible sound reproduction possible" .....?  If you want to really kill jitter, the best way is to have some kind of sync-lock between DAC and transport.  Upsampling also works, but is a compromise, although it can be a very good one if done well.
 

I mean best audible sound reproduction that my DAC is capable of once jitter is reduced to a level where further reduction leads to minimal if any audible improvement.  It's not well established just how much jitter has to be present for us to detect it or any further reduction in it.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

 
 
The reason I mention this is that saying there is a 3dB treble tilt implies some objective measurement has been made, when clearly there hasn't, and it's very important not to "twist" or put "spin" on things, as you reminded Jkeny.
 
 
Again, there is no treble tilt or volume boost with the Hiface, and if you believe otherwise the best thing to do is educate yourself on the issue at hand .... or just listen to something else that gives you more enjoyment.  But making uniinformed objective claims helps no-one.
 
 

 
 
Hi Sleepy
 
That the HiFace plays louder is a reality. 
 
There is a reason for this and I suggest you take your own advice and find out why.
 
USG
 

 

[mmerrill99]

Unsupported claims, as usual, USG,. No matter how many people disagree with you & point out your lack of understanding, you still persist in this. What's your agenda here?

 

[sleepy dan]

Quote:

Unsupported claims, as usual, USG,. No matter how many people disagree with you & point out your lack of understanding, you still persist in this. What's your agenda here?

 
There is no loudness issue.  There is not treble tilt.  There is no mass recall.  The clock issue at best is highly dubious.  
 
His agenda seems to be to spread misinformation, but why, who can guess.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

You guys are way too harsh on USG, he just shared his findings. Every system is different, may be his setup is on the bright side and hiface just revealed what was masked by Blue Circle, he also might be overly sensitive to high frequencies too. And just to remind everyone, it wasn't USG who brought up the clock issue first.

 

[mmerrill99]

Andrew, if all he was doing was reporting anomalies in his system with the use of the Hiface, then you would have a point BUT he is using every opportunity to lambast the Hiface & the company M2tech with unfounded & inaccurate statements. He has shown no interest in doing any test to prove his statement preferring to repeat, ad-nauseum, his false claims. I seem to remember you even asked what the agenda is. He has it up for sale anyway so why does he persist? Although why would anyone want to buy this obviously flawed device particularly for the $150 he is asking for it? 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

.....why does he persist?

Why do you persist? 
 
Never mind, I know.  
 
USG
 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

 ..... false claims.
 

 
Now I guess I'll have to post this here as well.
 
I suppose we should clear up some issues.
 
This is the e-mail that was sent to me from Mike at Tweak Geek:
 
“M2Tech is replacing anybody's hiFace for new MEC clocked and firmwared hiFaces. I was told that even if someone thinks they have a hiFace with a small clock that they can exchange it . That makes sense since M2Tech did not want customers opening their hiFaces up.”
 
Now let’s clear up why the HiFace plays louder.  The Legato review I linked to contains this post :  HERE
 
Gang,
 
Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
Thanks
Gordon
__________________
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio

 

[mmerrill99]

Just continually repeating these things on various threads will not make them true.
The answer to both of points is over on the other thread where you posted them http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503323/hiface-sensitive-information/345#post_6929290
You are selling your Hiface - why not let all this go, it's leading you nowhere! 

 

[regal]

Quote:

 
Gang,
 
Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
Thanks
Gordon
__________________
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio

 Fact is that a proper DAC will play 24 bit and 16 bit padded to 24 bit and plain 16 bit at the same level,  for example my AudioGN and AudioAlchemy DAC's have the same volume level whether the Hiface is the transport or any other product is the transport.  Thats what a good DAC does.  When you throw asynch upsampling (scrambling) in the mix instead of proper oversampling,  who knows what kind of volume differences will manifest.  The interface between the digital receiver and the upsampler or oversampling filter has to be set up just right to handle all bit depths,  I know I have set these up myself and it is not easy.  Budget DAC's sometimes don't get it perfect,  I've seen it.
 
I guess what I am saying is the Hiface isn't meant for everyone,  you must have a decent DAC and amplifier for it to be worth the trouble and even then the Hiface should be modded.   If you own a DACMajic or other budget DAC stick with a budget transport,  really the very last thing you upgrade is the transport otherwise its just a painful worthless upgrade.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

 Fact is that a proper DAC will play 24 bit and 16 bit padded to 24 bit and plain 16 bit at the same level,  for example my AudioGN and AudioAlchemy DAC's have the same volume level whether the Hiface is the transport or any other product is the transport.  Thats what a good DAC does.  When you throw asynch upsampling (scrambling) in the mix instead of proper oversampling,  who knows what kind of volume differences will manifest.  The interface between the digital receiver and the upsampler or oversampling filter has to be set up just right to handle all bit depths,  I know I have set these up myself and it is not easy.  Budget DAC's sometimes don't get it perfect,  I've seen it.
 
I guess what I am saying is the Hiface isn't meant for everyone,  you must have a decent DAC and amplifier for it to be worth the trouble and even then the Hiface should be modded.   If you own a DACMajic or other budget DAC stick with a budget transport,  really the very last thing you upgrade is the transport otherwise its just a painful worthless upgrade.

I hear you Regal, and I'm not questioning what you say, but I have 3 DACS, up and running, none of which I would classify as budget DACs, with three different categories of amps, that I also wouldn't call budget amps and the HiFace plays louder in all of them, just they way it was reported in the Legato review I linked to. And it can't be discounted that in the Legato review, that the HiFace was noted to play louder enough (than the Legato), that they were talking about it....  and this with a 5K Berkley Alpha DAC.   Then there was the post by Gordon Rankin.  Was that complete BS or was there something to what he said, because I would sure like to believe that he wasn't BSing the forum with pseudo-science?  In addition, the same "playing louder"  was also mentioned by Shahrose and Digger, who also don't' have budget amps or DACs either, so I find it quite confusing when I try to understand the technicality of what's going on.
 
On another note, I dragged out the HiFace and connected it to my Stello DAC which has defeatable upampling.  As I toggled back and forth between upsampling and bypass I could tell that you were absolutely right about upsampling being a bottle neck.  There is no question that upsampling seems to neutralize (for lack of a better word) what ever benefits the stock HiFace has to offer and curiously, the upsampling mode made the sound slightly quieter, or more mellow and uniform, which is the opposite of the way it usually works.  But in general,  the sound was still on the treble tilted side of neutral and the tone seemed off on the pianos because of it.
 
I also know that you feel the treble tilt that I'm experiencing with the HF is  because I'm used to listening to low level jitter, but never the less, it's as present as "the playing louder" phenomena and I'm hard pressed to say that one isn't caused by, or is the effect of, the other.  And regarding what I'm used to listening to, I listened to Nate's 150lb Menace rig at one of the NY meets and it sounded exceptionally good, so I think I know good when I hear it, it's just that I don't think I'm hearing good when I use the unmodded HiFace.
 
It's troubling that the stock HiFace seems to do better with my NOS Constantine and Stello (with upsampling off) than it does with the North Star which was specifically purchased for the usb needy, secondary, laptop rig.
 
Now that I've covered all the things you don't agree with,   what's your take on the small clock - large clock issue.  Do you think the small clock is sonically inferior to the large clock or do you think, as some have said, that there is no sonic difference between the two?
 
USG